The Coming Civil War Over Abortion

Josiah

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As I understand it, there is a legal GAME going on here.

Turns out "person" is a LEGAL term, referring to one who has civil rights. It became such throughout the English world specifically because of slavery. The Courts did not want to get into the issue of biology and determine what is and is not specifically HUMAN. Just who would and would not be viewed as having CIVIL rights. By the time of the US Constitution, this was already well established, which is why the Constitiution says that salves are 3/5's of a PERSON. The Constitution never mentions the word "human." The issue not being biology but to whom the powerful chooses to give civil rights. This legal point continued well into the 1960's - not only in the USA but everywhere in the English world were there was institutional segregation and discrimination.

The Pro-Abortion crowed is very careful to continue this. They MUST, absolutely MUST, keep all discussion away from whether the unborn is HUMAN. ANY discussion of DNA and biology will be one they will loose and so they will not permit it. And thus, they will evade any discussion of "life" and "humanity". The issue is PERSON. "Person" is a CIVIL designation.... those with power legally determine who is and is not a full PERSON. No one denies that a secular state can withhold CIVIL rights and even that it can determine personhood. But that's not the issue, is it? Life is not a civil right. The government doens't give life.
 

tango

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Interesting point Josiah, although abortion is also very much alive and well in Europe where there's a specific notion of human rights. Obviously Europe has a different legal framework but "human rights" apparently don't extend to the unborn, presumably because they aren't counted as human.
 

Josiah

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Interesting point Josiah, although abortion is also very much alive and well in Europe where there's a specific notion of human rights. Obviously Europe has a different legal framework but "human rights" apparently don't extend to the unborn, presumably because they aren't counted as human.


As I understand it, that's partly the "problem" in the discussion of this topic....


The "Pro-Life" camp speaks of HUMAN rights - foundationally holding the unborn is HUMAN (a biological issue). The "Pro-Choice" side speaks of CIVIL rights and "personhood" holding that this is an issue of to whom the powerful chooses to give more power, more "rights." For the Pro-Choicers, the woman simply has more power, more civil "rights" than the unborn. For one side, it's a HUMAN rights issue, for the other it's a CIVIL rights issue.


As I understand it, the laws in Europe are generally far more conservative than in the USA. That our abortion laws are equaled only by North Korea and China. Communist East Europe once reflected the US model but most abandoned that 30 years ago and the abortion rate in those countries (once even higher than in the USA) have plummeted. Comparing the US to the UK is an apples-oranges thing in terms of the law. Legally, comparing the USA to North Korea is the better situation.




On another note...



1. IN PRACTICE, the "anti-abortion" crowd is slowly winning. The abortion rate is less than HALF what it once was in the USA. The actual number of abortions is back to the 1974 level (the first full year of Roe v. Wade). IN PRACTICE, abortion is simply being abandoned as the preferred mode of birth - control as other means are being more used and preferred. This is especailly true among teens where the abortion rate is less than one-third what it once was. More and more Americans are seeing abortion as unnecessary - there are much better (practically and morally, even medically and economically) options.


2. In MORALITY, the pro-life crowd is also making gains - but it's been way too slow. IMO, perhaps the basis here is simply MANY Americans can SEEN that unborn child... they simply understand the biology of it all MUCH better than 45 years ago. They simply understand that nothing happens to the DNA as the last cell of a toe exits the birth canal. They've SEEN those eyes.... those arms.... maybe the baby sucking its thumb... this is not some blob of meaningless cells until the last cell exits the birth canal. Frankly, the SILLINESS their hippie grandmother used is not seen as true anymore.





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Andrew

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As I understand it, that's partly the "problem" in the discussion of this topic....


The "Pro-Life" camp speaks of HUMAN rights - foundationally holding the unborn is HUMAN (a biological issue). The "Pro-Choice" side speaks of CIVIL rights and "personhood" holding that this is an issue of to whom the powerful chooses to give more power, more "rights." For the Pro-Choicers, the woman simply has more power, more civil "rights" than the unborn. For one side, it's a HUMAN rights issue, for the other it's a CIVIL rights issue.


