If paedobaptism were taught...

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Lamb

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The great commission... Mathew 28:16-20

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

While the age of the person to be baptized is not referenced directly but it requires the person to be made a disciple and then to proceed to teach them to observe all that Jesus has commanded you after being baptized. How exactly do you expect to make an infant a disciple and how are you going to teach them anything that Jesus commanded when they can't even speak or understand any language of any kind?

The conditions set forth by Jesus don't point to a specific age when someone can be baptized but it does rule out infants simply because they cannot be made a disciple or be taught the commands of Jesus which are required of all who are to be baptized.

Isn't God's word alive and active (Hebrews 4)? THAT is how an infant is taught God's word, by God Himself who can reach anything He wants. I mean, God can make a donkey talk so He can give an infant faith.
 

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~That is most astonishing, and completely foreign and opposite from what scripture teaches.
So you're saying "once water-baptised, always saved'?!

No. I did not say that.

That because a person was water-baptized as an infant, their place is secured in heaven, even though they never believed in Jesus?

You don't think infants can believe even though John while in the womb jumped for joy when Mary who was carrying Jesus came near. Infants CAN believe in God.


But a person who believed in Jesus does not get heaven because he was never water-baptized?!

I never said that.


Please say it ain't so...that would be a works-based salvation and a false gospel. Can you please explain why you believe that water-baptism secures salvation for an unbeliever, while faith in Jesus without water-baptism, does not?
Thank you for your reply. †

I never said that it does. I'm saying that because of God's promises in baptism that infants can have faith given to them in it.

Please read again what I wrote because most of your questions here are asking things that I never said.
 

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Im sure the early Christians baptised new born and warned them about the world and to teach them about salvation through Jesus, much different than today, they get baptised and the parents should be walking them through life with God but im not sure it's the same anymore. We need to get back to how early christians thought about baptism

You are correct because the early church understood that baptism and teaching go hand in hand. You baptize and you teach...you teach and you baptize. Jesus didn't want one without the other which is why He said for the disciples to baptize AND teach.
 

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You are correct because the early church understood that baptism and teaching go hand in hand. You baptize and you teach...you teach and you baptize. Jesus didn't want one without the other which is why He said for the disciples to baptize AND teach.
What biblical evidence shows baptizing before teaching about the need for salvation? In every text I read there is a clear teaching to people that they must confess and repent. Only after this message is anyone baptized.
What writing shows the context of first baptizing a person and then, later on, teaching them that they are sinners in need of redemption? I have yet to read that text, but perhaps you or someone else can provide that text.
 

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It looks like the first reference to infant baptism comes 200 years after the Apostles.

The earliest explicit mention of infant “baptism” in the history of the church is from the African church father, Tertullian, who lived from about A.D. 160 to about 220. He was born in Carthage, studied in Rome for a legal career and was converted to Christianity in about 195. He was the first Christian theologian to write in Latin and exerted significant influence through his apologetic works.

The work,*de baptismo*(Concerning Baptism) was written, evidently between 200 and 206. In it Tertullian questions the wisdom of giving baptism to infants. He says,

According to everyone’s condition and disposition, and also his age, the delaying of baptism is more profitable, especially in the case of little children. For why is it necessary—if [baptism itself] is not necessary—that the sponsors should be thrust into danger? For they may either fail of their promise by death, or they may be mistaken by a child’s proving of wicked disposition…. They that understand the weight of baptism will rather dread the receiving of it, than the delaying of it. An entire faith is secure of salvation! (de baptismo, ch. xviii)

What we see here is that the first explicit witness to infant baptism does not assume that it is a given. In other words, at the turn of the third century it is not taken for granted, as it is 200 years later when St. Augustine addresses the matter. Tertullian speaks the way one would if the practice were in dispute, possibly as a more recent development.

When we look at the New Testament, the closest thing to infant baptism that we find is the reference to three “households” being baptized. In*1 Corinthians 1:16, Paul says, “Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.” In*Acts 16:15, Luke reports concerning the new convert, Lydia, “When she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, ‘If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.’” And in*Acts 16:33, Luke tells us that after the earthquake in the jail of Philippi, the jailer “took [Paul and Silas] that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his [household].”

