Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

[Michael]

Eternal salvation is dependent upon Jesus and the forgiveness of sins that He atoned for at the cross. You sin. If you say you don't then you lie. The question is do you believe God forgives you so you can have eternal life?

Again, I have to choose to believe what the Scripture says. Can you?

"having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him" - Heb 5:9

I believe perhaps you are confusing "eternal Life" and "eternal salvation." onder:

 

[Lamb]

Again, I have to choose to believe what the Scripture says. Can you?

"having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him" - Heb 5:9

I believe perhaps you are confusing "eternal Life" and "eternal salvation." onder:

Once again, how are you doing trying to live that sinless life? You still sin. If you say you don't then Holy Scriptures say you're a liar. Since the Holy Scriptures are God's Word then it's the same as God calling you a liar if you say you have no sin. So now what do you do since you can't achieve what you have it set in your heart that you can? You look to the Christ who died for the forgiveness of your sins. That's how you get eternal life from God.

 

[Michael]

Once again, how are you doing trying to live that sinless life? You still sin. If you say you don't then Holy Scriptures say you're a liar. Since the Holy Scriptures are God's Word then it's the same as God calling you a liar if you say you have no sin. So now what do you do since you can't achieve what you have it set in your heart that you can? You look to the Christ who died for the forgiveness of your sins. That's how you get eternal life from God.

Hmmm... When did I say I don't sin?

Ma'am you have to let go.

The Word stands. It cannot be broken. Without True Repentance, Obedience and a Walk Worthy, we WILL NOT inherit the promises of God in Revelation 2 & 3. Period. This is not even debatable, as it is one of the main teachings of the Scripture.

Jesus said this. The Apostles taught it. Paul wrote extensively about it. I believe it. And I will continue to teach it as the Holy Spirit has directed. That settles it. reach: :bible:

Again, it's ok to learn something new.

Peace & Blessings, Wisdom and Understanding to you in this coming New Year. :ange06:

 

[Lamb]

Hmmm... When did I say I don't sin?

Ma'am you have to let go.

The Word stands. It cannot be broken. Without True Repentance, Obedience and a Walk Worthy, we WILL NOT inherit the promises of God in Revelation 2 & 3. Period. This is not even debatable, as it is one of the main teachings of the Scripture.

Jesus said this. The Apostles taught it. Paul wrote extensively about it. I believe it. And I will continue to teach it as the Holy Spirit has directed. That settles it. reach: :bible:

Again, it's ok to learn something new.

Peace & Blessings, Wisdom and Understanding to you in this coming New Year. :ange06:

You implied it when you wrote:

The Truth that we actually can stop sinning is wonderful news indeed!

You see, even you should know that you will not stop sinning which means you're never going to be fully obedient to what the Law demands of you to have eternal life.

Really, you don't need to make the snide remarks about learning something new. The Law is not new stuff.

I wish you would rely more on Jesus and less of yourself for eternal life because that's what the Gospel is about.

 

[Michael]

You implied it when you wrote:



You see, even you should know that you will not stop sinning which means you're never going to be fully obedient to what the Law demands of you to have eternal life.

Really, you don't need to make the snide remarks about learning something new. The Law is not new stuff.

I wish you would rely more on Jesus and less of yourself for eternal life because that's what the Gospel is about.

No snide remarks. Just sharing Truth, and offering counsel as I do in the churches in which I minister. It's part of my calling to which I strive to be faithful.

The "Gospel" as understood today is largely foreign to the Scripture, but that is another topic. I'm actually just beginning a teaching series on what the Gospel is.

Just to clarify, I've never taught or implied that we are to keep the Law of Moses. That covenant died when Christ died on the Cross. The "obedience" that Jesus, the Apostles and I & many others teach has nothing to do with the regulations and ordinances of the Law of Moses. Many in the Bible, including the Pharisee's DID keep the Law perfectly, but they remained individuals, which is why they fell short of the holiness and righteousness that God requires of us who have been called to "come after" Christ. Our "obedience" must be to the commands of God given through Christ: His Eternal Moral Law to which we will always be subject. Which in fact, to which Jesus will always be subject.

"When you obey My commandments, you remain in My love, just as I obey My Father’s commandments and remain in His love." - John 15:10 NLT

Let's take a look at what Jesus said to one whom He healed and set free -

"Jesus found the man in the temple and said to him, Behold, you are made whole. Sin no more, lest a worse thing happen to you." - John 5:14

Perhaps modern preaching would say, 'see you have been forgiven, now go your way and rest in the love of Christ who knows you can't stop sinning, but don't worry for nothing bad can happen to you and you will hear well done good and faithful servant in that Day because you have believed and didn't try to earn your salvation.'

