Biblical Repentance

[MennoSota]

Nobody said hard work gets anyone to heaven...

But obedience to Christ sure does...

Disobedience to Christ does the opposite...



God's Grace IS the Kingdom of Heaven...



You must repent of your sins and turn from them to God...
IF you do so, no matter how feebly, God will Save you...



I am sorry you remain dead, Menno...



Always and unto the ages of ages...



Are you still dead in your trespasses?

Is that why you keep accusing others of being dead in theirs?

The dead wrong can only self-justify by calling others dead wrong, Menno...

Demons do it all the time...

Why are you joining them?


Arsenios

No. Obedience to Christ does not get you to heaven. Why? Because one failure disqualifies you.
God's grace, which gifts you faith, gets you to heaven.
Those whom God has given faith will obey, not out of legalistic duty, but purely out of deep love because God has shown amazing grace to them.
Arsenios, all your works of "obedience" are as filthy rags before God's perfect holiness. You can never make yourself holy enough for God to be pleased with your efforts.
Obedience does not get you into heaven, Arsenios. Obedience expresses your gratefulness to God who saves you purely by his mercy and grace...apart from your works.

 

[MennoSota]

Jesus failed with them...

He was unable to convert them...

Free-will is like that...

You suffer with it like they did...

His rebuke of them failed, Menno...

And they crucified Him...


Arsenios

Jesus failed???
How weak your god is, Arsenios. God never fails. God always chooses and those whom He chooses always receive faith, purely by God's grace alone.
You make me sad to see how small your god is. He is not the God of the Bible whom you know.

 

[Arsenios]

No. Obedience to Christ does not get you to heaven. Why? Because one failure disqualifies you.
God's grace, which gifts you faith, gets you to heaven.
Those whom God has given faith will obey, not out of legalistic duty, but purely out of deep love because God has shown amazing grace to them.
Arsenios, all your works of "obedience" are as filthy rags before God's perfect holiness. You can never make yourself holy enough for God to be pleased with your efforts.
Obedience does not get you into heaven, Arsenios. Obedience expresses your gratefulness to God who saves you purely by his mercy and grace...apart from your works.

My Brother, I cannot make myself holy AT ALL...
God alone gets me into Heaven...
He only asks me to turn to Him in repentance...
And in this, I obey, and He is faithful...

I live in constant gratitude to God...
We are Saved by God THROUGH Faith...
That Faith, which Christ discipled to His Apostles...
The Faith of Christ is a Great Work...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Jesus failed???
How weak your god is, Arsenios. God never fails. God always chooses and those whom He chooses always receive faith, purely by God's grace alone.
You make me sad to see how small your god is. He is not the God of the Bible whom you know.

Did Israel embrace Christ?
Christ tried all He was able to try for them...
They crucified Him Menno...
Granted, that failure was His Success!

Welcome to another paradox of the Faith!

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

My Brother, I cannot make myself holy AT ALL...
God alone gets me into Heaven...
He only asks me to turn to Him in repentance...
And in this, I obey, and He is faithful...

I live in constant gratitude to God...
We are Saved by God THROUGH Faith...
That Faith, which Christ discipled to His Apostles...
The Faith of Christ is a Great Work...

Arsenios

So... obedience doesn't get you into heaven, even though you said it did?

Arsenios, you and I are incapable of obeying God until God makes us alive in Christ. You didn't choose to obey God in order to start a relationship with God. God chose you in order to make you alive with Christ when you were dead in your trespasses and sins. God made you alive with Christ so that you could obey and enjoy Him forever.
Give God the glory. It's all God's work on behalf of your sinful self.

 

[MennoSota]

Did Israel embrace Christ?
Christ tried all He was able to try for them...
They crucified Him Menno...
Granted, that failure was His Success!

Welcome to another paradox of the Faith!

Arsenios

Those in Israel, whom God chose, embraced Christ as God made them alive with Christ. Those who remained dead in their trespasses and sins considered Jesus a liar and a lunatic. They died in their sins. They were never children of the promise.
How is it that you fail to see this truth in Scripture, Arsenios?

