Were the prophecies mentioned in Revelation fulfilled in the 1rst Century?

[Lamb]

I don't know what happened to his body when he ascended. Acts says that a cloud received him from there site but paul is clear that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

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Paul is referring to the unrighteous...look at 1 Corinthians and you'll see the same wording but then it's explained with the context of the chapter.

 

[Andrew]

@New Age Outlaw
Paul also indicates that in denying the physical resurrection is yet to come you likewise deny the physical resurrection of Christ from the grave.. didn't a Jesuit spark the ideas adopted by preterist for their counter reformation?
Anyway, even the Pharisees believed in the resurrection, so I guess neither Jew or Christian even if that generation were aware that the Resurrection took place... Paul spoke much about it even until his death where he accepted 'his' time was coming soon and that he was waiting in love for the presence of the Lord upon his departure from this world.. a broken building means nothing, the Jews still hold to the original covenant and the early 1rst 2nd and third century "ante nicene" Church fathers condemned the gnostic heresy of a spiritual resurrection (not a physical one)..
The Son (Jesus) was and is unaware of His 2nd coming... Only the Father knows.. and for this it was very reasonable for Jesus to speak to that generation of what to expect, it doesn't make him a liar, the promise is for generations to come still, and a falling away first (which none of the apostles did). Why would Jesus say that they should expect a falling away in their life time, he says the opposite.. that the great apostasy will come first before the great and horrible day.. what did the early churches do in such a short time to turn away from Christ? In fact that listens to the warnings of the apostles and of John, well most did, structure and order in the churches are recorded to have been quite orderly soon after the warnings..
If Jesus was talking about the apostasy of the Jews he had already charged them, as well as the apostles for killing Christ.. "May his blood be upon us and our children"

He called them the generation of vipers.. So no he wasnt talking about the old covenant apostasy obviously

 

[New Age Outlaw]

Sry been busy and had to take a brake from all this stuff I can get a addicting.

Any who the physical body of christ if the apostles knew it was physical why did John say Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 1 John 3:2

Also no where in the old covenant speaks of a physical resurrection.

I understand that's hard to swallow it took me over a year of non stop studies to come to this conclusion.

We can disagree but to say its hersey is a little far.

Also I shared with u already passages in the bible were paul says the gospel went out to the world 26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Jesus didn't know the day or hour but knew it was that generation.


But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matthew 3:7

Wrath to come on them that generation the unbelieving generation.

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[New Age Outlaw]

Hopefully this will help u understand me view.

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[hobie]

This is new to me but according to preterist eschatology, the events (or at least the bulk of them) foreseen in John's visions were fulfilled by 70 AD with the destruction of the 2nd temple..
How is this even possible when the Gospel had not yet spread throughout the world?

@New Age Outlaw

Well lets take a look at the Preterist claims, since Futurism has basically nothing you can check as obviously its in the 'future'.

They say the prophecy was fulfilled by Nero, but they cant seem to agree among themselves. But lets take a look at this idea of "Nero as the Antichrist" Nero the Beast – The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

So lets look at this claim of those that believe that Paul’s prophecy concerning the man of sin applies to Nero. Here is the text.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-7 King James Version (KJV)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Nero died in A.D. 69. He didn’t even live long enough to accomplish what some say is the fulfillment of all the book of Revelation between A.D. 69-70. How can they suppose this fulfills the above prediction that he would be consumed with the spirit of God’s mouth, and destroyed by the brightness of His coming? Not only did he not sit in the temple of God, but he died before it was destroyed.

Now for those who believe the book of Revelation to be more of an historical account, than a prophecy. Lets look at the following:

Revelation 12:11-17 King James Version (KJV)
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Who are the above verses referring to, if everything in Revelation has already been fulfilled by A.D. 70? It certainly cannot be the Jews who perished by A.D. 70, for they overcame nothing by the blood of the Lamb, since they rejected the same. Who is the woman of the above scriptures, again it certainly cannot be the Jews who perished, for they most certainly did not have the testimony of Jesus, whom they rejected? Now it cannot be the Christian Church after A.D. 70 if everything was already fulfilled by A.D. 70.