As I understand it, the laws in Europe are generally far more conservative than in the USA. That our abortion laws are equaled only by North Korea and China. Communist East Europe once reflected the US model but most abandoned that 30 years ago and the abortion rate in those countries (once even higher than in the USA) have plummeted. Comparing the US to the UK is an apples-oranges thing in terms of the law. Legally, comparing the USA to North Korea is the better situation.




On another note...



1. IN PRACTICE, the "anti-abortion" crowd is slowly winning. The abortion rate is less than HALF what it once was in the USA. The actual number of abortions is back to the 1974 level (the first full year of Roe v. Wade). IN PRACTICE, abortion is simply being abandoned as the preferred mode of birth - control as other means are being more used and preferred. This is especailly true among teens where the abortion rate is less than one-third what it once was. More and more Americans are seeing abortion as unnecessary - there are much better (practically and morally, even medically and economically) options.


2. In MORALITY, the pro-life crowd is also making gains - but it's been way too slow. IMO, perhaps the basis here is simply MANY Americans can SEEN that unborn child... they simply understand the biology of it all MUCH better than 45 years ago. They simply understand that nothing happens to the DNA as the last cell of a toe exits the birth canal. They've SEEN those eyes.... those arms.... maybe the baby sucking its thumb... this is not some blob of meaningless cells until the last cell exits the birth canal. Frankly, the SILLINESS their hippie grandmother used is not seen as true anymore.





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Good point, the preacher in the video hands out pictures of a 9 week old baby in the womb and they looked surprised that it looks like a human, the heart beat begins at 3 weeks... how is this NOT a human??
 

tango

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As I understand it, that's partly the "problem" in the discussion of this topic....

The "Pro-Life" camp speaks of HUMAN rights - foundationally holding the unborn is HUMAN (a biological issue). The "Pro-Choice" side speaks of CIVIL rights and "personhood" holding that this is an issue of to whom the powerful chooses to give more power, more "rights." For the Pro-Choicers, the woman simply has more power, more civil "rights" than the unborn. For one side, it's a HUMAN rights issue, for the other it's a CIVIL rights issue.

That's an interesting concept, although the concept of which civil rights are greater seems like a dangerous game to play where the favored are allowed to end the life of the unfavored. If it's the unborn today what stops it being the bolshy teenager tomorrow, or the overly demanding boss, or the unreasonable neighbor?

As I understand it, the laws in Europe are generally far more conservative than in the USA. That our abortion laws are equaled only by North Korea and China. Communist East Europe once reflected the US model but most abandoned that 30 years ago and the abortion rate in those countries (once even higher than in the USA) have plummeted. Comparing the US to the UK is an apples-oranges thing in terms of the law. Legally, comparing the USA to North Korea is the better situation.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here. You said you thought Europe was more conservative but then compared the USA to North Korea?

I don't have particular familiarity with abortion laws in the UK but from what I understand it's not particularly difficult to get an abortion. A few years ago I backed into some information when trying to find some information at the place I worked, and stumbled (genuinely unintentionally) across an email sent from one member of staff to another. They had been having some kind of relationship (this was something of an open secret in the office) but she had presumably become pregnant as a result and terminated the pregnancy. The tone of the mail was very matter-of-fact, it gave the impression it was little more than taking half a day off work, aborting the fetus, and going back to work for the afternoon. I certainly don't think the UK is much like the US, where you hear of situations where people who want an abortion find the nearest clinic is 250 miles away or something.
 

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As I understand it, that's partly the "problem" in the discussion of this topic....


The "Pro-Life" camp speaks of HUMAN rights - foundationally holding the unborn is HUMAN (a biological issue). The "Pro-Choice" side speaks of CIVIL rights and "personhood" holding that this is an issue of to whom the powerful chooses to give more power, more "rights." For the Pro-Choicers, the woman simply has more power, more civil "rights" than the unborn. For one side, it's a HUMAN rights issue, for the other it's a CIVIL rights issue.