It is significant that in regard to the family of the Philippian jailer Luke reports in*Acts 16:32, just before mentioning the baptism of the jailer’s household, “[Paul and Silas]*spoke the word of the Lord*to him together with all who were in his house.” This seems to be Luke’s way of saying that hearing and believing the word is a prerequisite to baptism. The whole household heard the word and the whole household was baptized. In any case, there is no mention of infants in any of these three instances of household baptisms, and it is an argument from silence to say that there must have been small children. It would be like saying here at Bethlehem that a reference to Ross Anderson’s household or Don Brown’s or Dennis Smith’s or David Michael’s or David Livingston’s or dozens of others must include infants, which they don’t.

Yet from these texts, Joachim Jeremias, who wrote one of the most influential books in defense of infant baptism, concluded, “It is characteristic that Luke could report the matter thus. For by so doing he gives expression to the fact that ‘the solidarity of the family in baptism*and not the individual decision of the single member’ was the decisive consideration” (Infant Baptism in the First Four Centuries, 1960, p. 23, quoting Oscar Cullman,*Baptism in the New Testament, 1950, p. 45). I would rather say that the entire drift of the New Testament, and many particular sayings, is in the opposite direction: it is precisely the individual in his relation to Christ that is decisive in the New Testament, rather than solidarity in the flesh. “It is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants” (Romans 9:8).

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/how-old-is-infant-baptism
 

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What biblical evidence shows baptizing before teaching about the need for salvation? In every text I read there is a clear teaching to people that they must confess and repent. Only after this message is anyone baptized.
What writing shows the context of first baptizing a person and then, later on, teaching them that they are sinners in need of redemption? I have yet to read that text, but perhaps you or someone else can provide that text.

Entire households were baptized as we've brought up before in these types of threads. That would always include the servants and their children as well. Households weren't like today where there people used birth control to hold off on having children. They believed children were a blessing from God.

It looks like the first reference to infant baptism comes 200 years after the Apostles.


https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/how-old-is-infant-baptism

Polycarp (69-155), a disciple of the Apostle John, was baptized as an infant.
 

Josiah

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.... INFANT Baptism..... The thread is...if paedobaptism were taught in scripture



You insist you have no position on Baptism that concerns AGE..... and yet you rant ON AND ON AND ON AND ON - for nearly 2 years, in thread after thread, about how wrong, how heretical INFANT Baptism is. How it's forbidden to baptize those under an age you won't disclose. You insist you don't support the Baptist Dogma of Anti-Paedobaptism but then that's EXACTLY what you do - endlessly - parroting the Anabaptist tradition of Anti-Paedobaptism, a dogma exclusively about age.
There is no dogma that states "One must be baptized by the age of X." The issue of AGE that you are so extremely obsessed about is YOUR obsession.





You'll ignore this...... AGAIN:


As has been explained to you - MANY times - but always entirely ignored and evaded - is that 100% of Christians prior to those wackidoddle Anabaptists in the late 16th Century and maybe 90% since - reject your prohibition based on AGE because the Bible states no such prohibition. The Anabaptists just make it up. And they admitted they had not one Scripture to support their invented dogma (being honest.... something lacking in you). We'd point out there also is no dogmatic prohibition on Baptism of race, gender, skin color, shoe size, IQ, ethnicity, native language, education or hair color. You could just make it up (as the Anabaptist did with the AGE prohibition) but Scripture states no such thing. You could insist that Americans are forbidden to be baptized because nowhere does the Bible state "....and this includes Americans" and you feel not every case of baptism that happens to be recorded in the Bible is of a citizen of the USA (the same apologetic you use for your dogma of Anti-Paedobaptism) but you'd just be inventing a new dogma and have the same silly apologetic you yourself reject (and prove that you do every time you post on the internet). You'd actually have a stronger case if you invented a dogma forbidding US Citizens than you do forbidding those under a certain age you don't disclose.

BTW, I created an entire thread to share the basis of non-age restrictive baptism; you pretty much ignored it.


There is a commandment (one of the Big Ten) that STATES, "Thou shall not kill." Now, your position is that 15 Centuries later, a group could invent a new Dogma, "But people with dark skin are exempt from this (and we don't tell you how dark the skin must be before you are forbidden to apply this commandment to them)." And then kill Blacks. You'd use the same identical apologetic on that as you do with your Anti-Paedobaptism dogma: Nowhere does the Bible state, '.... and this includes those with dark skin' and there's not one example of a Black person being protected from death." But your late invented dogma would be silly. And wrong.





MennoSota said:
So far you have provided zero evidence from scripture.


Yup. You've yet to present any Scripture that 100% of Christians never once noticed for nearly 1600 years, the one that states, "But thou canst NOT baptize anyone under the age of X." Just as you would not, "But thou can murder those with dark skin."