Revelation 13:5-7 King James Version (KJV)
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Who are the saints of the above verses? If it cannot be the Jews that perished, and the Christians had fled the city, so it wasnt them. How was the latter part of the above prophecy fulfilled by A.D. 70, when to date no power on earth has effected all of humanity?

Revelation 13:11-15 King James Version (KJV)
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

How do you explain the two beasts of the above prophecy? If Rome under Nero was one, what is the other that comes afterwards? How do you explain the many details of the above that were not fulfilled by any power before A.D. 70?

Now if it was just days, the prophetic times of 1260 days, and forty two months could not have possibly been fulfilled between A.D. 68, and A.D. 70. However, if you use the day-year principle the Bible lays out for prophecy, then it all falls into place. Many are waking up and seeing how it fits one entity in history, the Roman Catholic Church... https://www.benabraham.com/html/1260-day_prophecy_and_the_papacy.html

 

[hobie]

Now lets look closer at the doctrines of the Futurist and Preterist interpretation. Here is from Wikipedia where I am a editor and it is straightforward:

'One of the most influential aspects of the early Protestant historicist paradigm was the assertion that scriptural identifiers of the Antichrist where matched only by the institution of the Papacy. Particular significance and concern were the Papal claims of authority over both the Church, through Apostolic succession, and the State, through the Divine right of Kings. When the Papacy aspires to exercise authority beyond its religious realm into civil affairs, on account of the Papal claim to be the Vicar of Christ, then the institution was fulfilling the more perilous biblical indicators of the Antichrist. Martin Luther wrote this view, which was not novel, into the Smalcald Articles of 1537. It was then widely popularized in the 16th century, via sermons, drama, books, and broadside publication. The alternate methods of prophetic interpretation, Futurism and Preterism were derived from Jesuit writings, whose counter reformation efforts were aimed at opposing this interpretation that the Antichrist was the Papacy or the power of the Roman Catholic Church

Protestant Reformers, including John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, John Thomas, John Knox, Roger Williams, Cotton Mather, Jonathan Edwards, and John Wesley, as well as most Protestants of the 16th–18th centuries, felt that the Early Church had been led into the Great Apostasy by the Papacy and identified the Pope with the Antichrist. The Centuriators of Magdeburg, a group of Lutheran scholars in Magdeburg headed by Matthias Flacius, wrote the 12-volume Magdeburg Centuries to discredit the Catholic Church and lead other Christians to recognize the Pope as the Antichrist. So, rather than expecting a single Antichrist to rule the earth during a future Tribulation period, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other Protestant Reformers saw the Antichrist as a present feature in the world of their time, fulfilled in the Papacy. '

Now in order to counter this view that the papacy was the Antichrist power it the church turned to the Jesuits who were summoned to counter the reformers' teachings, and here two Jesuit scholars stand out in particular. They are Ribera and Alcasar, and they developed the Futurist and Preterist systems of prophetic interpretation.

Spanish Jesuit Francisco Ribera published a commentary on the book of Revelation which proposed that the bulk of the prophecies would be fulfilled in a brief three-and-one-half-year period at the end of the Christian era. In that short space antichrist (a single individual, according to Ribera) would rebuild the Jerusalem Temple, deny Christ, abolish Christianity, be received by the Jews, pretend to be god, and conquer the world. Thus the Protestant contention that the apocalyptic symbols of antichrist denoted an apostate religious system was countered, and the focus of the prophecies was diverted from the present to the far distant future.

Spanish Jesuit, Luis de Alcazar also published a scholarly work on Revelation, to refute the Protestant Reformation on the Antichrist power. Alcazar's thesis, the opposite of Ribera's, was that all the prophecies of Revelation had been fulfilled in the past, that is, by the fifth and sixth centuries A.D., the early centuries of Christianity. He asserted that this prophetic book simply described a two-fold war by the church-its victory over the Jewish synagogue on the one hand (chaps. 1-11) and Roman paganism on the other (chaps. 12-19). Chapters 21, 22 Alcazar applied to the Roman Catholic Church as the New Jerusalem, glorious and triumphant. His writings were developed into a system of interpretation known as preterism.

