What is one theology you feel is counterproductive?

[George]

Pick one theology and say why.

 

[Josiah]

ANY that holds that Jesus isn't the Savior.

ANY where ultimately self is (although they MAY give Jesus a crumb of credit for something..... maybe being a HELPER or POSSIBILITY MAKER - DOOR OPENER or OFFERER..... something like "Jesus opened the door to heaven but you get yourself in by doing X" or "Jesus OFFERS you heaven but you you get saved because you did X")

If Jesus isn't the Savior, Christianity is wrong.



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[atpollard]

“Why were some books banned from the Bible?”

Lots of heat and smoke, but no real light.


Or for a more traditional definition of “theology” (the study of God) ... there are many ways to the same God.
WHY: The many paths to ‘heaven’ lead to very different “gods” (based on their character), so most MUST be false. It is like saying that an arithmetic problem has many different right answers and no wrong answer. As an Architect, the answer is WRONG if the building falls down because 3+2 does not equal 7 ... no matter what ANYONE thinks. If PHYSICS can search for the TRUE answer, then we should accept no less from the search for GOD.

 

[Andrew]

Great topic! I prefer simplicity and always have..
Is IS is? Infant Baptism vs believers, predestination vs non predestination, basically all theology as such is redundant, the early Christians read scripture without mindless spinning of wheels, what they read was taken literally and there was not all this bickering and meaningless debates, you read and accepted what you read as literal.. I admire that, I get more out of reading the ante nicene fathers for example than I do the top theologians today..

Many Lutherans would be surprised to learn that Clement spoke gracefully of Faith alone and not by works!
I like the simpleness of his examples, not sure why him and many others are so ignored today..



From chapter XXXII"We are justified not by our own works but by faith"

"....All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

 

[Lamb]

Great topic! I prefer simplicity and always have..
Is IS is? Infant Baptism vs believers, predestination vs non predestination, basically all theology as such is redundant,

Not according to scripture.

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Doctrine is teaching...and theology is the study of God so what the verse says is that the teachings about God (including baptism and predestination) is necessary. Not redundant.

 

[Andrew]

Not according to scripture.

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Doctrine is teaching...and theology is the study of God so what the verse says is that the teachings about God (including baptism and predestination) is necessary. Not redundant.

What about the part about debating in the churches? There are too many divisions/denominations of the church due to arguing over theology. I understand it originated with very bad church dogmas that crept into the church, but I find a lot of theology now as forcing God into a box.
All I'm suggesting is that we could still learn from our early teachers, they go over all of these topics with simplicity very easily with no strife whatsoever from what I've read.. I used Lutheran theology as an example because the early teachers taught the same thing so it's nothing new.. but there are certain denominations that I believe want to distinguish themselves to the point that it's counter productive.

Theology is great, but when I see "counter productive" I think "argument", that's why put the "vs" in there, I apologise if I wasn't clear on that but that's how I understood the topic

 

[Particular]

Not according to scripture.

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Doctrine is teaching...and theology is the study of God so what the verse says is that the teachings about God (including baptism and predestination) is necessary. Not redundant.

Doctrine is derived from God's word, not from church tradition.

 

[George]

Doctrine is derived from God's word, not from church tradition.

Which has been interpreted in so many ways by so many people.

 

[Particular]

Which has been interpreted in so many ways by so many people.

True, but many interpretations do not make God all those interpretations.

 

[George]

True, but many interpretations do not make God all those interpretations.

Sure, but it also doesn’t help that we have thousands of Bible versions. And what criteria do you have to say that God is in one interpretation versus the other?

 

[Particular]

Sure, but it also doesn’t help that we have thousands of Bible versions. And what criteria do you have to say that God is in one interpretation versus the other?

Bible translations that are vetted through committee and reviewed by multiple sources is a good thing.

 

[George]

Bible translations that are vetted through committee and reviewed by multiple sources is a good thing.

Well the Bible was originally put together by the Ecumenical Councils. But the amount of verbiage changes and/or verses omitted in various versions are their interpretation.

 

[Andrew]

Atpollard why do you call our early Church fathers teachings a "theology"?

They had nothing but the Septuagint which included so called "additions" to books and a few others plus the "norm of norms"

I wouldn't call that a "theology" but recorded history of what our first Christians believed.

 

[Lamb]

Doctrine is derived from God's word, not from church tradition.

Yes. So?

 

[Lamb]

What about the part about debating in the churches? There are too many divisions/denominations of the church due to arguing over theology. I understand it originated with very bad church dogmas that crept into the church, but I find a lot of theology now as forcing God into a box.
All I'm suggesting is that we could still learn from our early teachers, they go over all of these topics with simplicity very easily with no strife whatsoever from what I've read.. I used Lutheran theology as an example because the early teachers taught the same thing so it's nothing new.. but there are certain denominations that I believe want to distinguish themselves to the point that it's counter productive.