Personally, I must choose to obey what Jesus actually did say, rather than the "smooth sayings" and "ear-tickling" messages of carnal men.

Can we receive the very Word of Christ? Do we really believe?

“Neither do I condemn you,” said Jesus. “Go, and from now on do not sin anymore.” - John 8:11

Paul understood and taught this, saying bluntly to those in the churches who refused to believe God had called them to stop sinning - "Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame." (1Cor 15:34)

And of course the Apostle John, who perhaps knew that Jesus' Word in John 3:16 would be misunderstood if taken apart from all else He taught, wrote the following to "believers" -

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." - 1John 3:4-8

We see friend, that there is more to the plan and purpose of God than the churches at large seem to understand these days. These passages simply cannot be dismissed. And nothing Paul wrote can supersede what Jesus said. The Word in unchanging. As I've been saying for years... if a single verse in the New Testament is suspect, then ALL is suspect and no verse can be trusted as absolute Truth.

Trust me, I am learning new things all the time, as God continues to unveil Eternal Truth and reveal what has been in the Scripture all along (I present nothing new). God is moving His Church past Pentecost. There are three more Feasts to be fulfilled. Will we walk that "narrow Way", or remain with the crowds that tread the "wide path"?

 

[Lamb]

No snide remarks. Just sharing Truth, and offering counsel as I do in the churches in which I minister. It's part of my calling to which I strive to be faithful.

The "Gospel" as understood today is largely foreign to the Scripture, but that is another topic. I'm actually just beginning a teaching series on what the Gospel is.

Just to clarify, I've never taught or implied that we are to keep the Law of Moses. That covenant died when Christ died on the Cross. The "obedience" that Jesus, the Apostles and I & many others teach has nothing to do with the regulations and ordinances of the Law of Moses. Many in the Bible, including the Pharisee's DID keep the Law perfectly, but they remained individuals, which is why they fell short of the holiness and righteousness that God requires of us who have been called to "come after" Christ. Our "obedience" must be to the commands of God given through Christ: His Eternal Moral Law to which we will always be subject. Which in fact, to which Jesus will always be subject.

"When you obey My commandments, you remain in My love, just as I obey My Father’s commandments and remain in His love." - John 15:10 NLT

Let's take a look at what Jesus said to one whom He healed and set free -

"Jesus found the man in the temple and said to him, Behold, you are made whole. Sin no more, lest a worse thing happen to you." - John 5:14

Perhaps modern preaching would say, 'see you have been forgiven, now go your way and rest in the love of Christ who knows you can't stop sinning, but don't worry for nothing bad can happen to you and you will hear well done good and faithful servant in that Day because you have believed and didn't try to earn your salvation.'

Personally, I must choose to obey what Jesus actually did say, rather than the "smooth sayings" and "ear-tickling" messages of carnal men.

Can we receive the very Word of Christ? Do we really believe?

“Neither do I condemn you,” said Jesus. “Go, and from now on do not sin anymore.” - John 8:11

Paul understood and taught this, saying bluntly to those in the churches who refused to believe God had called them to stop sinning - "Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame." (1Cor 15:34)

And of course the Apostle John, who perhaps knew that Jesus' Word in John 3:16 would be misunderstood if taken apart from all else He taught, wrote the following to "believers" -

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." - 1John 3:4-8

We see friend, that there is more to the plan and purpose of God than the churches at large seem to understand these days. These passages simply cannot be dismissed. And nothing Paul wrote can supersede what Jesus said. The Word in unchanging. As I've been saying for years... if a single verse in the New Testament is suspect, then ALL is suspect and no verse can be trusted as absolute Truth.

Trust me, I am learning new things all the time, as God continues to unveil Eternal Truth and reveal what has been in the Scripture all along (I present nothing new). God is moving His Church past Pentecost. There are three more Feasts to be fulfilled. Will we walk that "narrow Way", or remain with the crowds that tread the "wide path"?

You confuse Law and what it actually means and accomplishes. That is why you cease to glorify Jesus and instead push Him and His propitiation for your sins aside to attempt to glorify yourself before God. But you can't fool God.

 

[Lamb]

No snide remarks. Just sharing Truth, and offering counsel as I do in the churches in which I minister. It's part of my calling to which I strive to be faithful.