 

[Arsenios]

So... obedience doesn't get you into heaven, even though you said it did?

"Of God the Gift", my Brother - "And not of works, lest any should boast..."

The last is added because the works are many...

Remember Paul telling us how those called to be Apostles are as appointed unto death?

And how he desires that we imitate him?

Arsenios, you and I are incapable of obeying God until God makes us alive in Christ.

True enough - I was obeying Him while denying His existence...

Go figure!

You didn't choose to obey God in order to start a relationship with God.

I didn't - I could prove He doesn't exist...

I still can...

But I lived a totally repentant life unto death in a quest to heal my own soul...

And I failed...

And God came as I turned from life...

God chose you in order to make you alive with Christ when you were dead in your trespasses and sins.

He came when I reached the end of my efforts and turned from life...

God made you alive with Christ so that you could obey and enjoy Him forever.

I really think I am mostly an exception to the rule...

Most come to God in the embrace of the Faith...

I ended up coming to Him denying His existence...

I proved to God that He does not exist once...

A pretty funny encounter, actually...

He agreed, saying He is the Giver of existence...

The Church in its apophatic theology calls Him SUPRA-existent...

Talking to Someone Who knows what you are going to say before you say it...

Well... Funny conversations can ensue...

God neither exists nor does He not exist...

And He saturates all existence, and all existence is created...

God is not created...

Give God the glory. It's all God's work on behalf of your sinful self.

Glory to God in all things... The Good, the bad, and all in-between...

Of my own efforts I was headed into the grave...

God gave me Meaning and Life and Joy...

My life is all God's, even as I struggle to keep vigil against sin...

In which I will endure to the end, God willing...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Those in Israel, whom God chose, embraced Christ as God made them alive with Christ. Those who remained dead in their trespasses and sins considered Jesus a liar and a lunatic. They died in their sins. They were never children of the promise.
How is it that you fail to see this truth in Scripture, Arsenios?

Israel Herself did not come to Christ...

And Christ tried...

My God how He tried for them...

"But"... As Christ said... "They would not..."

And He could not gather them, as a hen her chicks, and take them under His Wing...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

"Of God the Gift", my Brother - "And not of works, lest any should boast..."

The last is added because the works are many...

Remember Paul telling us how those called to be Apostles are as appointed unto death?

And how he desires that we imitate him?



True enough - I was obeying Him while denying His existence...

Go figure!



I didn't - I could prove He doesn't exist...

I still can...

But I lived a totally repentant life unto death in a quest to heal my own soul...

And I failed...

And God came as I turned from life...



He came when I reached the end of my efforts and turned from life...



I really think I am mostly an exception to the rule...

Most come to God in the embrace of the Faith...

I ended up coming to Him denying His existence...

I proved to God that He does not exist once...

A pretty funny encounter, actually...

He agreed, saying He is the Giver of existence...

The Church in its apophatic theology calls Him SUPRA-existent...

Talking to Someone Who knows what you are going to say before you say it...

Well... Funny conversations can ensue...

God neither exists nor does He not exist...

And He saturates all existence, and all existence is created...

God is not created...



Glory to God in all things... The Good, the bad, and all in-between...

Of my own efforts I was headed into the grave...

God gave me Meaning and Life and Joy...

My life is all God's, even as I struggle to keep vigil against sin...

In which I will endure to the end, God willing...


Arsenios

The rule is this: All humans rebel and reject God, by nature. They are dead in their trespasses and sins. Not one willfully chooses God because they hate God being Supreme.
When God chooses to be gracious and adopt us rebels, he destroys our rebel heart and brings us to see our unfixable condition. We cannot fix or save ourselves. We are utterly hopeless.
God brings us to the brink. As Jonathan Edwards stated, we recognize that we are like a spider dangling by a thread over the fire and it is God who holds the thread. His choice determines our destiny. Will he justly drop us in the flames or will he graciously save us from the flames? God makes that decision. Our efforts at obedience do not affect his decision for we fail in our obedience. His decision is made purely by His Sovereign will, with no consultation with us. We dangle at his mercy. When he chooses mercy we are eternally grateful.

