Were the prophecies mentioned in Revelation fulfilled in the 1rst Century?

[Andrew]

Well, if that's true they are doing a pretty poor job of ruling.

Yeah, I can understand some of Revelation is poetic and very symbolic but Paul was preaching His return up until his death, he thought this would all happen in his lifetime, having the Holy Spirit is not the return of Christ, like I said this is all news to me but I'm interested in preterist interpretation

 

[Andrew]

the thousands of years of evil and thousand years reign? There are many different views on this in preterism as with dispensationalism. I hold to this view of the 1000 years. It is poetic not lateral. It just means along time or many.

For instance: For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills.
Psalms 50:10 so just 1000 there or more hills in the world than just a 1000. So its poetic just means many.

So when was the 1000 year reign of christ in the first century. From the time he started his ministry" behold the kingdom of God is at hand" until ad 70 when everything was fullfilled. Say that's not a long time. Yet it was along time to them listen to what Peter says to the first century believers.

this first knowing, that there shall come in the latter end of the days scoffers, according to their own desires going on, and saying, ‘Where is the promise of his presence? for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation;’ for this is unobserved by them willingly, that the heavens were of old, and the earth out of water and through water standing together by the word of God, through which the then world, by water having been deluged, was destroyed; and the present heavens and the earth, by the same word are treasured, for fire being kept to a day of judgment and destruction of the impious men. And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day; the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is longsuffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation, and it will come — the day of the Lord — as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.
2 Peter 3:3‭-‬10

Why did the first second and third century church fathers preach on the prophecies?
Because jews believed that he was to set up a physical kingdom not a spiritual kingdom. They were still looking for the physical. Sounds like a despensationalist view. They missed the point of worshiping in spirit and in truth.

If it's not the future then it's the past, what do you call a perpetual vantage point?

I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Revelation 21:22‭-‬27

We are kind of the earth reigning with christ to draw all nations to him. Those that are outside we must give the invitation to accept a relationship with christ.

If it was a world order that you get a chip in your hand (and if you dont have a hand then your forehead) in order to buy or sell.. Would you be so convinced of your views that you take the chip without a grain of salt? Lol personally no I dont want one I dont like anything inside my body that doesn't belong but do I believe this is the mark of the beast no I do not.

My thumbs hurt now I'm going to ice them

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Thank you for answering my questions, I finally got the chance to read them thoroughly and I'm not afraid to say that a lot of it makes sense.
Revelation is so loved by Christians but it has also given rise to so many contradicting ideas and interpretations which makes it impossible to take any evangelical seriously. I've heard just about everything, and all of these men speaking for God claim they have figured it all out, this means this and that just happened etc...
It's a breathe of fresh air to hear your approach as it leaves out all the physical literal signs people expect to see, and history does repeat itself so of course many things can appear as such.. Still a lot of questions to be asked and answered because I like to investigate all Christian views to see if they hold water.
One fellow years back mentioned something that the moon being darkened and the sun losing it's glow was likened to old age, I remembered thinking "well that makes more since then the world ending everytime there is a solar eclipse"...
Wasn't the book of Revelation even "pending" for a good long while before the Church accepted it into canon? I know Luther didn't care for it, it's in his writings.
Anyway fascinating stuff, a vision of the transfiguration of Christ with Moses and Elijia was still a vision as recorded in thay account, you can't touch a vision, but you can understand it's meaning.. Moses represents the Law, Elijah the Prophets, Jesus the Redeemer.. the disciples the witnesses..

 

[New Age Outlaw]

The preterist believe that all believers are reigning with Christ on earth right now, it's why Jesus says "the kingdom is at hand", but I have yet to hear a verse by verse commentary of Revelation under this view since they use a historical approach.

Well, if that's true they are doing a pretty poor job of ruling.

Well I disagree @jsimms435 the gospel started with 11 men in the first century and
Now look were the gospel message has spread. Even now in the Muslim community there are underground Christian churches for Muslim converts.

Also what I believe hurts us in America is that we hold to a dispensationalism view point which is that everything is going to get worse and there is nothing we can do about it the devil is in control of this world not God. So we just sit and wait to be raptured out of this world (which is not going to happen) and we don't get out and try to bring ppl to christ. Or end times view has a lot to do with how we see the world.

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[New Age Outlaw]

Yeah, I can understand some of Revelation is poetic and very symbolic but Paul was preaching His return up until his death, he thought this would all happen in his lifetime, having the Holy Spirit is not the return of Christ, like I said this is all news to me but I'm interested in preterist interpretation

Redemption and adoption of sons to the father thru christ was what they waited for.