Theology is great, but when I see "counter productive" I think "argument", that's why put the "vs" in there, I apologise if I wasn't clear on that but that's how I understood the topic

Debate isn't forbidden in the bible. Correcting those who have doctrine wrong is encouraged.

Acts 15:2
"So Paul and Barnabas engaged these men in sharp debate. The two of them were appointed, along with some other believers , to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question."

 

[Josiah]

Sure, but it also doesn’t help that we have thousands of Bible versions. And what criteria do you have to say that God is in one interpretation versus the other?

GEORGE -

Conservative, orthodox Protestants usually embrace Sola Scriptura, which ONLY means that the words we find in Scripture are the final norma normans for the evaluation of disputed events; Sola Scriptura (IMO, the practice is better known as The Rule of Scripture) embraces the words in Scripture as the rule, in much the same way as in civil law where the words of the law are the rule.

But Sola Scriptura is NOT interpretation (anymore than the Rule of Law is interpretation). Obviously, embracing the WORDS ON THE PAGE doesn't always totally resolve the dispute (witness those Protestants who hold that the meaning of "is" is "isn't" or "Baptism now saves you" means "Baptism saves no one"). There CAN be legit dispute as to the correct MEANING/DEFINITION of a word we all see in Scripture. Here is where we find a major division in Protestantism. Lutherans and Anglicans (well, conservative, traditional ones) lean heavily on TRADITION which we define as the clear, historic, ecumenical consensus of God's people (especially if formally embraced say in an Ecumenical Council or Creed). Lutherans will defend that "is" means "is" in the Eucharistic texts because that's the universal, exclusive, bold (even entirely undisputed) view of Christianity for over 1500 years. But there are other approaches. Reformed/Calvinism tends to replace Tradition with each individual's sense/feeling of what is POSSIBLE and LOGICAL (at least to that individual on that day). And "Evangelical" Protestantism replaces Tradition with however each individual person happens to feel "lead" at that moment, "what this MEANS to ME is....." And while all the above may claim some kind of embrace of the Rule of Scripture, the "rub" is not that but hermaneutics (which Sola Scriptura does NOT address). "First Wave" Protestantism (Lutheran and Anglican) lean a lot on ecumenical, historic understanding.... "Second Wave" Protestantism (Calvinism) leans a lot on each persons sense of logic and what can and cannot be true.... "Third Wave" Protestantism ("Evangelicalism") is highly relativistic and holds that each person at each moment is "lead" perhaps to opposite views.



To the thread, I gave my reply in post # 2





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[Particular]

Two counter-productive theologies are:
1) that infant baptism saves.
2) that partaking in communion saves.

 

[FredVB]

Some debate of theology can easily be wasteful, of effort or time, or helpfulness. But there are surely serious issues for which right doctrine is important and should be discussed among those who disagree on it.

I can think some theologies that are held among certain others would be counterproductive. We might say disagreement with the trinity is a serious issue, I don't think there are Christians here disagreeing with it. But I don't think that any who do disagree must be lost, they are just mistaken, and it is serious enough to be discussed.

But if I think for a theology being discussed here in these forums being counterproductive I could think of what involves our salvation. If we are not saved by what things we do, but by Yahweh our God through Christ and what he has done, for us, we are counterproductive to that with saying we may do things to no longer be saved. It changes it when our witness to others has them believing that how we are saved is up to what things we do, such that they do not actually believe that it is from God through Christ and what he has done. And as it is with our faith, it is counterproductive to say to others that it was all up to God and did not involve any of our responsive faith.

Spiritual fruits we have come with our growth as real Christian believers and these would show, they give testimony, to our own selves and to others who see, that we are changed and really have that salvation, and the eternal life that we will always have, which is assured to us from apostolic teaching (the right doctrines... or theology). Those who went out from us were not ever really of us, if they had been of us they would have continued in the faith with us, but they are manifested to us that none of them were really of us.

 

[Lamb]

ANY that holds that Jesus isn't the Savior.

ANY where ultimately self is (although they MAY give Jesus a crumb of credit for something..... maybe being a HELPER or POSSIBILITY MAKER - DOOR OPENER or OFFERER..... something like "Jesus opened the door to heaven but you get yourself in by doing X" or "Jesus OFFERS you heaven but you you get saved because you did X")

If Jesus isn't the Savior, Christianity is wrong.

I haven't posted in this thread but this is exactly what I would say. Jesus is the Savior of the world and only He, not anyone else can be added to that or it's counterproductive.