Baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

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Lamb

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If you are of the believer who thinks baptism is merely a symbol, do you insist that baptisms are done in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? If it means nothing but a show to you in front of your congregation then why would it even matter?
 

vince284

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If you are of the believer who thinks baptism is merely a symbol, do you insist that baptisms are done in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? If it means nothing but a show to you in front of your congregation then why would it even matter?

It matters because those were the instructions given. Yet, there are people who believe not being baptized in the NAME, of Jesus doesn't work either, It's in the "Name" that gives the water power. And then many of those same believe that if a believer dies without being water baptized (i.e. believer believes on his death-bed) they will not get into heaven. So even though people believe it's a "symbol" as you say, it's much more to everyone else.
 

Josiah

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IMO....


1. Yes, Paul seems to suggest that baptisms done in any other name is ineffectual and divisive. The impression from the Book of Acts is that this is to be Trinitarian (with the Son being understood as Jesus, thus baptizing in His name).


2.
I strongly suspect that Jesus made Baptize CENTRAL to The Great Commission (equal to the one other thing - teaching) .... Baptism plays such a major role in Acts and all the NT..... Baptism was regarded as very important from at least 69 AD to 1520 AD by every Christian..... because it's important. And it's important because because something happens through it. If it were a largely worthless thing.... or accomplished nothing.... it's hard to understand why Jesus would place it equal with just one other thing - teaching, hard to image why it would be universally embraced as SO important for over 1500 years (and still by the vast majority of Christians) if it was just an irrelevant waste of water. Consider: Jesus also washed the disciples' feet - and that was understood as purely symbolic - but it didn't get mentioned in The Great Commission.... it was not practiced in the Early Church.... because it was universally understood by all right from the start as symbolic and actually doing nothing (but getting manure off feet). It seems Baptism was regarded VERY differently than that.


3. There are two main Traditions about Baptism.

A. The orthodox, historic view dates from 69 AD at the very latest. I holds that Baptism is a "Means of Grace" (along with teaching - the other half of the Great Commission) which God may use to convey His blessings and gifts, "tools in the hands of the Carpenter" (to use the expression from medieval times). And that it is associated with faith and forgiveness. This view has no dogmatic prohibitions: none according to age, race, color, nationality, gender; no conditions of PREVIOUS "hoops" the recipient has done, no dogmatic prohibitions based on works. This view sees some connection to circumcision (done on infants.... without them first having to meet certain dogmatic mandates), a connection Scripture itself makes; and also a connection to the last of the Seven Plagues when parents embraced God's promise and by placing Blood, literally saved the life of their children (without the child needing to do or have anything; jumping through any hoops). This view has no prohibitions - noting Scripture has done. This view was universal from 69 - 1520 AD, and is still embraced by the great majority. I have a thread on this here: https://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6945-Lutheran-Perspective-on-Baptism Also see https://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?7346-Baptism-Is-it-Innert-or-Effectual


B. The Anabaptists in the 16th Century invented another tradition. It claims there are several mandates and prohibitions that apply, although they admitted none of these are explicitely taught in Scripture and admit none of this was embraced for 1500 years before them; they admitted to inviting something brand new. They created 4 dogmas on this: 1) The recipient MUST attain a certain (unknown) age (Anti-Paedobaptism). 2) The recipient MUST first prove they have accepted Jesus as their personal Savior - usually a clear, consistent profession is sufficient (Credobaptism), 3) The recipient MUST first prove they have adequately repented of all their sins. They added a fourth that has to do with mode rather than prohibitions 4) Every cell of the recipients body must be entirely immersed under water (Immersion Only Baptism). Again, they said none of this is expressly taught in Scripture ... none of this was believed before them... but they imposed it anyway. They also tended to teach that Baptism is merely symbolic, "An outward sign of an inner decision" - although they admitted the Bible never actually says that. This view is essentially one of denial and prohibitions. Ironically, they spoke of the meanlessness of Baptism so much that their followers often became known as "Baptists."


I hope that helps.


- Josiah
 

MennoSota

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It matters because those were the instructions given. Yet, there are people who believe not being baptized in the NAME, of Jesus doesn't work either, It's in the "Name" that gives the water power. And then many of those same believe that if a believer dies without being water baptized (i.e. believer believes on his death-bed) they will not get into heaven. So even though people believe it's a "symbol" as you say, it's much more to everyone else.
Why would anyone think water becomes empowered?
 

NewCreation435

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it isn't just a show, but it is also an act of obedience because the Lord tells us to be baptized.
 

MennoSota

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it isn't just a show, but it is also an act of obedience because the Lord tells us to be baptized.
We are obediently expressing to the world that God, by His Holy Spirit, has immersed us into Christ. We have died to self and have been raised to new life in Christ Jesus.
 

Josiah

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it isn't just a show, but it is also an act of obedience because the Lord tells us to be baptized.