And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
Romans 8:23‭-‬25

They hoped they have been saved so then they had not yet.

The fall of Adam hindered there relationship they wanted that back.

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[NewCreation435]

The preterist believe that all believers are reigning with Christ on earth right now, it's why Jesus says "the kingdom is at hand", but I have yet to hear a verse by verse commentary of Revelation under this view since they use a historical approach.



Well I disagree @jsimms435 the gospel started with 11 men in the first century and
Now look were the gospel message has spread. Even now in the Muslim community there are underground Christian churches for Muslim converts.

Also what I believe hurts us in America is that we hold to a dispensationalism view point which is that everything is going to get worse and there is nothing we can do about it the devil is in control of this world not God. So we just sit and wait to be raptured out of this world (which is not going to happen) and we don't get out and try to bring ppl to christ. Or end times view has a lot to do with how we see the world.

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That wasn't what I was talking about. My response was to the idea that the believers were reigning with Christ now on the earth. Yet, we don't see that anywhere in the world. There will be a day when the believers will reign with Christ, but that hasn't happened yet. If it had and Christ was on the earth then and reigning the world would look very different than it does today

 

[New Age Outlaw]

That wasn't what I was talking about. My response was to the idea that the believers were reigning with Christ now on the earth. Yet, we don't see that anywhere in the world. There will be a day when the believers will reign with Christ, but that hasn't happened yet. If it had and Christ was on the earth then and reigning the world would look very different than it does today

You hold to a veiw of a physical Jerusalem which christ says his self will not happen.

Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4:21‭-‬24 NASB

Its spiritual not physical.

Again it's a end times issue on how u view it. Look at what john says.

John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 1:4‭-‬6

Who are kings of the earth and preterist and in the kingdom? He said us (believers).

What do the kings do?

I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Revelation 21:22‭-‬27

The kings draw all nations to him and how if in the new heaven and earth this is supposed to be no sin is there ones who practice abomination.

The gates of heaven are not closed but open welcoming ppl in.

So dose this mean that ppl in heaven can go to hell and bring them out after the final judgment is done and all are put were they are supposed to spend eternity?


Or the new heaven and earth is a place were believers kings and preterist that are in the kingdom bring ppl to christ to a relationship with him because now God dwells in man and not in a temple. He dose not wish any should perish but all come to eternal life.



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[NewCreation435]

You hold to a veiw of a physical Jerusalem which christ says his self will not happen.

Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4:21‭-‬24 NASB

Its spiritual not physical.

Again it's a end times issue on how u view it. Look at what john says.

John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 1:4‭-‬6

Who are kings of the earth and preterist and in the kingdom? He said us (believers).

What do the kings do?

I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Revelation 21:22‭-‬27

The kings draw all nations to him and how if in the new heaven and earth this is supposed to be no sin is there ones who practice abomination.

The gates of heaven are not closed but open welcoming ppl in.

So dose this mean that ppl in heaven can go to hell and bring them out after the final judgment is done and all are put were they are supposed to spend eternity?


Or the new heaven and earth is a place were believers kings and preterist that are in the kingdom bring ppl to christ to a relationship with him because now God dwells in man and not in a temple. He dose not wish any should perish but all come to eternal life.



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Taking John 4 out of context doesn't prove anything. He wasn't talking about the end times in that passage

 

[New Age Outlaw]

Taking John 4 out of context doesn't prove anything. He wasn't talking about the end times in that passage

So we should still worship in the temple in Jerusalem?

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[NewCreation435]

So we should still worship in the temple in Jerusalem?

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Your getting your issues confused. When Jesus was taking to the Samaritan woman he was correcting her assumption that there was an appropriate place to worship such as in either Samaria or Jerusalem. That was the issue. However, there are multiple references throughout scripture that talk about Jesus coming back physically and his feet touching the Mount of Olives. That is not symbolic, but is a physical reality. The angel said to the disciples when they saw his ascension that he would return in the same way they saw him rise. That was also not symbolic, but a physical reality. There are also multiple references to the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, which hasn't happened yet for example in Isaiah chapter 2:1-5.

 

[New Age Outlaw]

He also told the woman God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in SPIRIT and truth.”

I think the worship in spirit is very important.

Ok so let's see how he will come.

Daniel 7:13 NASB — “I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.

Matthew 24:30 NASB — “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Mark 13:26 NASB — “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 NASB — And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”

Luke 21:27 NASB — “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.


Revelation 1:7 NASB — BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.


So he is coming in the clouds how did they see him go?


Acts 1:9 NASB — And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a CLOUD received Him out of their sight.

how did God come in judgment in the old testament? in the clouds.