As I understand it, the laws in Europe are generally far more conservative than in the USA. That our abortion laws are equaled only by North Korea and China. Communist East Europe once reflected the US model but most abandoned that 30 years ago and the abortion rate in those countries (once even higher than in the USA) have plummeted. Comparing the US to the UK is an apples-oranges thing in terms of the law. Legally, comparing the USA to North Korea is the better situation.




On another note...



1. IN PRACTICE, the "anti-abortion" crowd is slowly winning. The abortion rate is less than HALF what it once was in the USA. The actual number of abortions is back to the 1974 level (the first full year of Roe v. Wade). IN PRACTICE, abortion is simply being abandoned as the preferred mode of birth - control as other means are being more used and preferred. This is especailly true among teens where the abortion rate is less than one-third what it once was. More and more Americans are seeing abortion as unnecessary - there are much better (practically and morally, even medically and economically) options.


2. In MORALITY, the pro-life crowd is also making gains - but it's been way too slow. IMO, perhaps the basis here is simply MANY Americans can SEEN that unborn child... they simply understand the biology of it all MUCH better than 45 years ago. They simply understand that nothing happens to the DNA as the last cell of a toe exits the birth canal. They've SEEN those eyes.... those arms.... maybe the baby sucking its thumb... this is not some blob of meaningless cells until the last cell exits the birth canal. Frankly, the SILLINESS their hippie grandmother used is not seen as true anymore..
I think science also plays a part in the above, Josiah; as our knowledge of life expands from where it was in 1973, it becomes increasingly harder and harder for the pro-abortion crowd to defend their side of the issue. After all, how can someone look at a sonogram picture of a growing human inside the womb and not understand that that is a human being, separate from the mother but not yet ready to live outside the womb just yet...
 

Josiah

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I think science also plays a part in the above, Josiah; as our knowledge of life expands from where it was in 1973, it becomes increasingly harder and harder for the pro-abortion crowd to defend their side of the issue. After all, how can someone look at a sonogram picture of a growing human inside the womb and not understand that that is a human being, separate from the mother but not yet ready to live outside the womb just yet...


I totally agree....


Thus the persistent demand of the Left to NEVER talk about life or biology but rather POWER - who has the POWER (absolute power, even to kill an innocent, defenseless human being!) The need to frame this ENTIRELY as the power/right that a woman has. All about power. All about CIVIL rights rather than HUMAN rights (by definition, civil rights are GRANTED to SOME by those with the power to do that; those under 18 can't vote because those with power haven't granted them that right).

IF the Left allows this to be a discussion about biology, life, DNA - they loose. And they know it. If they can keep this a WOMAN'S issue of rights, power, control - they win. And they know it.


BTW, in the USA, we've been through this all before. The very same thing. Slavery (a unique and new form of it) arose in "the New World." It was RACIAL. In the beginning, the whole apologetic was that Africans were not human, they were some other animal. Problem is, by the mid 1700's, that was undefensable. The medical community all agreed, the African slave was indeed human - biologically identical (they didn't have DNA back then to PROVE that, but they did all agree on that). So a new rationale was needed. They changed it to a civil rights issue, a POWER issue. One who owns another has POWER over them (whether or not they are human), the African slave is PROPERTY. Sound familiar? LEGALLY, they aren't a person (although biologically they are human). This was highly debated in the UK, US and elsewhere. The US Constitution finally defined a African Slave as 3/5th a PERSON (no mention of human, it was universally accepted the African was 100% HUMAN). A FREED slave was 100% a PERSON but the slave 3/5th a person. Sound familiar? Before the late cell of the toe exists the birth canal, we have a LESSER person than the woman but once freed from the womb, bingo, 100% person). PERSON is a legal term for one capable of civil rights - rights GIVEN to them by the powerful, as opposed to HUMAN rights given by God by virtue of their humanity.


People like POWER. Thus this all appeals to people (well, except those that become the victim).


As I noted, I think the pro-life, pro-human position IS making progress (however slow), and that's what is needed. Laws HELP control behavior but not always by much. We need a respect for life. We need to see that human life is NOT trumpted by a desire for absolute power. Want to have sex? Do it responsibily; don't respond to irresponsibility by killing the innocent. As my Dad noted, "people want to play like adults without being responsable like adults." Worse, they want others to pay the ultimate price for it.