The "Gospel" as understood today is largely foreign to the Scripture, but that is another topic. I'm actually just beginning a teaching series on what the Gospel is.

Just to clarify, I've never taught or implied that we are to keep the Law of Moses. That covenant died when Christ died on the Cross. The "obedience" that Jesus, the Apostles and I & many others teach has nothing to do with the regulations and ordinances of the Law of Moses. Many in the Bible, including the Pharisee's DID keep the Law perfectly, but they remained individuals, which is why they fell short of the holiness and righteousness that God requires of us who have been called to "come after" Christ. Our "obedience" must be to the commands of God given through Christ: His Eternal Moral Law to which we will always be subject. Which in fact, to which Jesus will always be subject.

"When you obey My commandments, you remain in My love, just as I obey My Father’s commandments and remain in His love." - John 15:10 NLT

Let's take a look at what Jesus said to one whom He healed and set free -

"Jesus found the man in the temple and said to him, Behold, you are made whole. Sin no more, lest a worse thing happen to you." - John 5:14

Perhaps modern preaching would say, 'see you have been forgiven, now go your way and rest in the love of Christ who knows you can't stop sinning, but don't worry for nothing bad can happen to you and you will hear well done good and faithful servant in that Day because you have believed and didn't try to earn your salvation.'

Personally, I must choose to obey what Jesus actually did say, rather than the "smooth sayings" and "ear-tickling" messages of carnal men.

Can we receive the very Word of Christ? Do we really believe?

“Neither do I condemn you,” said Jesus. “Go, and from now on do not sin anymore.” - John 8:11

Paul understood and taught this, saying bluntly to those in the churches who refused to believe God had called them to stop sinning - "Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame." (1Cor 15:34)

And of course the Apostle John, who perhaps knew that Jesus' Word in John 3:16 would be misunderstood if taken apart from all else He taught, wrote the following to "believers" -

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." - 1John 3:4-8

We see friend, that there is more to the plan and purpose of God than the churches at large seem to understand these days. These passages simply cannot be dismissed. And nothing Paul wrote can supersede what Jesus said. The Word in unchanging. As I've been saying for years... if a single verse in the New Testament is suspect, then ALL is suspect and no verse can be trusted as absolute Truth.

Trust me, I am learning new things all the time, as God continues to unveil Eternal Truth and reveal what has been in the Scripture all along (I present nothing new). God is moving His Church past Pentecost. There are three more Feasts to be fulfilled. Will we walk that "narrow Way", or remain with the crowds that tread the "wide path"?

You confuse Law and what it actually means and accomplishes. That is why you cease to glorify Jesus and instead push Him and His propitiation for your sins aside to attempt to glorify yourself before God. But you can't fool God.

 

[Michael]

You confuse Law and what it actually means and accomplishes. That is why you cease to glorify Jesus and instead push Him and His propitiation for your sins aside to attempt to glorify yourself before God. But you can't fool God.

That made me smile this morning. Thanks!

Sister, if you've actually read anything I've ever posted you'd know that I have complete clarity on the Law of Moses and it's purpose as a "tutor" to bring us to Christ.

Many today seem to think that "obedience" means we must keep the Law of Moses. It does not.

Yet, as Jesus and the Apostles emphasized continually - without True Repentance (an actual turning away from sin) and Obedience (to the commands of God given through Christ) we will not inherit the promises of God in Revelation chapter 2 & 3, or receive that "Eternal salvation."

Again, to reiterate -

Just to clarify, I've never taught or implied that we are to keep the Law of Moses. That covenant died when Christ died on the Cross. The "obedience" that Jesus, the Apostles and I & many others teach has nothing to do with the regulations and ordinances of the Law of Moses. Many in the Bible, including the Pharisee's DID keep the Law perfectly, but they remained individuals, which is why they fell short of the holiness and righteousness that God requires of us who have been called to "come after" Christ. Our "obedience" must be to the commands of God given through Christ: His Eternal Moral Law to which we will always be subject. Which in fact, to which Jesus will always be subject.

"When you obey My commandments, you remain in My love, just as I obey My Father’s commandments and remain in His love." - John 15:10 NLT

Let's take a look at what Jesus said to one whom He healed and set free -

"Jesus found the man in the temple and said to him, Behold, you are made whole. Sin no more, lest a worse thing happen to you." - John 5:14

Perhaps modern preaching would say, 'see you have been forgiven, now go your way and rest in the love of Christ who knows you can't stop sinning, but don't worry for nothing bad can happen to you and you will hear well done good and faithful servant in that Day because you have believed and didn't try to earn your salvation.'