Did anyone see him no because he is spirit.

Jesus came in a cloud of judgment on Israel in the first century.

And when Jesus went up into the cloud. He wasn't physical how dose a physical body walk thru walls disappear and reappear not need rest? Also a physical body conflicts with flesh and blood not inheriting heaven.

So when God came in judgment in the clouds he always used armys to do his destruction. Same way christ did with Rome.

In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
Zechariah 14:4

I do believe what u are referring to.


When the Seleucid army entered Jerusalem for the second time, they killed many Jews, plundered Jerusalem, lit the city on fire, and took many captives (1 Maccabees 1:29-40). Meanwhile according to 1 Maccabees 1:38 many Jews fled Jerusalem in fulfillment of Zechariah 14:5. 1 Maccabees 1:38 reads, “Because of them [the Seleucid army] the inhabitants of Jerusalem fled away, she [Jerusalem] became the abode of strangers. She became a stranger to her own offspring and her children forsook her.” Did these refugees flee over the mount of olives?

The fact that the Lord stands on the Mount of Olives and it splits in Zechariah 14:4 is similar to Micah 1:3-4: “Look! The Lord is coming from his dwelling place; he comes down and treads on the heights of the earth. The mountains melt beneath him and the valleys split apart, like wax before the fire, like water rushing down a slope [emphasis mine].” Notice that Micah 1:3-4 is nearly identical to Zechariah 14:4. In both verses the Lord walks or stands on a mountain or valley and it splits. Did the Lord physically tread, walk or stand causing a mountain or valley to split apart and melt like wax before a fire as stated in Micah 1:3-4? The fact that God was to stand on the Mt. of Olives is similar to the coming of the Lord during the plague of the firstborn as it is recorded in Wisdom 18:15-16: “Your all-powerful word from heaven’s royal throne leapt into the doomed land, a fierce warrior bearing the sharp sword of your inexorable decree, and alighted, and filled every place with death, and touched heaven, while standing upon the earth.” Did God stand visibly on the earth during the plague of the firstborn as described in Wisdom 18:15?
Predictions like Micah 1:3-4 and Zechariah 14:4 concerning the splitting of mountains or valleys under the feet of the Lord are written in apocalyptic style. Apocalyptic language like that which is found in Zechariah 14:4 and related predictions like Isaiah 26:7, Isaiah 40:4, Isaiah 49:11 and Micah 1:3-6 is highly poetic and symbolic and therefore often hyperbolic. Though it is unlikely that the God of Israel would ever stand or walk on a mountain or valley and cause it to literally split in two presumably as a consequence of His massive size or great weight, there is generally a literal core of truth to apocalyptic language.4 See How and Why Prophecies with Apocalyptic Imagery May Have Been Fulfilled in Old Testament History Much More Literally than Previously Thought. Though it is unlikely anyone would see God stand on a mountain or valley causing it to split, I believe it is not unreasonable to expect the Mt. of Olives to have been—at least in some way—split as predicted in Zechariah 14:4-5.
And indeed it was and is! The Mt. of Olives was, in fact, split down the middle by a Roman road that formed a valley through the middle of the mountain at least as far back as first century A.D. Above is a photograph of the Mount of Olives taken sometime between 1890 and 1900 showing the Mount of Olives split in two by a road. During the first century, this road pictured above did, in fact, split the Mount of Olives in two to the north and south.

Photo above is of the Mount of Olives and Gethsemane. 1890-1900. Photochrome Print

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[NewCreation435]

He also told the woman God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in SPIRIT and truth.”

I think the worship in spirit is very important.

Ok so let's see how he will come.

Daniel 7:13 NASB — “I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.

Matthew 24:30 NASB — “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Mark 13:26 NASB — “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 NASB — And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”

Luke 21:27 NASB — “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.


Revelation 1:7 NASB — BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.


So he is coming in the clouds how did they see him go?


Acts 1:9 NASB — And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a CLOUD received Him out of their sight.

how did God come in judgment in the old testament? in the clouds.

Did anyone see him no because he is spirit.

Jesus came in a cloud of judgment on Israel in the first century.

And when Jesus went up into the cloud. He wasn't physical how dose a physical body walk thru walls disappear and reappear not need rest? Also a physical body conflicts with flesh and blood not inheriting heaven.

So when God came in judgment in the clouds he always used armys to do his destruction. Same way christ did with Rome.

In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
Zechariah 14:4

I do believe what u are referring to.


