Were the prophecies mentioned in Revelation fulfilled in the 1rst Century?

[Andrew]

This is new to me but according to preterist eschatology, the events (or at least the bulk of them) foreseen in John's visions were fulfilled by 70 AD with the destruction of the 2nd temple..
How is this even possible when the Gospel had not yet spread throughout the world?

@New Age Outlaw

 

[Andrew]

Btw this is the preterist argument which for the most part (the portions of revelation it does cover) makes logical sense.. but i'd like to understand more about it and hear some peer feedback among our community

 

[New Age Outlaw]

So what was the world? Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth. Luke 2:1

The whole world census? Wow that's alot of ppl. Did Rome own the whole world? We know that there were ppl in china and north america at this time did they have to turn in a census? No. Rome only owned what was in the Roman Empire and Israel was in the Roman Empire.

The footnote in ur bible will say the Roman Empire for inhabited earth. Actually the NLT translation is right of all translations lol.


At that time the Roman emperor, Augustus, decreed that a census should be taken throughout the Roman Empire.
Luke 2:1

And actually Paul says the gospel was preach to all the nations and the whole world.

but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
Romans 16:26‭-‬27

the gospel, which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and increasing Col. 1:5-6

not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven Col. 1:23

Paul speaks here of the prophecy was fulfilled

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “Their voice has gone out into all the earth , And their words to the ends of the world .”
Romans 10:17‭-‬18

John Wycliffe a roman catholic in the 14th century was the man that came up with the whole world had to be preached too b4 christ comes again.

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[New Age Outlaw]

YES BRUCE GORE IS THE BOMB!!!!

LOVE his teaching and he is a partial preterist not a full preterist.

He used to teach biblical history at moody bible institute but in the early 90s he started studying revelation seriously with history and what he discovered was it happened. So he could not sigh the statement of faith and truth teach at moody institute so he quit.

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[Andrew]

So what was the world? Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth. Luke 2:1

The whole world census? Wow that's alot of ppl. Did Rome own the whole world? We know that there were ppl in china and north america at this time did they have to turn in a census? No. Rome only owned what was in the Roman Empire and Israel was in the Roman Empire.

The footnote in ur bible will say the Roman Empire for inhabited earth. Actually the NLT translation is right of all translations lol.


At that time the Roman emperor, Augustus, decreed that a census should be taken throughout the Roman Empire.
Luke 2:1

And actually Paul says the gospel was preach to all the nations and the whole world.

but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
Romans 16:26‭-‬27

the gospel, which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and increasing Col. 1:5-6

not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven Col. 1:23

Paul speaks here of the prophecy was fulfilled

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “Their voice has gone out into all the earth , And their words to the ends of the world .”
Romans 10:17‭-‬18

John Wycliffe a roman catholic in the 14th century was the man that came up with the whole world had to be preached too b4 christ comes again.

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So the biblical "world" was the roman-greco inhabitants but what does this say about those in China and the Americas etc?

Are you partial are total?

 

[New Age Outlaw]

I'm a full preterist all has been fulfilled.

Ok let's answer it this way. who did Jesus originally come for?

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[Andrew]

I'm a full preterist all has been fulfilled.

Ok let's answer it this way. who did Jesus originally come for?

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The ones God has sent him for, His sheep from all nations, tribes and tongues, the sick and poor in spirit, the sinner etc..

 

[atpollard]

So the biblical "world" was the roman-greco inhabitants but what does this say about those in China and the Americas etc?

The Gospel made it to India with absolute certainty, since we have ancient manuscripts of the Gospels translated into languages other than Greek. It is a matter of debate, but there is some evidence that the Gospel may have reached China in the First Century as well. In any event, we have proof of the gospel in Asia, Europe and Africa during the lifetime of the Apostles.

That just leaves Australia and the Americas as unreached in a preterist model.

[I have issues with all of the views, but I give credit where credit is due and admit that I don’t understand the parts that do not seem to fit together in each view of scripture.]

 

[Andrew]

The Gospel made it to India with absolute certainty, since we have ancient manuscripts of the Gospels translated into languages other than Greek. It is a matter of debate, but there is some evidence that the Gospel may have reached China in the First Century as well. In any event, we have proof of the gospel in Asia, Europe and Africa during the lifetime of the Apostles.

That just leaves Australia and the Americas as unreached in a preterist model.

[I have issues with all of the views, but I give credit where credit is due and admit that I don’t understand the parts that do not seem to fit together in each view of scripture.]