Over time these specific systems of counter interpretations of the Antichrist spread and began to penetrate Protestant thought. Preterism was the first; it began to enter Protestantism in the late eighteenth century. Preterist interpretations of the prophecies have today become the standard view of liberal Protestantism.

The ideas of futurism, although refuted at first, eventually spread into Protestantism during the nineteenth century. Futurism, is currently followed in some form by most conservative Protestant bodies. Thus both spectrum of the Protestant denominations has picked up this counter reformation view set about to change the views of the papacy as the Antichrist power that was from the Reformers.

The false doctrine as you can see, basically are to put aside the Reformers view of the Antichrist. Preterist interpretation puts all prophecy pertaining to the Antichrist into the past so it is long gone, and the Futurist interpretation puts them into the future so the papacy could claim it was not this power.

 

[hobie]

Here is good overview on it....
"There are... three major "prophetic schools" of interpretation... - Preterism, Historicism, and Futurism. Each of these schools view the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation differently...

One of the most well-respected Bible Commentators in the history of Christianity was England's well-beloved, E.B. Elliott. In 1862, the 5th edition of his classic four-volume Horae Apocalypticae - A Commentary on the Apocalypse, was published in London. The great Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon, in his Comments on the Commentaries, considered Elliott's work "the standard.".... Elliott clearly reveals the three major contending schools of prophetic interpretation.

"For, in conclusion, the readers of this Historic Sketch will see that there are but three grand Schemes of Apocalyptic Interpretation that can be considered as standing up face to face against each other...

The 1st is that of the Praeterists; respecting the subject of prophecy, except in its two or three last chapters [of Revelation], to the catastrophes of the Jewish nation and old Roman Empire ... which Scheme, originally propounded, as we saw, by the Jesuit Alcasar, and then adopted by Grotius ... by Professor Moses Stuart in the United States of America, and by disciples in the German School in England ...

"The 2nd is the Futurist Scheme; making the whole of the Apocalyptic Prophecy, (excepting perhaps the primary Vision and Letters to the Seven Churches,) to relate to things now future, viz. the things concerning Christ's second Advent: a Scheme first set forth, [as] we saw, by the Jesuit [Francisco] Ribera, at the end of the 16th century; and which in its main principle has been urged alike by Dr. S.R. Maitland, Mr. Burgh, the Oxford Tractator on Antichrist, and others, in our own times and era, not without considerable success ...

"The 3rd is what we may call emphatically the Protestant continuous Historic Scheme of Interpretation; that which regards the Apocalypse as a prefiguration in detail of the chief events affecting the Church and Christendom, whether secular or ecclesiastical, from St. John's time to the consummation: - a Scheme which, in regard of its particular application of the symbols of Babylon and the Beast to Papal Rome and Popedom, was early embraced, as we saw, by the Waldenses, Wickliffites, and Hussites; then adopted with fuller light by the chief [Protestant] reformers, German, Swiss, French and English, of the 16th century; and transmitted downwards uninterruptedly, even to the present time. "It is the last of which [the Protestant Historicist School] which I embrace for my own part with a full and ever strengthening conviction of its truth." Horae, Vol. 4, pps. 562, 563.

Thus Elliott identifies:
1) The Preterist School which sees most of the prophecies being fulfilled in the past in the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and the pagan Roman Empire;
2) The Futurist School which sees most of the prophecies in Revelation - from chapter 4 onward - as applying to events yet future;...
3) The Historicist School which sees the book of Revelation as largely predictive of actual events to occur throughout the history of Christianty from the time of John until the return of Jesus Christ.