When the Seleucid army entered Jerusalem for the second time, they killed many Jews, plundered Jerusalem, lit the city on fire, and took many captives (1 Maccabees 1:29-40). Meanwhile according to 1 Maccabees 1:38 many Jews fled Jerusalem in fulfillment of Zechariah 14:5. 1 Maccabees 1:38 reads, “Because of them [the Seleucid army] the inhabitants of Jerusalem fled away, she [Jerusalem] became the abode of strangers. She became a stranger to her own offspring and her children forsook her.” Did these refugees flee over the mount of olives?

The fact that the Lord stands on the Mount of Olives and it splits in Zechariah 14:4 is similar to Micah 1:3-4: “Look! The Lord is coming from his dwelling place; he comes down and treads on the heights of the earth. The mountains melt beneath him and the valleys split apart, like wax before the fire, like water rushing down a slope [emphasis mine].” Notice that Micah 1:3-4 is nearly identical to Zechariah 14:4. In both verses the Lord walks or stands on a mountain or valley and it splits. Did the Lord physically tread, walk or stand causing a mountain or valley to split apart and melt like wax before a fire as stated in Micah 1:3-4? The fact that God was to stand on the Mt. of Olives is similar to the coming of the Lord during the plague of the firstborn as it is recorded in Wisdom 18:15-16: “Your all-powerful word from heaven’s royal throne leapt into the doomed land, a fierce warrior bearing the sharp sword of your inexorable decree, and alighted, and filled every place with death, and touched heaven, while standing upon the earth.” Did God stand visibly on the earth during the plague of the firstborn as described in Wisdom 18:15?
Predictions like Micah 1:3-4 and Zechariah 14:4 concerning the splitting of mountains or valleys under the feet of the Lord are written in apocalyptic style. Apocalyptic language like that which is found in Zechariah 14:4 and related predictions like Isaiah 26:7, Isaiah 40:4, Isaiah 49:11 and Micah 1:3-6 is highly poetic and symbolic and therefore often hyperbolic. Though it is unlikely that the God of Israel would ever stand or walk on a mountain or valley and cause it to literally split in two presumably as a consequence of His massive size or great weight, there is generally a literal core of truth to apocalyptic language.4 See How and Why Prophecies with Apocalyptic Imagery May Have Been Fulfilled in Old Testament History Much More Literally than Previously Thought. Though it is unlikely anyone would see God stand on a mountain or valley causing it to split, I believe it is not unreasonable to expect the Mt. of Olives to have been—at least in some way—split as predicted in Zechariah 14:4-5.
And indeed it was and is! The Mt. of Olives was, in fact, split down the middle by a Roman road that formed a valley through the middle of the mountain at least as far back as first century A.D. Above is a photograph of the Mount of Olives taken sometime between 1890 and 1900 showing the Mount of Olives split in two by a road. During the first century, this road pictured above did, in fact, split the Mount of Olives in two to the north and south.

Photo above is of the Mount of Olives and Gethsemane. 1890-1900. Photochrome Print

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Thank you, you just proven my point

 

[Andrew]

He also told the woman God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in SPIRIT and truth.”

I think the worship in spirit is very important.

Ok so let's see how he will come.

Daniel 7:13 NASB — “I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.

Matthew 24:30 NASB — “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Mark 13:26 NASB — “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 NASB — And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”

Luke 21:27 NASB — “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.


Revelation 1:7 NASB — BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.


So he is coming in the clouds how did they see him go?


Acts 1:9 NASB — And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a CLOUD received Him out of their sight.

how did God come in judgment in the old testament? in the clouds.

Did anyone see him no because he is spirit.

Jesus came in a cloud of judgment on Israel in the first century.

And when Jesus went up into the cloud. He wasn't physical how dose a physical body walk thru walls disappear and reappear not need rest? Also a physical body conflicts with flesh and blood not inheriting heaven.

So when God came in judgment in the clouds he always used armys to do his destruction. Same way christ did with Rome.

In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
Zechariah 14:4

I do believe what u are referring to.


When the Seleucid army entered Jerusalem for the second time, they killed many Jews, plundered Jerusalem, lit the city on fire, and took many captives (1 Maccabees 1:29-40). Meanwhile according to 1 Maccabees 1:38 many Jews fled Jerusalem in fulfillment of Zechariah 14:5. 1 Maccabees 1:38 reads, “Because of them [the Seleucid army] the inhabitants of Jerusalem fled away, she [Jerusalem] became the abode of strangers. She became a stranger to her own offspring and her children forsook her.” Did these refugees flee over the mount of olives?