 

[MennoSota]

Israel Herself did not come to Christ...

And Christ tried...

My God how He tried for them...

"But"... As Christ said... "They would not..."

And He could not gather them, as a hen her chicks, and take them under His Wing...


Arsenios

All whom God chose...came. Those whom God did not choose...did not come.
The message is universal, but only God's sheep hear His voice and follow.
God chooses the sheep.

 

[Arsenios]

All whom God chose...came. Those whom God did not choose...did not come.
The message is universal, but only God's sheep hear His voice and follow.
God chooses the sheep.

Your argument is with Christ:

Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
Thou that killest the prophets,
And stonest them which are sent unto thee,
How often would I have gathered thy children together,
Even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,
And ye would not!


Christ wanted them to turn to Him in repentance,
And they would not...

"They would not" means they were not willing, Menno...
God WANTED them to, and they WOULD NOT...

Won't you even believe Christ's very words here?

Human willingness is central to Christ's Household of Salvation...

Their free human willingness...

Without it there is no Salvation by God...


Arsenios

 

[Michael]

Your argument is with Christ:

Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
Thou that killest the prophets,
And stonest them which are sent unto thee,
How often would I have gathered thy children together,
Even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,
And ye would not!


Christ wanted them to turn to Him in repentance,
And they would not...

"They would not" means they were not willing, Menno...
God WANTED them to, and they WOULD NOT...

Won't you even believe Christ's very words here?

Human willingness is central to Christ's Household of Salvation...

Their free human willingness...

Without it there is no Salvation by God...

Arsenios

Amen.

And again the Word declares that God desires that none would perish, but rather come to Repentance, True Repentance as I spoken much of in this thread.

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." - 2Pet 3:9

This Truth cannot be denied.

All to whom Jesus invited, "follow Me" did NOT follow Him. Yes, the choice is ours.

 

[MennoSota]

Your argument is with Christ:

Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
Thou that killest the prophets,
And stonest them which are sent unto thee,
How often would I have gathered thy children together,
Even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,
And ye would not!


Christ wanted them to turn to Him in repentance,
And they would not...

"They would not" means they were not willing, Menno...
God WANTED them to, and they WOULD NOT...

Won't you even believe Christ's very words here?

Human willingness is central to Christ's Household of Salvation...

Their free human willingness...

Without it there is no Salvation by God...


Arsenios

Does Jesus say he "could not" gather them? No. He says that their natural desire is rebellion against God.
Here is what Jesus says about salvation:
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:37-39

"All the Father gives me will come to me."
There is no failure by God, as you have claimed. Instead, there is Sovereign choice. God chooses who will come and...they come.

 

[Lamb]

The Bible tells us that God CALLS us to repentance...

Nowhere does it say that repentance is a Gift FROM God...

The Call of God is for US to turn from sin to Him...

IF you answer the Call and obey the Gospel of Repentance...

THEN God is faithful and will Save you...


Arsenios





.

If something is given to you by God, it is a gift:

Acts 5:31 "Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."
2 Timothy 2:25 "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth"

The verses above show that God is at the hand of our repentance. He "gives" repentance and "grants" it.

 

[Arsenios]

If something is given to you by God, it is a gift:

Acts 5:31 "Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."
2 Timothy 2:25 "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth"

The verses above show that God is at the hand of our repentance. He "gives" repentance and "grants" it.

There is a sense in which God "gives" and "grants" repentance...

God gave repentance as the Call of God TO repentance - Which Israel did not obey...

And to non-believers God can Call them to repentance, and when He does, their former disbelief can change, where they know as a result of that Call that God is real and repentance is the right thing to do...