Personally, I must choose to obey what Jesus actually did say, rather than the "smooth sayings" and "ear-tickling" messages of carnal men.

Can we receive the very Word of Christ? Do we really believe?

“Neither do I condemn you,” said Jesus. “Go, and from now on do not sin anymore.” - John 8:11

Paul understood and taught this, saying bluntly to those in the churches who refused to believe God had called them to stop sinning - "Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame." (1Cor 15:34)

And of course the Apostle John, who perhaps knew that Jesus' Word in John 3:16 would be misunderstood if taken apart from all else He taught, wrote the following to "believers" -

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." - 1John 3:4-8

My question to you, friend, is... Can you receive the Word of Jesus and His Apostles here?

 

[Lamb]

That made me smile this morning. Thanks!

Sister, if you've actually read anything I've ever posted you'd know that I have complete clarity on the Law of Moses and it's purpose as a "tutor" to bring us to Christ.

Many today seem to think that "obedience" means we must keep the Law of Moses. It does not.

Yet, as Jesus and the Apostles emphasized continually - without True Repentance (an actual turning away from sin) and Obedience (to the commands of God given through Christ) we will not inherit the promises of God in Revelation chapter 2 & 3, or receive that "Eternal salvation."

Again, to reiterate -

Just to clarify, I've never taught or implied that we are to keep the Law of Moses. That covenant died when Christ died on the Cross. The "obedience" that Jesus, the Apostles and I & many others teach has nothing to do with the regulations and ordinances of the Law of Moses. Many in the Bible, including the Pharisee's DID keep the Law perfectly, but they remained individuals, which is why they fell short of the holiness and righteousness that God requires of us who have been called to "come after" Christ. Our "obedience" must be to the commands of God given through Christ: His Eternal Moral Law to which we will always be subject. Which in fact, to which Jesus will always be subject.

"When you obey My commandments, you remain in My love, just as I obey My Father’s commandments and remain in His love." - John 15:10 NLT

Let's take a look at what Jesus said to one whom He healed and set free -

"Jesus found the man in the temple and said to him, Behold, you are made whole. Sin no more, lest a worse thing happen to you." - John 5:14

Perhaps modern preaching would say, 'see you have been forgiven, now go your way and rest in the love of Christ who knows you can't stop sinning, but don't worry for nothing bad can happen to you and you will hear well done good and faithful servant in that Day because you have believed and didn't try to earn your salvation.'

Personally, I must choose to obey what Jesus actually did say, rather than the "smooth sayings" and "ear-tickling" messages of carnal men.

Can we receive the very Word of Christ? Do we really believe?

“Neither do I condemn you,” said Jesus. “Go, and from now on do not sin anymore.” - John 8:11

Paul understood and taught this, saying bluntly to those in the churches who refused to believe God had called them to stop sinning - "Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame." (1Cor 15:34)

And of course the Apostle John, who perhaps knew that Jesus' Word in John 3:16 would be misunderstood if taken apart from all else He taught, wrote the following to "believers" -

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." - 1John 3:4-8

My question to you, friend, is... Can you receive the Word of Jesus and His Apostles here?

You've proven with your entire post above that you cannot distinguish between Law and Gospel. Your "gospel" is pure law.

I'm a Christian by God's grace through faith. I will have eternal life because of Jesus' obedience and am clothed in Him at my baptism. You refuse to trust that Jesus can bring you eternal life and prove that over and over again in your posts when you keep pointing back to self. It's "me theology" you preach. You don't preach the Good News for eternal life.

When we stand before God on Judgment Day you will have your fingers pointing at you. I look to Jesus.

"Come, let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who before the joy set before Him, endured the cross, scorning its shame."

Thanks be to God that He came to earth, lived the perfectly obedient life you never can achieve and died on the cross for the forgiveness of your sins. Believe in that Gospel for the sake of your soul.

 

[Michael]

You've proven with your entire post above that you cannot distinguish between Law and Gospel. Your "gospel" is pure law.

I'm a Christian by God's grace through faith. I will have eternal life because of Jesus' obedience and am clothed in Him at my baptism. You refuse to trust that Jesus can bring you eternal life and prove that over and over again in your posts when you keep pointing back to self. It's "me theology" you preach. You don't preach the Good News for eternal life.

When we stand before God on Judgment Day you will have your fingers pointing at you. I look to Jesus.

"Come, let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who before the joy set before Him, endured the cross, scorning its shame."