I thought Asia was considered Turkey in Apostle Pauls time
Edit: ok I get what you meant, New Age Outlaw I believe was going by the ancient census

 

[New Age Outlaw]

Nope Jesus says he came only fo the last sheep of Israel

Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.
Matthew 15:21‭-‬28

Canaanites were gentiles the jews often called gentiles Dogs because the were not the chosen elect people Israel.

Even though Jesus came only for Israel at this moment he shows us a picture of what will happen in the future.

After the rejection of king Jesus

So they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him!” Pilate *said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.”
John 19:15

And the covenant was broken when Jesus was sold for thirty peices of silver.

I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the Lord . I said to them, “If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!” So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. Then the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the Lord . Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Zechariah 11:10‭-‬14

After Israel denied there king then he started grafting in the gentiles.

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Matthew 28:18‭-‬20

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[New Age Outlaw]

The Gospel made it to India with absolute certainty, since we have ancient manuscripts of the Gospels translated into languages other than Greek. It is a matter of debate, but there is some evidence that the Gospel may have reached China in the First Century as well. In any event, we have proof of the gospel in Asia, Europe and Africa during the lifetime of the Apostles.

That just leaves Australia and the Americas as unreached in a preterist model.

[I have issues with all of the views, but I give credit where credit is due and admit that I don’t understand the parts that do not seem to fit together in each view of scripture.]

@atpollard

Yes its difficult to see the views at first.
2 years ago I was dispensationalist even tho I didn't know what the word ment.

A very good friend of my the I often discussed the bible with said he believed preterist view was true and I was shocked when I found out what it was.

I started studying the preterist view to understand so I could destroy it and get my friend back. Yet the more I stuff to more my beliefs didnt fit sqripture and the history and beliefs of the times.

I have prayed cried lost my right to preach and damaged family relationships over this view but I stand on sqripture and if that's the cost of truth in christ then that's what I will live with.

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[Andrew]

@atpollard

Yes its difficult to see the views at first.
2 years ago I was dispensationalist even tho I didn't know what the word ment.

A very good friend of my the I often discussed the bible with said he believed preterist view was true and I was shocked when I found out what it was.

I started studying the preterist view to understand so I could destroy it and get my friend back. Yet the more I stuff to more my beliefs didnt fit sqripture and the history and beliefs of the times.

I have prayed cried lost my right to preach and damaged family relationships over this view but I stand on sqripture and if that's the cost of truth in christ then that's what I will live with.

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So in short you believe that Jesus and John was speaking solely to that generation and not to us in the 21rst century correct?
John draws similar inspiration to Daniel regarding prophecy yet it took centuries before most of his (Daniels) prophecies to be unveiled, roughly during the the reign of Alexandria and his four kingdoms recorded in 1rst Maccabees, so why is John's vision so abrupt while also containing some of daniels prophecy?
Still so many questions so let's take it one at a time

 

[New Age Outlaw]

Well let's look at scripture what does he tell Daniel about his book?

But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”
Daniel 12:4 NASB

seal up the book until the end of time.

If the book was reopened in revelation then it was opened in the end time.

In revelation it says:
And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.Revelation 22:10 NASB

What time is near the end time. He tells John to keep it open not close it.

We also have to look at time statements and who the book was written to.

Time statements: dispensationalism say that we should take the bible literal yet when it comes to time statements that it doesn't mean soon or near or quickly or that generation. Thay calm Gods time is not ours. So God can't tell time on earth?
If he can't how do we know this is true:
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
Galatians 4:4

If this time statement is true why not the rest. In the Greek there is no other meaning for soon, quickly, or near.

So the book of revelation was written to seven churches. They where actual churches in the first century some of the paul help start.

So say u lived in the first century and you where in one of these churches and heard this: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Revelation 1:1

If u lived in the first century you would take this as soon in there time not 2000 years from then.

(Side note the orthodox Jewish bible says that the saying "which must son take place" is linked to However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days. This was your dream and the visions in your mind while on your bed.
Daniel 2:28)

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[Andrew]

Well let's look at scripture what does he tell Daniel about his book?

But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”
Daniel 12:4 NASB

seal up the book until the end of time.

If the book was reopened in revelation then it was opened in the end time.

In revelation it says:
And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.Revelation 22:10 NASB

What time is near the end time. He tells John to keep it open not close it.

We also have to look at time statements and who the book was written to.

Time statements: dispensationalism say that we should take the bible literal yet when it comes to time statements that it doesn't mean soon or near or quickly or that generation. Thay calm Gods time is not ours. So God can't tell time on earth?
If he can't how do we know this is true:
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
Galatians 4:4

If this time statement is true why not the rest. In the Greek there is no other meaning for soon, quickly, or near.

So the book of revelation was written to seven churches. They where actual churches in the first century some of the paul help start.