The fact that the Lord stands on the Mount of Olives and it splits in Zechariah 14:4 is similar to Micah 1:3-4: “Look! The Lord is coming from his dwelling place; he comes down and treads on the heights of the earth. The mountains melt beneath him and the valleys split apart, like wax before the fire, like water rushing down a slope [emphasis mine].” Notice that Micah 1:3-4 is nearly identical to Zechariah 14:4. In both verses the Lord walks or stands on a mountain or valley and it splits. Did the Lord physically tread, walk or stand causing a mountain or valley to split apart and melt like wax before a fire as stated in Micah 1:3-4? The fact that God was to stand on the Mt. of Olives is similar to the coming of the Lord during the plague of the firstborn as it is recorded in Wisdom 18:15-16: “Your all-powerful word from heaven’s royal throne leapt into the doomed land, a fierce warrior bearing the sharp sword of your inexorable decree, and alighted, and filled every place with death, and touched heaven, while standing upon the earth.” Did God stand visibly on the earth during the plague of the firstborn as described in Wisdom 18:15?
Predictions like Micah 1:3-4 and Zechariah 14:4 concerning the splitting of mountains or valleys under the feet of the Lord are written in apocalyptic style. Apocalyptic language like that which is found in Zechariah 14:4 and related predictions like Isaiah 26:7, Isaiah 40:4, Isaiah 49:11 and Micah 1:3-6 is highly poetic and symbolic and therefore often hyperbolic. Though it is unlikely that the God of Israel would ever stand or walk on a mountain or valley and cause it to literally split in two presumably as a consequence of His massive size or great weight, there is generally a literal core of truth to apocalyptic language.4 See How and Why Prophecies with Apocalyptic Imagery May Have Been Fulfilled in Old Testament History Much More Literally than Previously Thought. Though it is unlikely anyone would see God stand on a mountain or valley causing it to split, I believe it is not unreasonable to expect the Mt. of Olives to have been—at least in some way—split as predicted in Zechariah 14:4-5.
And indeed it was and is! The Mt. of Olives was, in fact, split down the middle by a Roman road that formed a valley through the middle of the mountain at least as far back as first century A.D. Above is a photograph of the Mount of Olives taken sometime between 1890 and 1900 showing the Mount of Olives split in two by a road. During the first century, this road pictured above did, in fact, split the Mount of Olives in two to the north and south.

Photo above is of the Mount of Olives and Gethsemane. 1890-1900. Photochrome Print

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I don't believe Jesus shed his flesh when he ascended into Heaven, he had a physical body, ask doubting Thomas
Indeed it was a supernatural body, he could appear at will and transcend which I believe is how one can accept that Jesus is literally in the bread taken in communion..
Gnostics believed that Jesus was Spirit, Muslims believe Jesus did not die on the cross because Spirit cannot die (Quran is based on Gnostic elements)..

A few quick questions...
1. If we are in the Kingdom, why is there still death?
2. Why is the ground still cursed with weeds?
3. Why do we still work from the sweat of our brow?
4. How does a resurrection and the souls of those beheaded coincide with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD?
5. When did the church fall away?
6. What of the wars and rumours of wars during a time when there was no wars?
7. What about the native americans and those living on North Sentinal Island?

The only things I agree on is the poetic nature of the heavens collapsing signifying a gut feeling of hopelessness and despair in times of tribulation, Gods ordained destruction of the Temple and temple rites of unnecessary animal sacrifice and rites of the Sadducees ..

I would like more members to chime in @Josiah @Albion @Particular @Lämmchen @psalms 91 @RichWh1 @George

Have any of you heard of preterism? What are your thoughts?

New Age Outlaw, Jesus knew not the hour of his coming, only God knows, the Apostles knew not of his coming, only God knows, thus they all spoke in a "soon to come" sense because neither Jesus or his followers knew the day...

One more thing, can you pray the "Our Father" as a preterist seeing that the Kingdom has already come?

End note: we are still strangers in a foreign land, the 1rst century church did not see the romans destruction of the temple in 70 AD as the second coming, even though "son of man in the clouds of glory" signified a judgment in the OT from time to time, this judgment will be on the entire world and not "age", Jesus did say "I will be with you even until the end of the age", so if the age is fulfilled but there is still death.. I guess Jesus is no longer with us and we all "left behind"

"Some will not taste death"... apparently we all do, because the time has not come yet

 

[Lamb]

Andrew, I haven't participated in the thread because I'm not really well versed on the topic. I've heard of the preterist view before but Lutheran's aren't preterist even though we agree with some of the things they believe...just not in full.