Polycarp (69-155), a disciple of the Apostle John, was baptized as an infant.


Yup. Baptized in 69 AD - when most of the Apostles were still alive. The first known case of an infant being forbidden to be baptized comes 1500 years later.






.
 
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You insist you have no position on Baptism that concerns AGE..... and yet you rant ON AND ON AND ON AND ON - for nearly 2 years, in thread after thread, about how wrong, how heretical INFANT Baptism is. How it's forbidden to baptize those under an age you won't disclose. You insist you don't support the Baptist Dogma of Anti-Paedobaptism but then that's EXACTLY what you do - endlessly - parroting the Anabaptist tradition of Anti-Paedobaptism, a dogma exclusively about age.
There is no dogma that states "One must be baptized by the age of X." The issue of AGE that you are so extremely obsessed about is YOUR obsession.





You'll ignore this...... AGAIN:


As has been explained to you - MANY times - but always entirely ignored and evaded - is that 100% of Christians prior to those wackidoddle Anabaptists in the late 16th Century and maybe 90% since - reject your prohibition based on AGE because the Bible states no such prohibition. The Anabaptists just make it up. And they admitted they had not one Scripture to support their invented dogma (being honest.... something lacking in you). We'd point out there also is no dogmatic prohibition on Baptism of race, gender, skin color, shoe size, IQ, ethnicity, native language, education or hair color. You could just make it up (as the Anabaptist did with the AGE prohibition) but Scripture states no such thing. You could insist that Americans are forbidden to be baptized because nowhere does the Bible state "....and this includes Americans" and you feel not every case of baptism that happens to be recorded in the Bible is of a citizen of the USA (the same apologetic you use for your dogma of Anti-Paedobaptism) but you'd just be inventing a new dogma and have the same silly apologetic you yourself reject (and prove that you do every time you post on the internet). You'd actually have a stronger case if you invented a dogma forbidding US Citizens than you do forbidding those under a certain age you don't disclose.

BTW, I created an entire thread to share the basis of non-age restrictive baptism; you pretty much ignored it.


There is a commandment (one of the Big Ten) that STATES, "Thou shall not kill." Now, your position is that 15 Centuries later, a group could invent a new Dogma, "But people with dark skin are exempt from this (and we don't tell you how dark the skin must be before you are forbidden to apply this commandment to them)." And then kill Blacks. You'd use the same identical apologetic on that as you do with your Anti-Paedobaptism dogma: Nowhere does the Bible state, '.... and this includes those with dark skin' and there's not one example of a Black person being protected from death." But your late invented dogma would be silly. And wrong.








Yup. You've yet to present any Scripture that 100% of Christians never once noticed for nearly 1600 years, the one that states, "But thou canst NOT baptize anyone under the age of X." Just as you would not, "But thou can murder those with dark skin."








Yup. Baptized in 69 AD - when most of the Apostles were still alive. The first known case of an infant being forbidden to be baptized comes 1500 years later.






.
Read my post on the earliest comments about infant baptism.
 

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Entire households were baptized as we've brought up before in these types of threads. That would always include the servants and their children as well. Households weren't like today where there people used birth control to hold off on having children. They believed children were a blessing from God.



Polycarp (69-155), a disciple of the Apostle John, was baptized as an infant.
What document by Polycarp states this? Or is this a tradition that is stated many, many years after Polycarp was alive?
I have provided information that states no comment is made about infant baptism until 210-220 CE.
 

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What document by Polycarp states this? Or is this a tradition that is stated many, many years after Polycarp was alive?
I have provided information that states no comment is made about infant baptism until 210-220 CE.

I've provided documentation before in other threads:

Polycarp (69-155), a disciple of the Apostle John, was baptized as an infant. This enabled him to say at his martyrdom. "Eighty and six years have I served the Lord Christ" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 9: 3). Justin Martyr (100 - 166) of the next generation states about the year 150, "Many, both men and women, who have been Christ’s disciples since childhood, remain pure at the age of sixty or seventy years" (Apology 1: 15). Further, in his Dialog with Trypho the Jew, Justin Martyr states that Baptism is the circumcision of the New Testament.