So say u lived in the first century and you where in one of these churches and heard this: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Revelation 1:1

If u lived in the first century you would take this as soon in there time not 2000 years from then.

(Side note the orthodox Jewish bible says that the saying "which must son take place" is linked to However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days. This was your dream and the visions in your mind while on your bed.
Daniel 2:28)

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So the new Heaven and new Earth was something that all of the seven churches would see? These were believers already, weren't they already transformed?
As for the star from heaven falling that made the waters bitter, the false prophet and the thousands of years of evil and thousand years reign.. All is poetic?
Why did the first second and third century church fathers preach on the prophecies?

If it's not the future then it's the past, what do you call a perpetual vantage point?

For instance I found this video years back that pretty much sums up how I view Revelation...

Assuming you are right, is it still as effective today as it was then? If it is, then it's not "really" over.. Right now we are on the verge of some political and economical tribulation perhaps demise and even collapse, I could sense this as the heavens turning against us etc.. I can't remember what scripture but in one of the OT books we are told that even the stars have lost their glow (as in sin), this lead to at least one ante nicene father suggesting that the stars must have a soul of some sorts (tjey praise God, they fall)

So perpetual?

One more thing.. If it was a world order that you get a chip in your hand (and if you dont have a hand then your forehead) in order to buy or sell.. Would you be so convinced of your views that you take the chip without a grain of salt?

 

[NewCreation435]

While I think it is possible that some of the prophecies spoken of by Jesus were fulfilled in the 1st century, the kind of tribulations mentioned in Reveleations is not something we have faced in modern times

 

[Andrew]

While I think it is possible that some of the prophecies spoken of by Jesus were fulfilled in the 1st century, the kind of tribulations mentioned in Reveleations is not something we have faced in modern times

The preterist believe that all believers are reigning with Christ on earth right now, it's why Jesus says "the kingdom is at hand", but I have yet to hear a verse by verse commentary of Revelation under this view since they use a historical approach.

 

[New Age Outlaw]

So the new Heaven and new Earth was something that all of the seven churches would see? Yes and we are in that now. I know it sounds weird coming from a dispensationalism view point but what did jews understand? Jews understood heaven and earth as the temple. The templ is were God came down to earth to meet with man the most holy of holy.

Jews did not always mean “the physical universe” when they spoke of heaven and earth together. In Jewish literature, the Temple was a portal connecting heaven and earth. They called it the “navel of the earth” and the “gateway to heaven” (Jub 8:19; 1 Enoch 26:1). Just like the Mesopotamian Tower in Genesis 11, the Temple connected God’s realm to where humans lived.

To reflect this belief, the Jerusalem Temple had been built to look like a microcosm of the universe. We typically overlook how literally true the Temple hymn preserved in Psalm 78:69 is: "He built his sanctuary like the high heavens, like the earth, which he has founded for ever." The actual holy place and most holy place inside the Temple building were constructed like earth and heaven. The courts outside represented the sea. I am not making this stuff up.

According to Josephus, two parts of the tabernacle were "approachable and open to all“ but one was not. He explains that in so doing Moses "signifies the earth and the sea, since these two are accessible to all; but the third portion he reserved for God alone because heaven is inaccessible to men" (Ant. 3:181, cf. 3:123). The veil between’ the accessible and inaccessible parts of the Temple was designed to represent the entire material world during Jesus’ day. Josephus and Philo agree that the veil was composed of four materials representing the four elements—earth, water, air, and fire (War 5:212-213; Ant. 3:138-144; Quaestiones in Exodum 2:85, cf. Mos 2:88). Heaven was beyond this material world. It was behind the curtain.

Outside the Temple’s microcosm of “heaven and earth,” the courts looked like the sea. Numbers Rabbah 13:19 records, "The court surrounds the temple just as the sea surrounds the world." In Talmudic tradition, Rabbis described how the inner walls of the Temple looked like waves of the sea (b. Sukk. 51b, b.B.Bat. 4a). From heaven and earth inside the temple, you looked out at the sea surrounding the world. Why? Ancients believed the earth had one giant land mass surrounded by sea. The temple reflected that cosmology. The accessible section of the Temple and the surrounding courts embodied both the land mass and sea believed to comprise the earth. The Most Holy Place was heaven where God's presence resided.

So the New Jerusalem not a physical place? No. Look back thru the sqripture anytime God said Israel or Egypt etc....
He was talking about a pepole not a place and check out Jesus's words it throws out the idea of a physical New Jerusalem.

Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4:21‭-‬24

So who are the "true worshippers" or the "New Jerusalem" remember a pepole not a place.