The Historicist School contained the viewpoint of almost all Protestant Reformers from the Reformation into the 19th century. Elliot also shows clearly through historical research that both the Preterist and Futurist schools were definitely put forth by Jesuit scholars in their earnest attempts to divert the unanimous Protestant application of Daniel's "little horn" prophecy and Revelation's "beast" prediction to the rise and work of Papal Rome...."excerpts from End Time Delusions by Steve Wohlberg.
Preterism, Historicism, Futurism Explained | White Horse Media

 

[hobie]

Now this really breaks down the issues with "Futurism"...
"the following points will reveal the failure of Futurism:

1. It doesn’t make sense that God would pass over 2000 years of Christian history in His prophecies, especially since the foundation prophecy of Daniel 2 reveals a straightforward historical succession from the days of Babylon all the way down to the end of time.[su_spacer]
2. A little historical research will reveal that the majority of Christian commentators on the book of Revelation down throughout Christian history have definitely seen the Church as being on earth from Revelation 4-20.
3. Revelation 4:1 does not describe the Rapture of the Church. It simply portrays John alone being taken up to heaven in a vision. Calling this “the Rapture” is really stretching it! John did not actually go to heaven in 4:1. His toes were still on Patmos.
4. Although the word “Church” is not used in Revelation 4-21, there are many prophecies and statements that clearly reveal that the Church is in fact on earth during those times.
5. The White Horse of the First Seal (Revelation 6:2): Although there are differences in the application of this symbol, a very large number have taken the same view as Pareus in his commentary (published in 1615). Elliott says, “In the four first seals he [Pareus] makes the horse the Church, Christ being its rider: – first white, with reference to its primitive purity; chiefly for the first 200 or 300 years: next red, with reference to its persecutions and blood-shedding of martyrs by the Pagan emperors …” (Horae, Vol. 4, p. 474).
6. The Fifth Trumpet (Revelation 9:4) does not hurt those who have “the seal of God on their foreheads.” This has often been applied to historical Christians in God’s Church.
7. The Time of the Sounding of the Seventh Angel (Revelation 10:7): During this time, “the mystery of God [will] be finished.” This “mystery of God” involves the preaching of Jesus Christ by His Church (Eph. 3:9, 10; Col. 4:3) and the fullness of Christ in the hearts of His people (Col. 1:26,27).
8. The Pure Woman (Revelation 12:1, 6, 13, 17): Paul describes Christ’s Church as a “chaste virgin” (2 Cor. 11:2) and as a “her” (Eph. 5:25). So does John in Revelation 19 which refers to Christ’s “saints” as “His wife” (19:7, 8).
9. The Faithful and Persecuted Saints against the Beast (Revelation 13, 14): The Beast makes “war with the saints” (13:7). “Here is the patience and faith of the saints” (13:10). “Here is the patience of the saints: Here are they who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (14:12). Who are these “saints”? Paul speaks of “all the churches of the saints” (1 Cor. 14:33). Thus wherever the saints are, there is Christ’s Church.
10. The Three Angel Messengers (Revelation 14:6-12, 14): Three final messages are represented as being given by angels right before the second coming of Jesus Christ. The first angel has the “everlasting gospel” to “preach” to all the world (14:6, KJV). This doesn’t mean that literal angels will shout from the skies. Not at all. Rather, these angels represent messages being given by Christ’s Church. It is the Church that is to “preach” the gospel to all the world before the end comes. Mat. 24:14.
11. The Faithful Garment-Keepers before Armageddon (Revelation 16:15, 16): Right before Armageddon, Jesus says, “Behold, I come as a thief, blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame … Armageddon.” It is faithful Christians in Christ’s Church who hold onto the garments of His righteousness before the end.
12. The Martyrs (Revelation 6:9; 12:11; 17:6): Mystery Babylon is drunk with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus Christ. These martyrs are faithful Christians in God’s Church throughout history who have died for the truth of Christ.
13. The Called-Out ones (Revelation 18:4): Before the final plagues fall (vs. 8), Jesus says, “Come out of her, my people …” His people are His saints in His Church who have become trapped inside of spiritual Babylon.
14. The Voice of the Bride (Revelation 18:23): Jesus pleads through His bride (His Church) to His “other sheep” (John 10:16) who are yet trapped inside the deceptions of Mystery Babylon – before it’s too late.
15. His Bride (Revelation 19:7, 8): Before Jesus returns, His wife makes “herself ready.” This refers to Christ’s Church.
16. Martyrs who resist the Beast (Revelation 20:4): Many are killed for “their witness to Jesus and for the word of God.” During Earth’s final crisis, true Christians in Christ’s Church refuse to bow to the Beast, the Image, and the Mark – even until death.

