"America" is now offensive to N and S America

Jason76

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Sadly that is the world we live in. Everything sadly is so PC!

But the world became PC cause of certain jerks who have picked on people for so long! :yawning:
 

tango

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Yes, it is very different.

Had you asked is it any different from the way Welsh and Scottish people call themselves "English" then you'd be closer except that Welshmen and Scots call themselves "English" only sarcastically while USA people call themselves "Americans" without intended irony.

People from the USA are Americans. Why is it a problem? Welsh and Scottish people are not English at all, not in any sense of the word. Welsh and Scottish people could call themselves British. They could call themselves Europeans (even if Brexit goes ahead the UK is still part of Europe geographically even if not politically).

It seems to me that insisting that the term "American" used to apply to someone from the USA must be changed is little more than yet another group trying to fiddle with language for their own ends.
 

tango

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But the world became PC cause of certain jerks who have picked on people for so long! :yawning:

Things became PC more because of the hard left trying to meddle in things that didn't concern them. Essentially much of it started when a bunch of white people took it upon themselves to decide what black people might find offensive. Because, you know, black people can't decide for themselves whether they are offended or not.

So we saw things like "baa baa black sheep" derided as racist, even as black parents taught it to their children. Then "black coffee" became "coffee without milk", the "blackboard" became the "chalkboard" and so on. Describing something as "black", even if it was black, suddenly became offensive in the eyes of the well-to-do white.

Addressing discrimination by discriminating the other way doesn't solve anything at all - it just demonstrates that double standards are acceptable.
 

Josiah

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"PC'ism" is a way Liberals change the issue from truth to feelings. Like kindergardeners yelling "that hurt my feelings" (never mind if it was true, correct)
 

tango

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"PC'ism" is a way Liberals change the issue from truth to feelings. Like kindergardeners yelling "that hurt my feelings" (never mind if it was true, correct)

It often seems very much like George Orwell's concept of thoughtcrime. Trying to figure out which words are OK and which words are offensive these days seems like a minefield. Curiously the people allegedly offended by whatever words are "triggers" today often seem to be the least likely to actually be offended. I remember a while back being among a group of friends and someone referred to visiting "the local Paki shop" (the term is sometimes used in the UK to describe a newsagent run by people from the Indian subcontinent), only to immediately apologise because one of the guys present was Pakistani. The Pakistani guy didn't show even the slightest sign of being offended (and the group was such that he'd have let us know if it did upset him) because he said he can tell the difference between someone using a common phrase as verbal shorthand and someone who actually has a problem with him because of his skin color. He could decide for himself whether he found the term "Paki shop" offensive and clearly to him the term wasn't even remotely offensive.
 

MoreCoffee

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People from the USA are Americans. Why is it a problem? Welsh and Scottish people are not English at all, not in any sense of the word. Welsh and Scottish people could call themselves British. They could call themselves Europeans (even if Brexit goes ahead the UK is still part of Europe geographically even if not politically).

It seems to me that insisting that the term "American" used to apply to someone from the USA must be changed is little more than yet another group trying to fiddle with language for their own ends.

People from wales are British but not English. Similarly people from Scotland are British but not English and people from England are English as well as British but it would be objectionable for English people to insist that their country be called Britain and that only English people are rightly called British. So people from the USA are American as are Canadians, Mexicans, Panamanians, Brazilians and so on.

If your intention is to point out that the non-specific term "American" is rightly applied to people from any land in North or South American including people from the USA (excluding Hawaii) then fine, but people from Hawaii are not Americans because Hawaii is not a part of North or South America. People from Hawaii are Hawaiians as well as being people from the USA just like anyone else from the USA is a person from the USA, or USAns, or USA-ers, or maybe Unitedstatesians when a specific designation unique to people from the USA is needed.
 
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tango

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People from wales are British but not English. Similarly people from Scotland are British but not English and people from England are English as well as British but it would be objectionable for English people to insist that their country be called Britain and that only English people are rightly called British. So people from the USA are American as are Canadians, Mexicans, Panamanians, Brazilians and so on.