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.Romans 2:28‭-29

For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
Galatians 3:27‭-‬29

The true Jew or people of the New Jerusalem are believers.

These were believers already, weren't they already transformed? No they were not trans formed yet not till the old covenant passed away could a new covenant take place.

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13‭-‬18

This is not a rapture verses. The Thessalonians ask paul what about the dead will they be raised? Of course and he said we have hope in this so it had not yet happened. Notice he says we who are alive and remain. 1.Talking to the Thesalonians 2. How can you be alive and remain on earth?
Those that remain on earth after the destruction of the old covenant will be changed how? They receive there everlasting life. Then when they die they go to meet them in the air the spirit realm.

Notice what paul says in Romans:
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. Romans 8:23‭-‬25

Why were they hoping for redemption if they had it all ready.


As for the star from heaven falling that made the waters bitter?

The stars falling from heaven is poetic language about the old covenant Israel they were fallen. Check this out:
He said to them, “Please listen to this dream which I have had; for behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf rose up and also stood erect; and behold, your sheaves gathered around and bowed down to my sheaf.” Then his brothers said to him, “Are you actually going to reign over us? Or are you really going to rule over us?” So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words. Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, “Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?” His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the saying in mind.
Genesis 37:6‭-‬11 why didn't Joseph's father say the universe is bowing down to you what does that mean. No he tool it was them personally.

the false prophet? It was Vespasian.

After Nero’s death, Vespasian postponed his assault on Israel and contemplated the risk inherent in ascending to the throne. During this time of uncertainty, Rome was torn by civil war resulting in the deaths of three Caesars. During this tumultuous year described by John in Revelation 16:10, many people prophesied that Vespasian would become emperor.24 In addition, an ancient Jewish prophecy also bolstered his hope: Out of Judea would come the future king of the world. Stationed in Israel at the time, Vespasian believed himself to be the fulfillment of this age-old prophecy. This and many other signs not mentioned here gave Vespasian the resolution he needed.25 With his mind made up, the future emperor patiently awaited his opportunity. Then when the moment was right, he proved the predictions true and seized the crown. Immediately after Vespasian’s rise to power, the war in Israel which paused sometime after Nero’s death immediately resumed by Vespasian’s command. Thus these signs and miracles performed by the spirits of demons in vs. 13 and 14 pointing to Vespasian’s future rule indirectly guaranteed that the war in v. 14 would resume.


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[New Age Outlaw]

the thousands of years of evil and thousand years reign? There are many different views on this in preterism as with dispensationalism. I hold to this view of the 1000 years. It is poetic not lateral. It just means along time or many.

For instance: For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills.
Psalms 50:10 so just 1000 there or more hills in the world than just a 1000. So its poetic just means many.

So when was the 1000 year reign of christ in the first century. From the time he started his ministry" behold the kingdom of God is at hand" until ad 70 when everything was fullfilled. Say that's not a long time. Yet it was along time to them listen to what Peter says to the first century believers.

this first knowing, that there shall come in the latter end of the days scoffers, according to their own desires going on, and saying, ‘Where is the promise of his presence? for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation;’ for this is unobserved by them willingly, that the heavens were of old, and the earth out of water and through water standing together by the word of God, through which the then world, by water having been deluged, was destroyed; and the present heavens and the earth, by the same word are treasured, for fire being kept to a day of judgment and destruction of the impious men. And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day; the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is longsuffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation, and it will come — the day of the Lord — as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.
2 Peter 3:3‭-‬10

Why did the first second and third century church fathers preach on the prophecies?
Because jews believed that he was to set up a physical kingdom not a spiritual kingdom. They were still looking for the physical. Sounds like a despensationalist view. They missed the point of worshiping in spirit and in truth.

If it's not the future then it's the past, what do you call a perpetual vantage point?

I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Revelation 21:22‭-‬27

We are kind of the earth reigning with christ to draw all nations to him. Those that are outside we must give the invitation to accept a relationship with christ.

If it was a world order that you get a chip in your hand (and if you dont have a hand then your forehead) in order to buy or sell.. Would you be so convinced of your views that you take the chip without a grain of salt? Lol personally no I dont want one I dont like anything inside my body that doesn't belong but do I believe this is the mark of the beast no I do not.

My thumbs hurt now I'm going to ice them

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[Andrew]

What about the second coming of Christ and the resurrection? Also spiritually symbolic??

 

[NewCreation435]

The preterist believe that all believers are reigning with Christ on earth right now, it's why Jesus says "the kingdom is at hand", but I have yet to hear a verse by verse commentary of Revelation under this view since they use a historical approach.

Well, if that's true they are doing a pretty poor job of ruling.