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tango

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... and of course the fact that it can play so neatly into the feminist agenda as well, pitting the hapless (female) victims of circumstance against the overbearing (male) dominators who are trying to force them to have a baby.

Of course the notion that if what the mother wants is different from what the father wants he has no rights at all isn't even remotely imbalanced - if she wants him to be a father he has no say in the matter but if he wants her to be a mother he still has no say in the matter. The way it works is that the mother carries a pregnancy - whether we like it or not that's how it is. It's not like it's a secret that men don't get pregnant. From a purely biological perspective the man involved in a one-night stand can just walk away from any consequences and the woman doesn't necessarily even know who he was. Hence, basic self-protection alone should discourage her from sleeping with people she doesn't even know. It's really no different from arguing that the guy with a collection of original Rembrandt paintings has a greater interest in locking his house than the guy with nothing.
 

Josiah

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Baby born at 23 weeks, weighing 8 ounces.


I wish the liberal press would better convey the reality to the public, many of whom believe that until the last cell of the toe exists the birth canal, there's just an IT, a glob of meaningless cells that's not even a rat or cockroach, much less a human.


Last December, in San Diego, a baby was born at 23 weeks, weighing 8 oz. (HALF a pound). He is now 6 months old, over 5 pounds, home and doing perfectly well - no health issues at all other than he still has weight to put on.


23 weeks is later than most abortions, but LEGAL under federal US law and in most US states. In California, abortion is legal until that last toe exists the birth canal, at full term (usually 40 weeks).




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Andrew

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Baby born at 23 weeks, weighing 8 ounces.


I wish the liberal press would better convey the reality to the public, many of whom believe that until the last cell of the toe exists the birth canal, there's just an IT, a glob of meaningless cells that's not even a rat or cockroach, much less a human.


Last December, in San Diego, a baby was born at 23 weeks, weighing 8 oz. (HALF a pound). He is now 6 months old, over 5 pounds, home and doing perfectly well - no health issues at all other than he still has weight to put on.


23 weeks is later than most abortions, but LEGAL under federal US law and in most US states. In California, abortion is legal until that last toe exists the birth canal, at full term (usually 40 weeks).




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True! There are premature births that survive outside the womb and grow up to be well... human!
Too much dancing around science, I sure wish they would speak up on this matter!
Like if you google alternative genders the first that pops up is a fact check that THERE ARE ONLY TWO GENDERS! I wish they would cue this type of correction when typing in "are babies just a clump of cells?"... but you will only find others opinions and our biologists are nowhere in site.
 

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When they vacuum the dead baby out of the womb, it looks mangled like a bunch of cells :( They don't understand about fetal development because they have so much hate for the thing inside them that is inconveniencing their life.
 

Josiah

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Too much dancing around science, I sure wish they would speak up on this matter!


EXACTLY!


Where is the church? Why are SO many congregations and denominations AT BEST silent (some even have SUPPORTED abortion!). The church lead the way in getting rid of slavery and in civil rights but today, there is mostly SILENCE. The RCC and LCMS and LDS are bold.... a few misc. protestant congregations here and there... but mostly SILENCE.


Where are all the "rights" groups? After all, if the right to EXISTS doesn't exist, why does the right to be a woman or African-American or Gay? If the absolute RIGHT to kill an innocent, defensiveless person is DEFENDED, it's it the heighth of hypocrisy to argue "BUT the right to be a woman is critical?"


This has been law in the USA since 1973, for 46 years, longer than the average American has been alive. THE most liberal abortion law in the world. Most Americans seem to believe it's just THERE and nothing can be done about it. Well.... we had legal slavery - the most radical slavery law in the world - for 300 years, and we overturned that. We had institutional/legal segregation in American for 400 years and legally overturned that. We CAN wake up - and CHANGE, even something entrenched into our culture for centuries.


I agree.... why the silence?




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Andrew

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I agree with the Popes statement that abortion is no different than hiring a hitman from the mafia to "take care of someone"
 

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You can't really just take an opinion and present it as if it were fact, and then derive things from that. There are all sorts of opinions regarding exactly when life begins, ranging from conception to implantation to when the embryo has an identifiable blood supply of its own, to birth.