Irenaeus (130 - 200), some 35 years later in 185, writes in Against Heresies II 22: 4 that Jesus "came to save all through means of Himself - all, I say, who through him are born again to God - infants and children, boys and youth, and old men."
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:
You insist you have no position on Baptism that concerns AGE..... and yet you rant ON AND ON AND ON AND ON - for nearly 2 years, in thread after thread, about how wrong, how heretical INFANT Baptism is. How it's forbidden to baptize those under an age you won't disclose. You insist you don't support the Baptist Dogma of Anti-Paedobaptism but then that's EXACTLY what you do - endlessly - parroting the Anabaptist tradition of Anti-Paedobaptism, a dogma exclusively about age. There is no dogma that states "One must be baptized by the age of X." The issue of AGE that you are so extremely obsessed about is YOUR obsession.





You'll ignore this...... AGAIN.... but AGAIN.....



As has been explained to you - MANY times - but always entirely ignored and evaded - is that 100% of Christians prior to those wackidoddle Anabaptists in the late 16th Century and maybe 90% since - reject your prohibition based on AGE because the Bible states no such prohibition. The Anabaptists just make it up. And they admitted they had not one Scripture to support their invented dogma (being honest.... something lacking in you). We'd point out there also is no dogmatic prohibition on Baptism of race, gender, skin color, shoe size, IQ, ethnicity, native language, education or hair color. You could just make it up (as the Anabaptist did with the AGE prohibition) but Scripture states no such thing. You could insist that Americans are forbidden to be baptized because nowhere does the Bible state "....and this includes Americans" and you feel not every case of baptism that happens to be recorded in the Bible is of a citizen of the USA (the same apologetic you use for your dogma of Anti-Paedobaptism) but you'd just be inventing a new dogma and have the same silly apologetic you yourself reject (and prove that you do every time you post on the internet). You'd actually have a stronger case if you invented a dogma forbidding US Citizens than you do forbidding those under a certain age you don't disclose.

BTW, I created an entire thread to share the basis of non-age restrictive baptism; you pretty much ignored it.


There is a commandment (one of the Big Ten) that STATES, "Thou shall not kill." Now, your position is that 15 Centuries later, a group could invent a new Dogma, "But people with dark skin are exempt from this (and we don't tell you how dark the skin must be before you are forbidden to apply this commandment to them)." And then kill Blacks. You'd use the same identical apologetic on that as you do with your Anti-Paedobaptism dogma: Nowhere does the Bible state, '.... and this includes those with dark skin' and there's not one example of a Black person being protected from death." But your late invented dogma would be silly. And wrong.



So far you have provided zero evidence from scripture of this dogmatic prohibition you keep parroting. Yup. You've yet to present any Scripture that 100% of Christians never once noticed for nearly 1600 years, the one that states, "But thou canst NOT baptize anyone under the age of X." Just as you would not, "But thou can murder those with dark skin."




.


Read my post on the earliest comments about infant baptism.


Nice evasion.....


Now, document for us the EARLIEST documentation for someone being denied baptism because they had not yet attained the age of X or were "too young" or "were an infant."


Quote the Scripture that states, "... but thou art forbidden to baptize any under an age which will not be disclosed." Where is this singular prohibition stated, the verse every Christian from at least 69 AD on never noticed until some Anabaptist wackidoodle in the late 16th Century invented the dogma you parrot but admitted he had NOT ONE SCRIPTURE that stated that he did.


And document the FIRST case where someone is forbidden baptism because of their age. (I can document cases where they were NOT forbidden from MANY, MANY centuries earlier than that).
 

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Nice evasion.....


Now, document for us the EARLIEST documentation for someone being denied baptism because they had not yet attained the age of X or were "too young" or "were an infant."


Quote the Scripture that states, "... but thou art forbidden to baptize any under an age which will not be disclosed." Where is this singular prohibition stated, the verse every Christian from at least 69 AD on never noticed until some Anabaptist wackidoodle in the late 16th Century invented the dogma you parrot but admitted he had NOT ONE SCRIPTURE that stated that he did.


And document the FIRST case where someone is forbidden baptism because of their age. (I can document cases where they were NOT forbidden from MANY, MANY centuries earlier than that).

I'd certainly like to know what year that documentation could be found! It's not in scripture at all.
 

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I've provided documentation before in other threads:

Polycarp (69-155), a disciple of the Apostle John, was baptized as an infant. This enabled him to say at his martyrdom. "Eighty and six years have I served the Lord Christ" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 9: 3). Justin Martyr (100 - 166) of the next generation states about the year 150, "Many, both men and women, who have been Christ’s disciples since childhood, remain pure at the age of sixty or seventy years" (Apology 1: 15). Further, in his Dialog with Trypho the Jew, Justin Martyr states that Baptism is the circumcision of the New Testament.