Thanks be to God that He came to earth, lived the perfectly obedient life you never can achieve and died on the cross for the forgiveness of your sins. Believe in that Gospel for the sake of your soul.

Thing is... they're not my words, but GOD'S. It's His Gospel. Anything less is not the Full Gospel. It appears you have received something lesser than what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

And that's OK. You've begun in a good place. Now let us press on! The book of Hebrews is a great place to start.

Peace & Blessings to you on your journey.

 

[Lamb]

Thing is... they're not my words, but GOD'S. It's His Gospel. Anything less is not the Full Gospel. It appears you have received something lesser than what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

And that's OK. You've begun in a good place. Now let us press on! The book of Hebrews is a great place to start.

Peace & Blessings to you on your journey.

Not everything that came out of Jesus' mouth was Gospel. He spoke a lot of law which is what you cling to for your theology.

Satan is good at convincing men that they don't need Jesus. That they don't need His forgiveness. That they don't need His grace and mercy. That they can gain eternal life with their own efforts.

Jesus' entire life was to die for us so we can have eternal life by His death and resurrection. Cling to that. Cling to Jesus. You'll have eternal life by grace through faith and not by works. Only Jesus is The Way. Will you follow Him? Or will you cling to your own works and fail?

 

[Michael]

Not everything that came out of Jesus' mouth was Gospel. He spoke a lot of law which is what you cling to for your theology.

Satan is good at convincing men that they don't need Jesus. That they don't need His forgiveness. That they don't need His grace and mercy. That they can gain eternal life with their own efforts.

Jesus' entire life was to die for us so we can have eternal life by His death and resurrection. Cling to that. Cling to Jesus. You'll have eternal life by grace through faith and not by works. Only Jesus is The Way. Will you follow Him? Or will you cling to your own works and fail?

I beg pardon, but I never stated that we don't need Jesus. Of course we do! All is made possible only through Him!

And to offer correction, EVERYTHING Jesus Spoke is the Gospel. Some misunderstand that today, and teach that what Paul wrote supersedes what Jesus taught. That is absolutely wrong.

Jesus said clearly - “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." - Matt 28:18-20

I refuse to even listen to anyone who attempts to tell me that Jesus made a mistake here, and that some of the things He taught we can now disregard. The "obedience" Jesus taught is for us as well. Without it, we will not receive "eternal salvation." Without being found "worthy of Him" as He said, not I, we will not "inherit the Kingdom."


Surely, I have enjoyed our conversation here. I've actually gained some material for a Novel I am currently writing, founded on the Eternal Truth of 2Chron 7:14.

Perhaps we can pick this up at a later date, hopefully a little more civilly. I'm about to start my series on the Gospel.

Please understand, friend, we're all on this Journey together. We have different callings for sure, and none of us are there yet. Let us "exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of us be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." (Heb 3:13-14) Amen.

As our Lord declared "He who endures til the end shall be saved."

May we be found among those who are enduring. "For now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed." (Rom 13:11)

 

[Josiah]

I beg pardon, but I never stated that we don't need Jesus. Of course we do! All is made possible only through Him!

And to offer correction, EVERYTHING Jesus Spoke is the Gospel. Some misunderstand that today, and teach that what Paul wrote supersedes what Jesus taught. That is absolutely wrong.

Jesus said clearly - “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." - Matt 28:18-20

I refuse to even listen to anyone who attempts to tell me that Jesus made a mistake here, and that some of the things He taught we can now disregard. The "obedience" Jesus taught is for us as well. Without it, we will not receive "eternal salvation." Without being found "worthy of Him" as He said, not I, we will not "inherit the Kingdom."

You continue to GROSSLY confuse Law and Gospel, Sanctification with Justification. The result is a repudiation of Jesus as the Savior since in your teaching, self ultimately is the reason self is saved - self saves self by his own obedience; Jesus no longer Savior but just "Starter" or "Possibility Maker".

It's not that what you say is always WRONG just misapplied, confused, misused.... YES, CHRISTIANS are to be as holy as God is, as perfect as God is, as loving as Jesus is, as obedient as Jesus.... no one denies that, that's what the Law says. But that's not how anyone becomes a Christian, how anyone is justified.

 

[Michael]

You continue to GROSSLY confuse Law and Gospel, Sanctification with Justification. The result is a repudiation of Jesus as the Savior since in your teaching, self ultimately is the reason self is saved - self saves self by his own obedience; Jesus no longer Savior but just "Starter" or "Possibility Maker".