If life begins at conception then an IUD must logically be considered a murder weapon. Anything that inhibits the zygote from implanting in the uterus must be regarded as a murder weapon. These things are typically regarded as perfectly legitimate methods of contraception.

There certainly is a lot of contradiction in the current laws regarding the status of the unborn, and it appears to alternate between a person and a bunch of cells depending on the mother's opinion of whether it's wanted or not. That aspect makes no sense at all.

Personhood can't begin before about day 12, since that's when it becomes clear whether there's one individual or twins. In my opinion even that's way too early.
 

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Personhood can't begin before about day 12, since that's when it becomes clear whether there's one individual or twins. In my opinion even that's way too early.

There is nothing more fundamental than the person in human existence...

I am way more than half persuaded that it is your person that is the Image of God in which you were created...

More fundamental by far than your soul...

And it is your soul that is immortal...

Yet it is YOU who are creating your own soul's quality,
by your deeds upon this earth...
For you become what you do...

And John, 6 months in his mother Elizabeth's womb, recognized Jesus,
Who was just a few days in Mary's womb,
when Mary made haste and visited Elizabeth
through the Angel Gabriel's direction...


Arsenios
 

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And John, 6 months in his mother Elizabeth's womb, recognized Jesus,
Who was just a few days in Mary's womb,
when Mary made haste and visited Elizabeth
through the Angel Gabriel's direction...
I wouldn't base too much on what is obviously a pious legend. But even if true, it can only have been by the Holy Spirit, since there's no way it could have been explained by human senses. But the Holy Spirit can make the stones cry out. This shouldn't be used to determine normal human development.
 

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I wouldn't base too much on what is obviously a pious legend.

How do you think this "pious legend" made its way into the Holy Gospels?

But even if true, it can only have been by the Holy Spirit,
since there's no way it could have been explained by human senses.

Everything is by the Holy Spirit...

Even human senses...

And Elizabeth is recorded and being filled with the Holy Spirit...

But the Holy Spirit can make the stones cry out.

Yes...

This shouldn't be used to determine normal human development.

Saying there is not person until 12 days after conception has not been established as normal...

Nor can it be...

We can as well say that the person does not exist until fetal heartbeat...

Or sensory response to stimuli...

Or brain development...

Or until birth...

Or until after birth...

Or until consent of some kind or another...


You are touching the essence of what it is to be human...


Arsenios
 

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How do you think this "pious legend" made its way into the Holy Gospels?



Everything is by the Holy Spirit...

Even human senses...

And Elizabeth is recorded and being filled with the Holy Spirit...



Yes...



Saying there is not person until 12 days after conception has not been established as normal...

Nor can it be...

We can as well say that the person does not exist until fetal heartbeat...

Or sensory response to stimuli...

Or brain development...

Or until birth...

Or until after birth...

Or until consent of some kind or another...


You are touching the essence of what it is to be human...


Arsenios

That right. Most of those (at least the ones until birth) are held by reasonable people. However 14 days (I got the number wrong) is used in many countries including the US in the context of embryo research. This is a different context from abortion, but part of the reason for wide agreement is that "The 14th day is therefore notable, because the embryo is then individuated and can no longer become a twin," and thus it's not an individual yet, and thus the issue of whether they're a person doesn't seem implicated. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6127884/

Much of the discussion about abortion is conducted without proper knowledge of actual development, and indeed with ideologically tainted versions of biology. For more background see https://www.swarthmore.edu/news-events/when-does-personhood-begin

Even the uniformity of the religious tradition is being exaggerated in debates today.
 
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tango

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How do you think this "pious legend" made its way into the Holy Gospels?



Everything is by the Holy Spirit...

Even human senses...

And Elizabeth is recorded and being filled with the Holy Spirit...



Yes...



Saying there is not person until 12 days after conception has not been established as normal...

Nor can it be...

We can as well say that the person does not exist until fetal heartbeat...

Or sensory response to stimuli...

Or brain development...

Or until birth...

Or until after birth...

Or until consent of some kind or another...