Irenaeus (130 - 200), some 35 years later in 185, writes in Against Heresies II 22: 4 that Jesus "came to save all through means of Himself - all, I say, who through him are born again to God - infants and children, boys and youth, and old men."

I know who the people are. Their extant writings are all a century or two (or more) removed from the Bible. It means the integrity of what they wrote is questionable.

Piper tells me that Tertullian is the first to actually mention infant baptism and that would have been in 220 CE. This means we are looking at 150 years of silence. Moreso, it seems Tertullian expresses infant baptism as being a questionable practice.
 

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Piper tells me that Tertullian is the first to actually mention infant baptism and that would have been in 220 CE.


Okay....


So you raised the HISTORY issue. You admit to INFANT Baptism (no dogmatic prohibition based on age; no Anti-Paedobaptism) from year 220 AD. So, document before the year 220 someone being denied baptism because they were under the age of X, were "too young", or "an infant." I think you are going to have to ignore this, too.... because I read a BAPTIST SEMINARY PROFESSOR write that the prohibition you parrot didn't exist before the Anabaptists, the EARLIEST you'd be able to document your prohibition being in place would be the late 16th or early 17th Century. And that's later than 220. By a lot.




.
 
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I know who the people are. Their extant writings are all a century or two (or more) removed from the Bible. It means the integrity of what they wrote is questionable.

Piper tells me that Tertullian is the first to actually mention infant baptism and that would have been in 220 CE. This means we are looking at 150 years of silence. Moreso, it seems Tertullian expresses infant baptism as being a questionable practice.

Do you understand WHY Tertullian discourages infant baptism? You would be surprised as to the truth! But I think that should be another thread.
 

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Nice evasion.....


Now, document for us the EARLIEST documentation for someone being denied baptism because they had not yet attained the age of X or were "too young" or "were an infant."


Quote the Scripture that states, "... but thou art forbidden to baptize any under an age which will not be disclosed." Where is this singular prohibition stated, the verse every Christian from at least 69 AD on never noticed until some Anabaptist wackidoodle in the late 16th Century invented the dogma you parrot but admitted he had NOT ONE SCRIPTURE that stated that he did.


And document the FIRST case where someone is forbidden baptism because of their age. (I can document cases where they were NOT forbidden from MANY, MANY centuries earlier than that).
I don't have any need to do so.
I can point to the Bible and see that in every instance recorded the person(s) being baptized were taught, responded in faith and were subsequently baptized. The process is obvious.
However, there is zero instances when an infant was baptized. Not one instance. You can read something into the word, household, if you wish, but no infant is ever actually mentioned.
 

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Okay....


So you raised the HISTORY issue. You admit to INFANT Baptism (no dogmatic prohibition based on age; no Anti-Paedobaptism) from year 220 AD. So, document before the year 220 someone being denied baptism because they were under the age of X, were "too young", or "an infant." I think you are going to have to ignore this, too.... because I read a BAPTIST SEMINARY PROFESSOR write that the prohibition you parrot didn't exist before the Anabaptists, the EARLIEST you'd be able to document your prohibition being in place would be the late 16th or early 17th Century. And that's later than 220. By a lot.




.
Again, this is a strawman argument. I never created the age of X. You did. You are arguing against yourself.
 

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Do you understand WHY Tertullian discourages infant baptism? You would be surprised as to the truth! But I think that should be another thread.
You are free to share.
 

Josiah

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I never created the age of X.


You CONSTANTLY rant about how INFANT baptism is wrong. INFANTS are not to be baptized. You may sincerely be unaware of this, but infancy is an AGE. An range of AGES.

You are CONSTANTLY ranting against baptism for those under a certain age (typically you define the age as "INFANT")..... you have for nearly 2 years.... in thread after thread.... on and on, constantly about how infants are not to be baptized. How absurd, how silly, how laughable to now argue that "infant" has nothing to do with age. IF your beef is with hair color or shoe size or gender - then don't rant against INFANT baptism.
 

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God's Lil Lamb
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I don't have any need to do so.
I can point to the Bible and see that in every instance recorded the person(s) being baptized were taught, responded in faith and were subsequently baptized. The process is obvious.
However, there is zero instances when an infant was baptized. Not one instance. You can read something into the word, household, if you wish, but no infant is ever actually mentioned.

Could you do me a favor and point out where Lydia's household were taught first? Scripture only tells us that Lydia was taught and the Lord opened her heart and then her household was baptized. It's Acts 16:14-15

Among those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, “If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.
 
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