Futurism views all of the above passages as applying only to the “tribulation saints” who are forced to face a future one-man Antichrist after the Rapture. Yet this view ignores over a thousand years of Christian history and bloodshed during which faithful martyrs in the Church of Jesus Christ stood up against the real Beast and Harlot of Babylon."...The Failure of Futurism | White Horse Media

 

[hobie]

Here is even more I came across...

"Jesuits Introduce Futurist Counterinterpretation
For some time following the launching of the Reformation, Roman Catholic leadership carefully avoided exposition of the prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse. They seemed unable to parry the force of the incriminating Protestant applications of the prophecies concerning Antichrist, which were undermining the very foundations of the Catholic position. Upon the first outbreak of Luther's antipapal protest two Catholic doctors, Prierias and Eck, in the true spirit of the Fifth Lateran Council (1512-1517), had boldly reasserted the Lateran theory and declared the papal dominion to be Daniel's fifth monarchy, or reign of the saints, and identified the existing Roman church with the New Jerusalem.

But the reformers, with declarations by pen and voice, forcefully stated that the Papacy was the specified Antichrist of prophecy. The symbols of Daniel, Paul, and John were applied with tremendous effect. Hundreds of books and tracts impressed their contention upon the consciousness of Europe. Indeed it gained so great a hold upon the minds of men that Rome, in alarm, saw that she must successfully counteract this identification of Antichrist with the Papacy, or lose the battle. The Jesuits were summoned to aid in the extremity, and cleverly provided the very method needed both for defense and for attack.

From the ranks of the Jesuits two stalwarts arose, determined to lift the stigma from the Papacy by locating Antichrist at some point where he could not be applied to the Roman church. It was clearly a crisis of major proportions.

Two Conflicting Alternatives Brought Forth
Rome’s answer to the Protestant Reformation was twofold, though actually conflicting and contradictory. Through the Jesuits Ribera, of Salamanca, Spain, and Bellarmine, of Rome, the Papacy put forth her futurist interpretation. Almost simultaneously Alcazar, Spanish Jesuit of Seville, advanced the conflicting preterist interpretation. These were designed to meet and overwhelm the Historical interpretation of the Protestants. Though mutually exclusive, either Jesuit alternative suited the great objective equally well, as both thrust aside the application of the prophecies from the existing Church of Rome. The one (preterism) accomplished it by making prophecy stop altogether short of papal Rome's career. The other (futurism) achieved it by making it overleap the immense era of papal dominance, crowding Antichrist into a small fragment of time in the still distant future, just before the great consummation. It is consequently often called the gap theory.

According to the Protestants, the vision of Babylon and the supporting Beast is divinely interpreted in chapter 17 of the Apocalypse. It was on this that the Reformers commonly rested their case—the apostate woman, the Roman church; the city, seven-hilled Rome; the many waters, the many peoples; the Beast, the fourth, or Roman beast of Daniel; the sixth head, the Caesars; and the seventh, the popes.

Roman Catholics as well as Protestants agree as to the origin of these interpretations. The Roman Catholic writer G.S. Hitchcock says:

• “The Futurist School, founded by the Jesuit Ribera in 1591, looks for Antichrist, Babylon, and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, at the end of the Christian dispensation.
• “The Praeterist School, founded by the Jesuit Alcasar in 1614, explains the Revelation by the Fall of Jerusalem, or by the fall of Pagan Rome in 410 A.D.” (G.S. Hitchcock, The Beasts and the Little Horn, p. 7.)

Similarly, Dean Henry Alford (Protestant), in the "Prolegomena" to his Greek Testament, declares:

• “The founder of this system [Futurist] in modern times…appears to have been the Jesuit Ribera, about A.D. 1580." (Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 2, part 2, p. 351 [bottom numbering].)
• “The Praeterist view found no favour, and was hardly so much as thought of , in the times of primitive Christianity. … The View is said to have been first promulgated in anything like completeness by the Jesuit Alcasar … in 1614.” (Ibid, pp. 348, 349 [bottom numbering].)