 

[Mikie]

I don't believe Jesus shed his flesh when he ascended into Heaven, he had a physical body, ask doubting Thomas
Indeed it was a supernatural body, he could appear at will and transcend which I believe is how one can accept that Jesus is literally in the bread taken in communion..
Gnostics believed that Jesus was Spirit, Muslims believe Jesus did not die on the cross because Spirit cannot die (Quran is based on Gnostic elements)..

A few quick questions...
1. If we are in the Kingdom, why is there still death?
2. Why is the ground still cursed with weeds?
3. Why do we still work from the sweat of our brow?
4. How does a resurrection and the souls of those beheaded coincide with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD?
5. When did the church fall away?
6. What of the wars and rumours of wars during a time when there was no wars?
7. What about the native americans and those living on North Sentinal Island?

The only things I agree on is the poetic nature of the heavens collapsing signifying a gut feeling of hopelessness and despair in times of tribulation, Gods ordained destruction of the Temple and temple rites of unnecessary animal sacrifice and rites of the Sadducees ..

I would like more members to chime in @Josiah @Albion @Particular @Lämmchen @psalms 91 @RichWh1 @George

Have any of you heard of preterism? What are your thoughts?

New Age Outlaw, Jesus knew not the hour of his coming, only God knows, the Apostles knew not of his coming, only God knows, thus they all spoke in a "soon to come" sense because neither Jesus or his followers knew the day...

One more thing, can you pray the "Our Father" as a preterist seeing that the Kingdom has already come?

End note: we are still strangers in a foreign land, the 1rst century church did not see the romans destruction of the temple in 70 AD as the second coming, even though "son of man in the clouds of glory" signified a judgment in the OT from time to time, this judgment will be on the entire world and not "age", Jesus did say "I will be with you even until the end of the age", so if the age is fulfilled but there is still death.. I guess Jesus is no longer with us and we all "left behind"

"Some will not taste death"... apparently we all do, because the time has not come yet

Or the mosaic age ended and Jesus completed the obligations of the law and the messahaic age started which Jesus is the mediator of and this age never ends. It is a spiritual age where death doesn't exist and the mosaic age was a shadow of the messahic. Emmanuel God with us.

 

[New Age Outlaw]

So I believe that Jesus is spirit now but he died physically on the cross but he could not die spiritually. This is a picture of the believer if we are in christ we die physically because we are mortal, but because of the gift of eternal life we live on spiritually in eternity.

Jesus said him and his father are one and he lived with the father before coming and taking on the flesh. So God is spirit therefore Jesus also is spirit. Yes Thomas touched Jesus but does that make him physical? What about the angelic beings that destroyed sodom and gamorah angels are spirits yet they physical destroyed sodom and gamorah and the people in it.

What about the angel of the lord which many agree that this is christ before his physical body. He was seen on earth yet he was spirt.

The reason why I hold to a spiritual body is because of what paul said.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a SPIRITUAL body. If there is a natural body, there is also a SPIRITUAL body. So also it is written, “The first man , Adam, became a living soul .” The last Adam became a life-giving SPIRIT. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy(Adam); the second man is from heaven(Jesus). As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1 Corinthians 15:42‭-‬50

Paul clearly says that the physical cannot go to heaven. That heavenly is spiritual.

Idk how Jesus body was before he ascend into heaven you can say it was physical you can say it was spiritual but the fact is by sqripture physical cannot go to heaven.
I just go with sqripture what he was idk and I don't think we could wrap our minds around it even if we did know.

1. If we are in the Kingdom, why is there still death? Let's look a Adam God said in the day you eat there of you shall surely die. Yet he lived 930 years man say that adam was immortal before his fall but that can't be true he was man. So the death he suffered was spiritual. He was waking in the garden with God the when he sinned he was put out of the garden and could not walk with God in the garden.

2. Why is the ground still cursed with weeds?
3. Why do we still work from the sweat of our brow?

Where in scripture dose it say this will change? I think we get to literal with genesis the point of it was death paul says

For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:21‭-‬22

4. How does a resurrection and the souls of those beheaded coincide with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD? Those that did not worship Cesar in the last days were often beheaded and killed. The resected souls is that of old covenant Israel the 12 tribes of Israel.
And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:2‭-‬3

And also the New Israel those that believe in christ.

5. When did the church fall away?
It dosen't say the church will fall away. Futuristic view gets that from here.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The apostasy had started happening look in to the history of the jews worshipping Cesar.
They cried out, "Away with him, away with him, crucify him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar."
John 19:15

When Titus Titus Cesar entered the temple and set up the images or the roman empire and of Cesar the Jews and Roman worshiped him.