It's not that what you say is always WRONG just misapplied, confused, misused.... YES, CHRISTIANS are to be as holy as God is, as perfect as God is, as loving as Jesus is, as obedient as Jesus.... no one denies that, that's what the Law says. But that's not how anyone becomes a Christian, how anyone is justified.

au con·traire my friend, I understand the relationship between Law and Gospel very well. Better than most I see, from some of the responses I've received.

To which Law are you referring? The Law of Moses doesn't command us, as you stated, 'to be as holy as God is, as perfect as God is, as loving as Jesus is, as obedient as Jesus.'

And if you say the "Law of the Spirit of Life", then are you suggesting that we are not subject to that Law? Which of course we are.

Again, you seem to be confusing the Law of Moses with the Law of the Spirit of Life and the Eternal Moral Law of God.
This should be something we can discuss as maturing disciples of Jesus, who are striving to walk worthy of our calling.
Sadly, some of the attitudes toward me are evidence of another spirit.

 

[Lamb]

au con·traire my friend, I understand the relationship between Law and Gospel very well. Better than most I see, from some of the responses I've received.

To which Law are you referring? The Law of Moses doesn't command us, as you stated, 'to be as holy as God is, as perfect as God is, as loving as Jesus is, as obedient as Jesus.'

And if you say the "Law of the Spirit of Life", then are you suggesting that we are not subject to that Law? Which of course we are.

Again, you seem to be confusing the Law of Moses with the Law of the Spirit of Life and the Eternal Moral Law of God.
This should be something we can discuss as maturing disciples of Jesus, who are striving to walk worthy of our calling.
Sadly, some of the attitudes toward me are evidence of another spirit.

It is you who confuses Law and Gospel. God's Holy Law is what we refer to when we say Law, obviously. You preach Law without Gospel. Oh, sure you say you preach it but you don't. You push Jesus and His propitiation out of the way every time you talk about eternal life. Jesus didn't need to die at all with how you say that eternal life can be earned by man instead of it being a gift from God by grace through faith. Be careful you don't push Jesus out of you entirely or you'll end up faithless and destined for hell.

 

[Josiah]

To which Law are you referring?

Any moral law that starts "you...."

as you stated, 'to be as holy as God is, as perfect as God is, as loving as Jesus is, as obedient as Jesus.'

Yup. That's what Christians are to do/be. It's just not how anyone is ever justified. IF it were, then Jesus is a joke and not the Savior, IF it were, everyone would save themselves by being/doing all that God tells us to be/do.

are you suggesting that we are not subject to that Law? Which of course we are.

Of course we are. No one has ever questioned or denied such. Only that such isn't how we are saved (making Jesus a joke and not the Savior); it's your substitution of the Law for the Gospel, your insistence that self saves self by being obedient (yet seeming to know no one ever is).

This should be something we can discuss as maturing disciples of Jesus

YES! YES! YES! A THOUSAND TIMES YES! As we've been saying to you over and over and over again (to no avail!). But NOT HERE, this thread is not about what disciples of Jesus should or should not do, it's not about anything or anyone maturing in anything. It's about BECOMING saved, BECOMING a Christian. You seem to not know the difference; you just keep substituting the Law for the Gospel, self for Christ, insisting we trust in the one we see in the mirror rather than the one who died on the Cross. You keep substituting WHAT CHRISTIANS DO (or at least should) with HOW ONE BECOMES A CHRISTIAN (the exclusive, sole, only issue of this thread), sanctification for justification. And you are INSISTENT on this confusion, this substitution, this elimination of Jesus as Savior and this insistence every dead, atheistic enemy of God saves himself by being obedient (pure works righteousness, absolute denial of Jesus). THAT'S what we are objecting to. As has been explained to you over and over and over and over and over again, always to no avail.



See posts 4, 22, 43, 46, 53



A blessed Christmas season to all...


- Josiah




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[Josiah]

[MENTION=1032]Michael[/MENTION]


Law and Gospel....



The LAW:


What is the Law?

The Law is the will of God for people's lives - flowing from His absolute perfection and justice. It is, in essence, that we be as He is - not in terms of essence but character. We are "obedient" when we (in our character, our thoughts and words and deeds) perfectly, fully, in every sense fulfilling all the will of God; that we are as He is.



What does the Law mandate?

Essentially, that our character be identical to His.


Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."



Who is Obedient to the Law?