You are touching the essence of what it is to be human...


Arsenios

The discussion about abortion must, pretty much by definition, touch the essence of what it is to be human, no?

If we believe that life begins at conception then logically an IUD must be considered a murder weapon. If life begins at implantation then abortion at any stage must be considered to be murder. If life begins at some other stage (there are a few theories as to when this might be) then abortion after that stage must be considered to be murder. If life is considered to start at any time before birth then abortion can only be justified in the same sense that justified homicide can be justified (e.g. shooting the person who represents a credible threat of bodily injury). Posing a credible threat to the mother's well-being (e.g. an ectopic pregnancy) would represent justification to terminate a pregnancy but "I decided I don't want to be a parent" or "I split up with the father and don't want his child any more" clearly wouldn't, any more than "I don't want this any more" is an excuse to kill a toddler.
 

Josiah

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Fundamentally, why I'm pro-life


As slavery was the huge moral/political issue for some 200 years in the USA, abortion has become such in our time.

I'm solidly pro-life. It is my top issue in voting and it is a moral position about which I'm passionate. There ARE areas were I "give" a bit (in case of rape, if continuing clearly threatens the physical life of the mother) but I'm pretty solidly pro-life. I "inherited" this, I suspect, from my parents great respect for life that they instilled in me, their great emphasis on protecting the weak, and from my Catholic upbringing. My parents - one a diehard "bleeding heart" liberal, the other a ditto head conservative - both are strongly pro life (although obviously my mom votes contrary to her convictions on this point). As a teen, I volunteered at an "abortion alternative" center (an amazing experience that had a profound impact on me) and I still contribute generously to some of these organizations.



My primary reasons are two:


1. Human rights. My sister (who has a Ph.D. in biology and does biological research as her vocation) has stressed to me that biologically, it is absurd to argue that the pre-born baby is not a human. She stresses that nothing happens to the DNA as the last bit of the toes exits the birth canal: in terms of species, what is AFTER the exit of the last toe is no different that what was before the crown of the baby's head began appearing outside that canal. While precise definitions of what is and is not "life" and is and is not "human" are not as precise as we'd all like, however we BIOLOGICALLY define such, birth has nothing to do with it. I believe that all humans are endowed with inalienable HUMAN rights simply as a function of they being HUMAN - and chief among these is life (the ONLY right that ultimately matters..... take that away and no other "right" matters at all, applies at all). Now, we can have discussions of self defense, just war, even capitol punishment (and I have related opinions there) but these are all extreme cases usually related to some guilt or physical threat presented by the one permitted to be murdered, and there seems to be consensus that HUMANS are being murdered in these cases. I think we purposely evade this by insisting that the unborn baby is not 100% a "PERSON" ( an argument taken hook, line and sinker from the pro-slavery position where Blacks were 2/3's a person) or when we people talk about the baby as a parasite or fully dependent - all that simply evades the issue that here is a HUMAN - the same species as we. IF we can deprive a whole class, an entire category of living HUMANS - regardless of their guilt or bad behavior or physical threat - deprive them without any due process - deprive them of the most important, most fundamental, most necessary of all HUMAN rights - life - then the most gross injustice has been made and all other innocent humans are treated and weakened.


2. Defending the Weak. The Bible says we are to speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, we are to defend those who cannot defend themselves, we are to be caretakers of the weak. Men - in particular - have often identified themselves strongly with this defender and providing role..... women - in particular - have seen motherhood as one of providing and defending role. We can see some of this even among animals. I reject the premise that those with political power may THEREFORE, as a FUNCTION of that power, trample on the rights, the humanity, the life of those less powerful or less independent simply as a function of their superior power to do so. One does not have some "right" to choose to murder simply because one has the political power to do it with impunity, to get away with it because other powerful ones will allow it. Remember what the powerful did in the perservation 0f slavery, in their "pro choice" political point that gave NO CHOICE WHATSOEVER to the one impacted: the Black man/woman. We must not fall to the morality that whatever those with sufficient power do to others is "moral" simply because they have the power to do it - and get away with it. Power does not equal moral. Indeed, it is a sad consequence of sin that the weak, the less-powerful are often trampled on by the more-powerful - and thus NEED our protection, our voice, our intervention. I realize this point makes a few women very uncomfortable.... since nearly the beginning of time, THEY were often the victims of this.... THEY were the weak, the helpless, the powerless and thus the victims of horrible things. Fortunately, very very recently, they have gained some power as the powerful (that's us white, middle class, property owning MEN) granted such. But IMO, because of that history, they ABOVE ALL, should be the MOST pro-life, the MOST sensitive to standing up for those with less power against those with more, they should be the LEAST 'pro-choice' (the powerful choose.... the powerless suffer). And indeed, I think women ARE a bit less "pro-choice" than men (although it's pretty close). We need laws, etc. to protect the weak from the strong, to permit civilization (so that it's not the animal "survival of the fittest", the prevailing of the more powerful over the less so).