6. What of the wars and rumours of wars during a time when there was no wars?

Yes it's called the Jewish wars check out Josephus.

7. What about the native americans and those living on North Sentinal Island?
Not sure what ur asking here?

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[Andrew]

He also told the woman God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in SPIRIT and truth.”

I think the worship in spirit is very important.

Ok so let's see how he will come.

Daniel 7:13 NASB — “I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.

Matthew 24:30 NASB — “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Mark 13:26 NASB — “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 NASB — And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”

Luke 21:27 NASB — “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.


Revelation 1:7 NASB — BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.


So he is coming in the clouds how did they see him go?


Acts 1:9 NASB — And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a CLOUD received Him out of their sight.

how did God come in judgment in the old testament? in the clouds.

Did anyone see him no because he is spirit.

Jesus came in a cloud of judgment on Israel in the first century.

And when Jesus went up into the cloud. He wasn't physical how dose a physical body walk thru walls disappear and reappear not need rest? Also a physical body conflicts with flesh and blood not inheriting heaven.

So when God came in judgment in the clouds he always used armys to do his destruction. Same way christ did with Rome.

In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
Zechariah 14:4

I do believe what u are referring to.


When the Seleucid army entered Jerusalem for the second time, they killed many Jews, plundered Jerusalem, lit the city on fire, and took many captives (1 Maccabees 1:29-40). Meanwhile according to 1 Maccabees 1:38 many Jews fled Jerusalem in fulfillment of Zechariah 14:5. 1 Maccabees 1:38 reads, “Because of them [the Seleucid army] the inhabitants of Jerusalem fled away, she [Jerusalem] became the abode of strangers. She became a stranger to her own offspring and her children forsook her.” Did these refugees flee over the mount of olives?

The fact that the Lord stands on the Mount of Olives and it splits in Zechariah 14:4 is similar to Micah 1:3-4: “Look! The Lord is coming from his dwelling place; he comes down and treads on the heights of the earth. The mountains melt beneath him and the valleys split apart, like wax before the fire, like water rushing down a slope [emphasis mine].” Notice that Micah 1:3-4 is nearly identical to Zechariah 14:4. In both verses the Lord walks or stands on a mountain or valley and it splits. Did the Lord physically tread, walk or stand causing a mountain or valley to split apart and melt like wax before a fire as stated in Micah 1:3-4? The fact that God was to stand on the Mt. of Olives is similar to the coming of the Lord during the plague of the firstborn as it is recorded in Wisdom 18:15-16: “Your all-powerful word from heaven’s royal throne leapt into the doomed land, a fierce warrior bearing the sharp sword of your inexorable decree, and alighted, and filled every place with death, and touched heaven, while standing upon the earth.” Did God stand visibly on the earth during the plague of the firstborn as described in Wisdom 18:15?
Predictions like Micah 1:3-4 and Zechariah 14:4 concerning the splitting of mountains or valleys under the feet of the Lord are written in apocalyptic style. Apocalyptic language like that which is found in Zechariah 14:4 and related predictions like Isaiah 26:7, Isaiah 40:4, Isaiah 49:11 and Micah 1:3-6 is highly poetic and symbolic and therefore often hyperbolic. Though it is unlikely that the God of Israel would ever stand or walk on a mountain or valley and cause it to literally split in two presumably as a consequence of His massive size or great weight, there is generally a literal core of truth to apocalyptic language.4 See How and Why Prophecies with Apocalyptic Imagery May Have Been Fulfilled in Old Testament History Much More Literally than Previously Thought. Though it is unlikely anyone would see God stand on a mountain or valley causing it to split, I believe it is not unreasonable to expect the Mt. of Olives to have been—at least in some way—split as predicted in Zechariah 14:4-5.
And indeed it was and is! The Mt. of Olives was, in fact, split down the middle by a Roman road that formed a valley through the middle of the mountain at least as far back as first century A.D. Above is a photograph of the Mount of Olives taken sometime between 1890 and 1900 showing the Mount of Olives split in two by a road. During the first century, this road pictured above did, in fact, split the Mount of Olives in two to the north and south.

Photo above is of the Mount of Olives and Gethsemane. 1890-1900. Photochrome Print

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So what happened to Jesus physical body if he only ascended as spirit into heaven?

 

[Andrew]

So I believe that Jesus is spirit now but he died physically on the cross but he could not die spiritually. This is a picture of the believer if we are in christ we die physically because we are mortal, but because of the gift of eternal life we live on spiritually in eternity.