It's nothing to do with being objectionable, England and Britain are two separate entities. Britain includes all of England and then some other bits.

If your intention is to point out that the non-specific term "American" is rightly applied to people from any land in North or South American including people from the USA (excluding Hawaii) then fine, but people from Hawaii are not Americans because Hawaii is not a part of North or South America. People from Hawaii are Hawaiians as well as being people from the USA just like anyone else from the USA is a person from the USA, or USAns, or USA-ers, or maybe Unitedstatesians when a specific designation unique to people from the USA is needed.

Or we could just leave things alone as they have been for however many years it was before the silly PC brigade felt the need to call everything offensive. A Canadian could call themselves an American but few choose to. A Brazilian could call themselves an American but few choose to. Ditto someone from Venezuela, Ecuador, Mexico, Colombia, you get the picture. If anything the people who hail from the USA are disadvantaged because the standard term for them is also a generic term for anyone from a land mass incorporating their nation and a whole lot more beside. It would be akin to allowing a Welshman to call himself Welsh or British as he preferred but not giving an Englishman any descriptor other than British to use.

But as is common in the topsy turvy world of political correctness, it's more important to fuss about names than anything else. I forget who it was who commented on the PC brigade and how "they change our name but still treat us the same".
 

Lamb

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If I say that someone is from Britain most everyone knows the general idea of what I mean. If I say the person is from England, again, they know what I mean. Do we need to start using GPS coordinates to not offend anyone?
 

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It's nothing to do with being objectionable, England and Britain are two separate entities. Britain includes all of England and then some other bits.

America contains all of the USA and then the rest of America which includes Canada (the largest country in America), Brazil (the third largest), Mexico, Argentina, and so on.
 

MoreCoffee

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Or we could just leave things alone as they have been for however many years it was before the silly PC brigade felt the need to call everything offensive. A Canadian could call themselves an American but few choose to. A Brazilian could call themselves an American but few choose to. Ditto someone from Venezuela, Ecuador, Mexico, Colombia, you get the picture. If anything the people who hail from the USA are disadvantaged because the standard term for them is also a generic term for anyone from a land mass incorporating their nation and a whole lot more beside. It would be akin to allowing a Welshman to call himself Welsh or British as he preferred but not giving an Englishman any descriptor other than British to use.
The name that Englishmen use for themselves is English when they want to be specific, British when they want to speak of the Island from which they come, and citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland when they want to be technically correct. People from the USA are Americans in the same sense in which Canadians, Brazilians and so forth are. When a person from the USA wants to be specific about their nationality they have no convenient short single word name for the USA so they are obligated - for brevity - to choose something less accurate than saying I am a Citizen of the United States of America. Most decide to use American and hope that everybody will accept that they mean a USA person. For the most part people do accept that nevertheless is it inaccurate imprecise language. So if someone says "American? where specifically in the Americas do you come from, what country is your homeland?" they'd need to give a more precise answer and would probably say "The USA" or "The United States of America" just as an Englishman might give "England" as his more precise answer to a similar question if he had said "I am British" as his first answer.
 

tango

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America contains all of the USA and then the rest of America which includes Canada (the largest country in America), Brazil (the third largest), Mexico, Argentina, and so on.

Yes, we've established that multiple times now.
 

tango

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The name that Englishmen use for themselves is English when they want to be specific, British when they want to speak of the Island from which they come, and citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland when they want to be technically correct. People from the USA are Americans in the same sense in which Canadians, Brazilians and so forth are. When a person from the USA wants to be specific about their nationality they have no convenient short single word name for the USA so they are obligated - for brevity - to choose something less accurate than saying I am a Citizen of the United States of America. Most decide to use American and hope that everybody will accept that they mean a USA person. For the most part people do accept that nevertheless is it inaccurate imprecise language. So if someone says "American? where specifically in the Americas do you come from, what country is your homeland?" they'd need to give a more precise answer and would probably say "The USA" or "The United States of America" just as an Englishman might give "England" as his more precise answer to a similar question if he had said "I am British" as his first answer.