True.... But IMO, He commands it.....places so much importance on it..... probably not because it's unimportant and nothing much happens because of it. Some disagree. Jesus also commands teaching... and I do that.... but not ONLY because I gotta jump through this hoop (largely wasting my time and energy) but because I conclude it's likely important and something can happen as a result. Just my "take."
 

atpollard

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True.... But IMO, He commands it.....places so much importance on it..... probably not because it's unimportant and nothing much happens because of it. Some disagree. Jesus also commands teaching... and I do that.... but not ONLY because I gotta jump through this hoop (largely wasting my time and energy) but because I conclude it's likely important and something can happen as a result. Just my "take."

When God commanded Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, was there really something magical in the fruit that granted some special knowledge, or was the whole point the innocence that comes with “obedience” and the experiential knowledge of sin that comes from “disobedience”?

When a lamb was slain under the Mosaic Covenant, was there really something magical in the blood of the lamb that granted forgiveness of sin, or was the whole point the forgiveness that comes with “obedience” and the symbolism of the future “ultimate sacrifice” of Jesus?
 

Josiah

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When God commanded Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, was there really something magical in the fruit that granted some special knowledge, or was the whole point the innocence that comes with “obedience” and the experiential knowledge of sin that comes from “disobedience”?

I don't know. Quote the verse you have in mine.



apollard said:
When a lamb was slain under the Mosaic Covenant, was there really something magical in the blood of the lamb that granted forgiveness of sin, or was the whole point the forgiveness that comes with “obedience” and the symbolism of the future “ultimate sacrifice” of Jesus?

I don't know if obedience is the point, I think that forgiveness involves the shedding of Blood is the "symbolism" if you want to put it that way.

But I don't see anything in Scripture that indicates that the reason why Baptism is SO stressed..... is placed in the Great Commission with only one other thing and seemingly equal to it..... is so stressed in Acts and in the NT... is so stressed in the Early Church.... is not because Baptism was regarded as unimportant, doing nothing, but just being a hoop suggesting obedience. And why wouldn't the verses about it not stress (or even mention) obedience rather than forgiveness and even salvation?

But alas, questions do not doctrine make.
 

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Across much of the world a person pays a high price for being baptized. It shows the rebel world that this individual forsakes all to die with Christ and be raised to new life. It symbolizes the exile in a foreign land who pledges allegiance to a new Kingdom.
 

Andrew

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No lie, but if I ever had a kid the first thing on my mind would be to have him/her baptised, I would also be making a personal and strict covenant with God that I would raise this child on the gospel of good news and walk this child in my walk with God.
Also when I found my peace and understanding with God the first thing I wanted to do was to get baptized (even though I was baptised as an infant)...
Call me old fashion but I believe it's the Christian way of fastening your covenant with God through and with an element we need to come across many times throughout the day anyway... it doesn't bite ya know ;)
 

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Someone recently lamented that “Baptists” no longer post here.

In response, I suggest that Lutherans please stop creating topics like this that are deliberate invitations for Credo(believer)baptists to come and be ridiculed by Paedo(infant)baptists for honoring Christ through obeying Scripture as the Holy Spirit has led our conscience to understand the word of God. This site has not been “Baptist” friendly in my experience here. So I post far less than I once did.

YMMV
 

Lamb

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Someone recently lamented that “Baptists” no longer post here.

In response, I suggest that Lutherans please stop creating topics like this that are deliberate invitations for Credo(believer)baptists to come and be ridiculed by Paedo(infant)baptists for honoring Christ through obeying Scripture as the Holy Spirit has led our conscience to understand the word of God. This site has not been “Baptist” friendly in my experience here. So I post far less than I once did.

YMMV

My question was a reasonable one. As the author of the thread, I wanted to know why something merely symbolic (to those who believe it as such) would have such strict established rules? Why would it really matter?
 

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My question was a reasonable one. As the author of the thread, I wanted to know why something merely symbolic (to those who believe it as such) would have such strict established rules? Why would it really matter?

Let me ask you a question in return.
Suppose, just for the sake of this discussion, that the wafer given at communion contains absolutely ZERO “spiritual” and “physical” linkage with the literal Body of Christ (His post-resurrection flesh). Would it then be appropriate, in your opinion, to take any “bread” in any “manner” because it was all “merely symbolic”? Should we discard all rules and toss Ritz Crackers from the pulpit and attempt to get them into people’s mouth? After all, it is “merely symbolic”, so why should it matter?

Do you think that was honestly respectful of the non-transsubstantiation view of the unimportance of the Eucharist?
Yet you bait Baptists by calling our beliefs “mere symbolism” (like the cross around your neck ... that is a mere symbol) (or death and rebirth in Christ ... you did not literally die and receive a glorified resurrection body) and ask why obeying scripture matters to us.
[Why would anyone take offense at that?]

If you cannot see it, then you have the board you deserve ... pro-Lutheran and anti-Baptist ... just do not be surprised that Baptists do not flock here to be baited and mocked.
 