You see, the presence of God is so Holy when He Calls one to Repentance that one wants only to repent from sin and turn to God...
And in this, one might think with some justification that God has granted him or her repentance, for He has...
But this Gift will fade with time, so that the Church disciples the acquisition of the virtue of repentance while it is fresh and new and living...
So that when it fades one will have in one's self a basis for maintaining repentance as one's way of life...

Some do see this fading as meaning that God no longer wants their repentance, that they are Saved and no longer need to be vigilant...
Those who do are normally then pretty low hanging fruit for hungry demonic powers...
Christian virtue(s) is not for bragging rights, but for survival in battle against enemies in the war for your soul...
Everyone is "virtuous" with Grace saturating one's soul...
But when it departs, who then will keep the narrow and obstructed Way that leads to eternal Life?


Arsenios

 

[Michael]

If something is given to you by God, it is a gift:

Acts 5:31 "Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."
2 Timothy 2:25 "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth"

The verses above show that God is at the hand of our repentance. He "gives" repentance and "grants" it.

Indeed the opportunity is there for all to "turn from sin" and turn to God.

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." - 2Pet 3:9

 

[Lamb]

There is a sense in which God "gives" and "grants" repentance...

God gave repentance as the Call of God TO repentance - Which Israel did not obey...

And to non-believers God can Call them to repentance, and when He does, their former disbelief can change, where they know as a result of that Call that God is real and repentance is the right thing to do...

You see, the presence of God is so Holy when He Calls one to Repentance that one wants only to repent from sin and turn to God...
And in this, one might think with some justification that God has granted him or her repentance, for He has...
But this Gift will fade with time, so that the Church disciples the acquisition of the virtue of repentance while it is fresh and new and living...
So that when it fades one will have in one's self a basis for maintaining repentance as one's way of life...

Some do see this fading as meaning that God no longer wants their repentance, that they are Saved and no longer need to be vigilant...
Those who do are normally then pretty low hanging fruit for hungry demonic powers...
Christian virtue(s) is not for bragging rights, but for survival in battle against enemies in the war for your soul...
Everyone is "virtuous" with Grace saturating one's soul...
But when it departs, who then will keep the narrow and obstructed Way that leads to eternal Life?


Arsenios

When God calls to repentance, grants repentance and gives repentance, that's all God's work in man. We repent but we cannot do so without God's first giving us that gift of calling, granting, giving it to us.

 

[Lamb]

Indeed the opportunity is there for all to "turn from sin" and turn to God.

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." - 2Pet 3:9

And our turning away from sin isn't what gives us eternal life because Jesus said this, "Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment." We believe in Jesus and what the forgiveness from His death on the cross for eternal life.

 

[Arsenios]

When God calls to repentance, grants repentance and gives repentance, that's all God's work in man. We repent but we cannot do so without God's first giving us that gift of calling, granting, giving it to us.

It begins, or at least it can begin, with God providing your repentance for you as training wheels keep a small child upright on his bike...
And just as we slowly raise the training wheels higher and higher for the child until he no longer needs them...
So also does God imperceptibly slowly withdraw His Grace as we acquire the virtues of the Praxis of the Faith Christ is giving us...

Your difficulty, Lamm, is that inasmuch as God is fully giving you repentance with no effort on your part, you are weak in the Faith...
We need the virtue of the practice of the Faith in order to embed it in our soul, so that when Grace departs, we will stand and not fall...

So instead of God doing it all for us initially which thereby gives it to us, that initial giving is detrimental to our acquisition of Christian virtues...
And when Grace departs, we will be awash in weakness, unless we struggle to acquire even more of what was given so freely...

Any yo-yo can be washed along in the saturation flow of God's Grace and think he is holy...
And nothing could be further from the truth...

The cost of discipleship is your life...
The reward is Christ's Life in you...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

And our turning away from sin isn't what gives us eternal life...

Amen - ONLY God can give Life Eternal...

He gives it to those brought nigh unto Him through repentance...


Arsenios