The word "sin" literally means "to miss the mark." In ancient Greece, if an archer missed the target, the therefore "sinned" because he missed the mark, missed the target. The Bible says "ALL fall short." IF you have absolutely, perfectly, divinely, 24/7 "hit" all the targets above, then you are obedient and free of sin. Otherwise...... Well, the Bible would be correct and not lying when it says that "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "For ALL fall short." "NO ONE is good." "If you claim to have no sin (you hit the mark), then you lie and call God a liar."


Psalm 51:5 "I was sinful at birth"

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."

There are at least 613 laws specifically written just in the Old Testament. We think often of the Ten Commandments but actually there are many, many more just in the OT - and still more in the NT.




The LAW has two functions:

Civil - Our relationships in this fallen world. This was not given until around 1400 BC when the first Law was given to Moses on Mount Sinai, with a purpose of GUIDING peoples' relationships. This is very much like our own national laws - they govern relationships. Civil law does not get us into heaven, it helps us get along with others, it helps our society work better.... if everyone kept the law, this would be a nicer place in which to live and die (and eventually go to hell). This applies just as much to non-Christians as to Christians - it applies to all.

The Law cannot save - and in this first use, it's not remotely its intention. Now.... true..... IF we kept all the law, we'd go to heaven (because we would not NEED God or Christ or mercy or forgiveness or salvation or justification or the Cross or the Blood - we'd not need the Gospel - because we'd essentially be God: divinely perfect, divinely holy, divinely loving..... totally, absolutely..... 100%....... 24/7...... but then in that case, we'd not need the civil law because we'd be perfect - in nature, in being, in attitude, in thought, in word, in deed.

We can NEVER achieve the Law (and we don't). Like Paul, we must confess that we are "CHIEF OF SINNERS" and that we are not - not - perfect as God demands.... but we CAN press on toward that. Why? Because Jesus was a joke and Christianity is wrong - we gotta save ourselves? WE save SELF via the Law - by being absolutely 100% perfect just as God is perfect? Nope. We press on toward that because our life and our world would be a whole lot better off. And because it pleases God whom we love.


Theological - Our relationship to God. This is to drive us to our knees, to drive us to despair, to accuse us, to drive us to God's MERCY, God's HEART, God's FORGIVENESS..... to reveal the need for a Savior, a Cross. We CANNOT and ARE NOT what God intends and commands. That NO ONE is righteous..... NO ONE is good..... every other religion on the planet is fundamentally wrong because we cannot clean up our act and become what God mandates: absolutely perfect, absolutely holy, absolutely loving.... if anyone CLAIMS to be without sin (to always hit the mark), well.... to be blunt..... they LIE and DECEIVE themselves (but no one else - least of all God!). We are SINNERS! We MISS THE MARK! We are FALLEN! We need SALVATION, MERCY, JUSTIFICATION... IF we look to the LAW as the tool of salvation, ALL that happens is that we get slapped down - completely, totally, every time. (Note: THIS is why people want to water down the law SO MUCH as to make it unrecognizable, insulting God and the Law - all to make it so that we can boast "but I keep the Law - I don't need no God, no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy - I got ME!!!" All as an enemy of Christ, a destroyer of the Gospel, all in an attempt to substitute the theology of Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism in place of Christianity - to promote THEIR soteriology which is "Self saves self although because of the TIME and HELP which God provides")

The theological use is to ask ourselves, "Am I all that God commands?" The only reasonable answer is: "NO!" And thus to flee to the mercy seat of God, the heart of God..... He who says "Yes" the Bible specifically says is a "fool" and is a "liar"





The GOSPEL


What is the Gospel?

It is the heart of God, the mercy of God, what God has done FOR us, the gifts from God, the promises of God, what God grants because He is loving and gracious - all in view of CHRIST alone: the Cross, the Blood, the Empty Tomb.


Galatians 2:21, "If justification were through the Law then Christ died for no purpose."

Philippians 3:9, "Not because of our works, lest anyone can boast."

Romans 3:20, "No human being will be justified in God's sight by works of the Law."

First John 4:10, "Not that we love God but rather that He loves us."

First John 4:8, "God is love."

John 3:16, "For God so (unconditionally) love the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life."

Romans 5:8, "God shows His love for us in that while we were enemies of God, Christ died for us."

First John 2:2, "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins."

Titus 3:5, "God saves us not because of our deeds of righteousness but rather in view of His own mercy."

Romans 6:23, "The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing but rather it is the free gift of God."

John 3:36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life."



This Gospel also applies to our lives as Christians....

Hebrews 13:5, "I will never leave you or forsake you."

First John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, God is faithful to His promise and will forgive our sins."