Of course, because all Englishmen are the same.

Some English people identify as English, some as British, some as European. Any or all of those identifiers are geographically accurate. Some English people refuse to identify as European because they don't want to be associated with the EU even if they do live in an area that, geographically speaking, is part of Europe. Some identify as European first and British second. Some identify as British first and European second.

I have to say I have never heard any English person identify themselves as "a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

As you say a Canadian is technically an American but can also call themselves a Canadian. Someone from the USA is an American but has no term that doesn't technically also include people from a range of other nations. But since Canadians, Brazilians, Venezuelans etc don't typically call themselves "Americans", by the process of elimination someone who does say they are "American" is probably from the USA and not from Uruguay.

I still wish people could leave well alone and stop acting like a term in standard use for hundreds of years has suddenly become offensive.
 

MoreCoffee

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I still wish people could leave well alone and stop acting like a term in standard use for hundreds of years has suddenly become offensive.

People used to use "he/his/him in English as the pronoun for any human being but nowadays people are aware that women like to be referred to as she/hers/her and not as he/his/him. That is understandable. Similarly people with darker skin pigment prefer polite terms rather than the old terms that were common in USA English in the 1960s and before; words that are nowadays considered very offensive, so much so that I cannot type one that starts with an N here without risking a reprimand. So your complaint is not especially useful when the matter is about accuracy and precision of language. Your appeal appears to be along the lines of "if it was good enough for Jefferson Davis then it is good enough for us" and that, of course, is not the case. Even if you think it could be.
 

tango

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People used to use "he/his/him in English as the pronoun for any human being but nowadays people are aware that women like to be referred to as she/hers/her and not as he/his/him. That is understandable. Similarly people with darker skin pigment prefer polite terms rather than the old terms that were common in USA English in the 1960s and before; words that are nowadays considered very offensive, so much so that I cannot type one that starts with an N here without risking a reprimand. So your complaint is not especially useful when the matter is about accuracy and precision of language. Your appeal appears to be along the lines of "if it was good enough for Jefferson Davis then it is good enough for us" and that, of course, is not the case. Even if you think it could be.

Yes, you can pull all sorts of incomparable arguments out of a hat. I don't think the term "American" has ever been in widespread use as an insult though.

When talking about a woman in particular it has always made more sense to use feminine pronouns - if talking about a specific individual it makes no more sense to use "him" to refer to a woman than it does to use "her" to refer to a man. It used to be pretty much accepted that the use of one gender-specific pronoun in a generic context should be interpreted to include the other - even in a university context when things were already getting silly in a PC sense it was accepted that a sentence like "any student unhappy with his grade should appeal by..." should be taken to implicitly include "his or her" and was written that way for brevity. Sometimes gender-neutral language can work just as well, sometimes it becomes cumbersome.

I think I'll just refer to my original assertion that so many words are apparently so offensive to people these days maybe we should just revert to grunting and pointing.
 

MoreCoffee

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Yes, you can pull all sorts of incomparable arguments out of a hat. I don't think the term "American" has ever been in widespread use as an insult though.

You'd be surprised!

:smirk:
 

Jason76

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United Stat-iers? United Stat-ians? United Stat-i-ites?

What would amaze some - is that certain people hate the US so much - they spend spare time making fun of USA's name.
 

MoreCoffee

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United Stat-iers? United Stat-ians? United Stat-i-ites?

What would amaze some - is that certain people hate the US so much - they spend spare time making fun of USA's name.

Well ....

:smirk:
 

Josiah

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Some people need to get a life.
 

tango

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Some people need to get a life.

... and for many that life needs to be somewhere other than America, by the sounds of things :)
 

MoreCoffee

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Some people need to get a life.

Yeah, all that jabber about law and gospel as if they were theological opposites or something ;)
 
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