Now, I realize...... there are enormous human, personal issues here. I do NOT minimize that. I realize discovering one is now the mother of a baby can be unplanned, unwelcomed - and a genuine crisis. And while most sex is consensual (and thus all know a baby can result, and by that consent, accept full responsibility), it's not always. And I realize that motherhood (before and after birth) has ENORMOUS implications - physically, socially, emotionally; indeed in every way possible - and that can be very difficult. Parenthood (mother and father) are perhaps the biggest and most difficult roles humans ever have. I don't gloss over that. I realize, too, that pregnancy and giving birth can be physically dangerous and are enormous physical efforts (and that - technically, that baby is a "parasite" - a LOT of parents will say that parasite continues for at least 20 years! Maybe a lot longer, lol, not to minimize the reality here). I'm not at all unmoved by those realities. And as I mentioned, I'm at least open to discussions when the baby is a real threat to the physical life of the other and perhaps also in cases of rape and incest (because there was no consent). But, the simple reality is: sex tends to eventually result in a baby - and all (over the age of 8 at least ) know that, all that is part of the responsibility to which we must rise. AND (most importantly), it means that we - as family and as society - need to "be there" for mothers (and fathers) struggling. IMO, we have far, far too much sense of abandoning parents. We need to "be there" as family, friends, community - emotionally, medically and physically (this is what motivated me so strongly in my years working with abortion alternative centers).

While I do not believe governments' role is religious or even primarily moralistic, it IS in part about protecting the weak, the defenseless, the voiceless (especially those who can't vote - meaning looking for human rather than civil or political rights). Just as I strongly rebuke all those years when the government of the USA lacked the guts, the civility to end slavery, so - for identical reasons - I rebuke the USA government today for lacking the guts and civility to end abortion-on-demand. This is the # 1 voting issue for me; I cannot and will not vote for any who is not clearly pro-life when they are in positions to impact that. And while I think it may take 200 years again (but hopefully not bloody war!), someday we will look upon this ugliness in the same way as we now look back upon slavery (or racism or sexism).


I DECRY the silence of the church, the silence of the majority on this....and wonder, where is the CRY that we had about slavery or even civil rights?

I DECRY that this has been allowed to be turned simply into a LEGAL issue of SUPERIOR POWER (a rationale taken from the pro-slavery movement). And worse, that it's WORKED.

LEGALLY, it's difficult. While laws and government polity certainly impacts behaviors, it cannot control it - especially where there is a great many who reject the moral basis of it. And somehow, the Law needs to deal with issues of WHEN this is human (some states have said at 6 weeks with the heart beating, others at 8 weeks.... some hold it's implantation which would allow for IUD's and the increasingly popular "morning after" - some foreign countries put it at 12 weeks, the first trimester). In SOME ways, I'd welcome any of this - at least it's an acknowledgement that humanity is not a civil right granted as the last cell exists the birth canal, BUT each has it's own subjective arbitraryness.

What excites me is - perhaps the DISCUSSION is back on the table (after a 40 year absence). NOW - will we frame that in terms of love, morality, caring, humanity, defending the weak? OR simply who has more power over another - to the extent of being able to KILL the innocent, the defenseless, the non-threatening? Will be frame this in terms of adult responsibility or being freed from such?



- Josiah




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