Francisco Ribera (1537-1591)
About 1590 Ribera published a 500-page commentary on the Apocalypse, denying the Protestant application of Antichrist to the Church of Rome. Ribera’s death at fifty-four halted the preparation of further commentaries. Those that were printed passed through several revised editions—at Salamanca about 1590, Lyons and Antwerp in 1593, Douay in 1612, and Antwerp in 1603 and 1623.

Since its inception his basic thesis has been virtually unchanged. He assigned the first few chapters of the Apocalypse to ancient Rome, in John’s own time; the rest he restricted to a literal three and a half year’s reign of an infidel Antichrist, who would bitterly oppose and blaspheme the saints just before the second advent. He taught that antichrist would be a single individual, who would rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, abolish Christian religion, deny Christ, be received by the Jews, pretend to be God, and conquer the world—all in this brief space of three and one half years!

• Places Antichrist’s coming at the close of the seals
• Places trumpets under the seventh seal
• Death of the witness is literal time
• Antichrist's persecutions last three and one half years
• Judgements upon Rome for ultimate apostasy—in Revelation 17 Ribera admits the woman to be not only pagan Rome but also Rome Christian after a future falling away from the pope. (Francisco Ribera, Sacram Beati Ioannis … Apocalypsin Commentarij, chap. 14, pp. 282, 283).
• Repudiates Augustinian earthly millennium
• Antichrist’s reign counted by literal days
• Babylon is Rome past and future, not present

Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), focused his attack on the year-day principle.

• Capitalized on Luther’s hesitation over Apocalypse
• Main assault centered on year-day application
• Assigns symbols to past and future, thereby eliminating application to the long papal ascendancy of the Middle Ages.
• Exploits variations on time of the Antichrist

The heart of Bellarmine’s thesis was both clever and plausible, though deceptive. (1) Antichrist is an individual Jew, and not an apostate Christian system. (2) Therefore the length of his exploits must harmonize with the life period of one man—three and one half literal years, and not 1260 years.

Luis de Alcasar (1554-1613), Spanish Jesuit of Seville

• Made the seals the early expansion of apostolic Christianity
• God’s longsuffering, warnings, and punishments were allotted to the Jews
• The trumpets were judgments on fallen Judaism
• The two witnesses—the doctrine and holy lives of the Christians
• After the persecutions Christianity would arise with new glory and convert many Jews
• Revelation was the apostolic church, bringing forth the Roman church
• The first beast of Revelation 13 declared to be the persecuting arrogance of pagan Rome—the second beast, its carnal wisdom
• Revelation 17, the mystical meaning of idolatrous ancient Rome
• Revelation 18, its conversion to the Catholic faith

LeRoy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic faith of Our Fathers, The Historical Development of Prophetic Interpretation, Vol. 2, Review and Herald, Washington, D.C., 1948, excerpted, pp. 464-532.....http://gospel-herald.com/futurism_history.htm

 

[TopSilver]

The bible was meant to be taken literally. It's structure is founded on being literal. You can interpret certain aspects of it but that interpretation was never meant to go beyond what is literal.

There was a plague the bible says to the Pharohs a long time ago but that was not revelation unfolding in the past. Revelation states that the Devil and the False Prophet will be after the rapture. Simply put that's all you need to realize that revelation in somewhere in the future - when we don't know. The fact that the bible says they don't come to earth until everyone is taken to Heaven should be enough for everyone to know the truth about it.

 

[hobie]

The bible was meant to be taken literally. It's structure is founded on being literal. You can interpret certain aspects of it but that interpretation was never meant to go beyond what is literal.

There was a plague the bible says to the Pharohs a long time ago but that was not revelation unfolding in the past. Revelation states that the Devil and the False Prophet will be after the rapture. Simply put that's all you need to realize that revelation in somewhere in the future - when we don't know. The fact that the bible says they don't come to earth until everyone is taken to Heaven should be enough for everyone to know the truth about it.

I think everyone can see that prophecy was not meant to be literal, and you can see this at any Christian Bible study, here is just one good descriptions on Daniel I came across..
"DANIEL’S PROPHECY OF NEBUCHADNEZZAR: GOLD – THE FIRST EMPIRE
King Nebuchadnezzar, as told in Daniel 2, had a dream and none of his astrologers or wise men could interpret it. Without being told what the king had dreamed, Daniel already knew because God had shown him. Daniel told the King the meaning of a statue that the king had seen in the dream.

Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar the head of gold, represented the Babylonian Empire, and that the other components of the statue: Silver, bronze and iron, represented three empires that were to follow Babylon.

DANIEL & KING BELSHAZZAR: SILVER – THE SECOND EMPIRE
The Silver Empire represented the Medo-Persian Empire, which conquered Babylon in 539. This empire dominated the near and Middle East for approximately two centuries.

In Daniel 5, we are told about the feast of King Belshazzar dream, and a ghostly man’s hand that appeared and began writing on the wall. None of the King’s wise men, conjurers or diviners could interpret the inscription.

Daniel was brought in to declare its interpretation. Daniel told the King that he had exalted himself against the Lord of heaven, and because of this, God had numbered Belshazzar’s kingdom, which was going to be “divided and given over to the Medes and Persians.”

Scripture says: “That same night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was slain.”

BRONZE – THE THIRD EMPIRE
The bronze Empire represented the Greco-Macedonian Empire which had been established by Alexander The Great, and that Empire endured for roughly 260-300 years. Daniel predicted that this kingdom will rule over all the earth.

Daniel even predicted centuries before, quite specifically, how Alexander The Great’s relatives and progeny would not inherit his rule. This came to pass, as Alexander’s half-brother, legitimate son and illegitimate son were all three murdered, and Alexander’s four generals took over power – exactly as Daniel’s prophecy predicted.

IRON – THE FOURTH EMPIRE
The iron Empire represented the Roman Empire. Daniel also predicted that this kingdom would crush and break all the previous empires. The Roman Empire came into power in the first century BC, and after some 22 emperors and nearly 500 years, ended in September 476 A.D.

THE FIFTH EMPIRE: TO COME
The fifth Empire predicted by Daniel was described as having 10 toes, saying that the feet and toes were composed partly of iron and partly of clay. Unlike the previous empires, this description tells us that the final and fifth Empire will be made up of some kind of union of 10 countries or regions.

Future prophecies for our time to come
At the end of the book of Daniel, God instructed Daniel to “shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase” (Daniel 12:4)."...https://todaysdailyblessing.com/the-accuracy-of-bible-prophecies-the-prophet-daniel/

 

[TopSilver]

Yes @hobie I'm well aware of this scripture. But you have one thing mistaken. It's actually Gold, Iron, Nickel and Bronze. You left out the Nickel.

In my opinion Iron cannot be destroyed very easily. It's my personal belief this is the kingdom by which those who fight for Jesus and God but stand out in such a way that they are less orthodox and appear less traditional but are still born again Christians. I believe this is the second coming of christ kingdom.

I believe Gold is that of Jesus kingdom. The last Nickel and Bronze. In my opinion bronze are those are do not accept christ or believe in christ and may go against christ and nickel are the select individuals who do not give an answer, who are not saved but do not conform to neither God or the Devil but are undecided.

I've studied that for a while. In my opinion I think that's what it is. Do not forget that the second coming of Jesus had an Iron Sceptor. Iron is his kingdom. The reason being is because he held an Iron Sceptor. That's why I believe his is Iron. Jesus would be Gold probably from what I can understand that he would be neither nickel or bronze. The other 2, nickel and bronze. That leaves the undecided and the ones who are against God. I honestly think nickels the ones who are undecided as bronze is usually portrayed as being a statue. One of the 10 commandments are not to worship idols or statues. When I think of bronze I think of a statue.

 

[hobie]

Daniel 2:31-36 King James Version (KJV)
31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

 

[Andrew]

Perhaps I am Pan Agnostic when it comes to revelation. it's the Revelation of Jesus Christ through Johns visions he had in the Spirit. Repent for after death comes the judgment, what difference has it made or does it make for us to ponder on events whether in the past or future if it's appointed that all men die once?
Knowing Christ is knowing the Revelation of Christ, that he defeated death on the Cross and for those who believe that they may be saved