Lamb

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Let me ask you a question in return.
Suppose, just for the sake of this discussion, that the wafer given at communion contains absolutely ZERO “spiritual” and “physical” linkage with the literal Body of Christ (His post-resurrection flesh). Would it then be appropriate, in your opinion, to take any “bread” in any “manner” because it was all “merely symbolic”? Should we discard all rules and toss Ritz Crackers from the pulpit and attempt to get them into people’s mouth? After all, it is “merely symbolic”, so why should it matter?

Do you think that was honestly respectful of the non-transsubstantiation view of the unimportance of the Eucharist?
Yet you bait Baptists by calling our beliefs “mere symbolism” (like the cross around your neck ... that is a mere symbol) (or death and rebirth in Christ ... you did not literally die and receive a glorified resurrection body) and ask why obeying scripture matters to us.
[Why would anyone take offense at that?]

If you cannot see it, then you have the board you deserve ... pro-Lutheran and anti-Baptist ... just do not be surprised that Baptists do not flock here to be baited and mocked.

I hear about the mocking of our Lord's body and blood all the time so it's nothing new. I was asking a question in this thread because it came to mind that there are a lot of strict things in regards to baptism that people insist upon but also insist God isn't involved. It's just strange to me that they insist that there is a formula that "needs" to be followed but that God doesn't "do" anything after His name is invoked. Does that make sense now why I started this thread?

You are accusing me of starting a thread to bait you and I'm trying to tell you that a thought came to mind so I wanted to know the answer.
 

Andrew

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Let me ask you a question in return.
Suppose, just for the sake of this discussion, that the wafer given at communion contains absolutely ZERO “spiritual” and “physical” linkage with the literal Body of Christ (His post-resurrection flesh). Would it then be appropriate, in your opinion, to take any “bread” in any “manner” because it was all “merely symbolic”? Should we discard all rules and toss Ritz Crackers from the pulpit and attempt to get them into people’s mouth? After all, it is “merely symbolic”, so why should it matter?

Do you think that was honestly respectful of the non-transsubstantiation view of the unimportance of the Eucharist?
Yet you bait Baptists by calling our beliefs “mere symbolism” (like the cross around your neck ... that is a mere symbol) (or death and rebirth in Christ ... you did not literally die and receive a glorified resurrection body) and ask why obeying scripture matters to us.
[Why would anyone take offense at that?]

If you cannot see it, then you have the board you deserve ... pro-Lutheran and anti-Baptist ... just do not be surprised that Baptists do not flock here to be baited and mocked.
Baptism is a touchy topic when it's thrown into a theology sub forum, you can stick to your guns and you should but we should all consider the other sides opinion and hear them out.
For example the staff disagrees on many theological view points with each other but we still engage and express our separate views to each other without fear of scrutiny. It's all part of the game.. but let's always put God first and be fruitful, even the disciples argued over who was the greatest and it was technically a debate was it not?
 

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Baptism is a touchy topic when it's thrown into a theology sub forum, you can stick to your guns and you should but we should all consider the other sides opinion and hear them out.
For example the staff disagrees on many theological view points with each other but we still engage and express our separate views to each other without fear of scrutiny. It's all part of the game.. but let's always put God first and be fruitful, even the disciples argued over who was the greatest and it was technically a debate was it not?

I meant to stir up no trouble. I saw a question on a locked thread about Baptist participation and attempted to answer it as a Particular Baptist in a related thread with an anti-Credobaptist tone. I will leave you to your peace and quiet now.

(I have already greatly reduced my presence here as non-edifying for me or for others.)
 

Andrew

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I meant to stir up no trouble. I saw a question on a locked thread about Baptist participation and attempted to answer it in a related thread with an anti-Credobaptist tone. I will leave you to your peace and quiet now.

(I have already greatly reduced my presence here as non-edifying for me or for others.)
I likewise meant to stir no trouble.. engaging is delightful and I enjoy the conversations here but when accusations that the staff is bias occur I just tend to reiterate that it is not the case. Please we can move on back to the topic, I wasn't coming down on you atpollard you brought up some views and I am only interacting and joining in conversation :)
 

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I meant to stir up no trouble. I saw a question on a locked thread about Baptist participation and attempted to answer it as a Particular Baptist in a related thread with an anti-Credobaptist tone. I will leave you to your peace and quiet now.

(I have already greatly reduced my presence here as non-edifying for me or for others.)

Threads get closed because they turn into flamefests. We don't close because of doctrine (as long as they're Christian doctrines....other ones will be moved to World Theology).

The biggest threat to our site has always been the flaming that members shoot at each other.
 

NewCreation435

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My question was a reasonable one. As the author of the thread, I wanted to know why something merely symbolic (to those who believe it as such) would have such strict established rules? Why would it really matter?

here in this passage in Matthew 28:15-20 it is commanded from Jesus for disciples to baptize in this manner. Regardless of whether it is symbolic or not that is reason enough to do this.
16 "Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
 
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