Jesus said him and his father are one and he lived with the father before coming and taking on the flesh. So God is spirit therefore Jesus also is spirit. Yes Thomas touched Jesus but does that make him physical? What about the angelic beings that destroyed sodom and gamorah angels are spirits yet they physical destroyed sodom and gamorah and the people in it.

What about the angel of the lord which many agree that this is christ before his physical body. He was seen on earth yet he was spirt.

The reason why I hold to a spiritual body is because of what paul said.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a SPIRITUAL body. If there is a natural body, there is also a SPIRITUAL body. So also it is written, “The first man , Adam, became a living soul .” The last Adam became a life-giving SPIRIT. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy(Adam); the second man is from heaven(Jesus). As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1 Corinthians 15:42‭-‬50

Paul clearly says that the physical cannot go to heaven. That heavenly is spiritual.

Idk how Jesus body was before he ascend into heaven you can say it was physical you can say it was spiritual but the fact is by sqripture physical cannot go to heaven.
I just go with sqripture what he was idk and I don't think we could wrap our minds around it even if we did know.

1. If we are in the Kingdom, why is there still death? Let's look a Adam God said in the day you eat there of you shall surely die. Yet he lived 930 years man say that adam was immortal before his fall but that can't be true he was man. So the death he suffered was spiritual. He was waking in the garden with God the when he sinned he was put out of the garden and could not walk with God in the garden.

2. Why is the ground still cursed with weeds?
3. Why do we still work from the sweat of our brow?

Where in scripture dose it say this will change? I think we get to literal with genesis the point of it was death paul says

For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:21‭-‬22

4. How does a resurrection and the souls of those beheaded coincide with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD? Those that did not worship Cesar in the last days were often beheaded and killed. The resected souls is that of old covenant Israel the 12 tribes of Israel.
And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:2‭-‬3

And also the New Israel those that believe in christ.

5. When did the church fall away?
It dosen't say the church will fall away. Futuristic view gets that from here.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The apostasy had started happening look in to the history of the jews worshipping Cesar.
They cried out, "Away with him, away with him, crucify him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar."
John 19:15

When Titus Titus Cesar entered the temple and set up the images or the roman empire and of Cesar the Jews and Roman worshiped him.

6. What of the wars and rumours of wars during a time when there was no wars?

Yes it's called the Jewish wars check out Josephus.

7. What about the native americans and those living on North Sentinal Island?
Not sure what ur asking here?

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The last question I asked is because the sentinal island is untouched by the world thus have not received the gospel.. so they all go to hell right? Never witnessing the return, are you Calvinist too?

 

[New Age Outlaw]

So what happened to Jesus physical body if he only ascended as spirit into heaven?

I don't know what happened to his body when he ascended. Acts says that a cloud received him from there site but paul is clear that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

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[New Age Outlaw]

The last question I asked is because the sentinal island is untouched by the world thus have not received the gospel.. so they all go to hell right? Never witnessing the return, are you Calvinist too?

NO..... never been a calvinist lol. They just died like all that did not have faith. There is no hell. The word Hell comes from the Latin vocabulary of means Inferno. Do a original language study on hell. Hell was not in the original language it was: Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus.

If there is a hell why didn't paul ever preach on it in fact he said the wages of sin is death not hell.

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[Andrew]

NO..... never been a calvinist lol. They just died like all that did not have faith. There is no hell. The word Hell comes from the Latin vocabulary of means Inferno. Do a original language study on hell. Hell was not in the original language it was: Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus.

If there is a hell why didn't paul ever preach on it in fact he said the wages of sin is death not hell.

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His flesh was not corrupt though, nor Spirit, that's the key point of His resurrection and the resurrection of all believers!
How can a preterist excuse this most important detail with "well, we don't know what happened to his flesh"??
His body was not found in the empty tomb, he was physically resurrected and this was witnessed!
About Hell, yes it's Jerome's loose translation of Hades/Sheol/Gahanna/Paradise/Abraham's Bosom etc... I agree 100%
But that was also the Old Testament covenant just as you advocate.. but Jesus, having being perfect in flesh and Spirit took captivity captive for all before and current who believe in Christ JESUS as their Messiah.

Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in Paradise that day, and for you to say that the Gospel was spread throughout the world by 70AD is not possible! Unless you are a hybrid preterist Mormon...
Calvinists don't even believe that the Gospel has reached every soul on this planet, they leave it to the Mercy seat of a Sovereign God.. Jesus came to earth in a physical form, died, resurrected in a supernatural physical form and then ascended BODILY into Heaven where He SITS on the right hand of God.
So you really assume that the physical body of Jesus vanished from all existence (neither buried, transformed or ascended) ??
What do you assume happens to a believer that dies? Be Honest