.... and so VERY much more.... all entirely because of the heart of God, the unconditional love of God, the mercy of God.... in view of the Lamb, the Blood, the Cross, the Christ, the Savior.


The Law does not negate or cancel or diminish the Gospel.... nor does the Gospel negate, cancel or diminish the Law... both are real, both are true, both stand in ALL their force and truth... and they can only accomplish their task if we allow them to stand FULLY - not watering them down, not confusing them, not entangling them, not misapplying them. A Christian (one who is justified, narrow - by Christ ALONE, by the SAVIOR, via the Cross, because of the Gospel!) is still called to absolute, total, divine perfection, holiness, obedience, love... still called to always, perfectly HIT THE MARK, right on, every time, 24/7, as much as God does, in our nature, our being, our attitude, our thoughts, our words, our deeds: both for civil reasons AND so that we realize we fail and need Gods' mercy. We strive forward because we love God and because this is the will of God..... but we never fully attain it, we miss the mark, we fall short more often and more greatly than we realize. And so, thanks be to God, the Gospel remains (FULLY, completely, in all its' power and force and beauty): God is merciful, God forgives, because of the Lamb, because of the Cross, because of the Blood, because of His unconditional love, because of His Son, because there is the SAVIOR - Jesus Christ.



.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=1032]Michael[/MENTION]


Jesus is the Savior. Job's taken.


The central message, the foundation, the keystone, the distinctive mark of the Christian faith is the belief that we are by nature DEAD and we can't do anything about that - "we've fallen and we can't get up", we are sinners. We need to be SAVED, RESCUED.... and that must come from God for ONLY He can do this.... and this has happened, Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does this via His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection. The Gospel is this: God comes to fallen, sinful, dead people (which is everyone) with mercy (not giving us what we deserve) and grace (giving us what we don't deserve) - with the GIFT of THE SAVIOR who saves.


The Devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny that. Even in the "old Adam" of the Christian. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.


The Gospel proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker or offerer). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). There is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the Mirror. It's not YOUR obedience (or anything else) that justifies (which would mean Jesus is not the Savior; Jesus doesn't save anyone) it's JESUS.


You'll find LOTS of Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually self is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism.


WHO is the SAVIOR?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. His fulfillment of the Law. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR steadfastness. YOUR doing stuff. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Which is it? It's simple. It's easy. It ain't rocket science. The Devil, the fallen world, our own sinful self will TRY as HARD AS WE CAN to say "self" while trying to sound Christian and fit Jesus in there somewhere, just not as THE SAVIOR. The Devil, the fallen world, our sinful self will try to pat self on the back for doing X,Y,Z - why we are headed for heaven, to make Jesus as small as we can, self as big as we can, to get our eyes off the Cross and on the mirror. The Devil will try as hard as he can to mix law and gospel, to confuse God's grace with self's works, to transform Jesus from SAVIOR to just a divine helper, a teacher/example/inspiration, a possibility-maker/door opener, the divine OFFERER.... ANYTHING that sounds good and pious but strips Jesus of the role of Savior. The Devil is fine with you worshiping and honoring Jesus - as long as that Jesus does not actually SAVE anyone, when people enter those pearly gates, they will pat SELF on the back. The Devil is cleaver, and as at the Temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, he can even quote Scripture, but you can always tell him lies: what he's really saying is YOU are the savior of YOU.... you will enter heaven because of what YOU do (he will settle for "Jesus did 99% of it and I only 1% but that 1% is why I'm going to heaven" - same/same)



A blessed Christmas season to all.



- Josiah






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[Lamb]

Because of Jesus' obedience we, by grace through faith, trust that we don't have to fulfill the Law's obligation toward God for Him to accept us and give us eternal life. He gives us eternal life only because of Jesus, not because of any of our efforts.

 

[Michael]

It is you who confuses Law and Gospel. God's Holy Law is what we refer to when we say Law, obviously. You preach Law without Gospel. Oh, sure you say you preach it but you don't. You push Jesus and His propitiation out of the way every time you talk about eternal life. Jesus didn't need to die at all with how you say that eternal life can be earned by man instead of it being a gift from God by grace through faith. Be careful you don't push Jesus out of you entirely or you'll end up faithless and destined for hell.

Ma'am, if you would please stop saying things I never said, or even believed, I would appreciate that.

If you would actually read or listen to anything that I preach in the churches in which I minister, you would know clearly that everything you stated above is the opposite of what I teach.

Perhaps you confuse me with another? :scratchchin: