The undisclosed age of “X”

[MennoSota]

I think that since it is God who does all the heavy lifting in baptism the age of the baptised person, their ability to articulate faith and repentance and so forth would not be very significant unless we're considering an adult who refuses to confess faith and refuses to repent of sins but that would be an anomaly wouldn't it, very few candidates for adult baptism would deny faith in Jesus Christ and be firmly unrepentant. So if God is the one who commands baptism, gives grace in baptism, and works in the persons baptised why worry so much about infants being baptised? Unless baptism is more about the person baptised than about what God does in baptism.

You have hit the nail on the head.
If one assumes their is a magical "salvation" (some nebulous sort-of salvation) that happens when water is applied and words invoked as an incantation, then the recipient need not confess or do anything since the magic is being invoked upon them.
If one assumes there is no magic and the water symbolizes the Spirit's immersion of the confessing saint into the body of Christ, which happened at conversion, not with magic water, then the recipient would have confessed repentance and renewal before baptism took place.
It all comes down to whether God is the baptizer into Christ by His Holy Spirit or whether man is the baptizer into Christ by use of magic water.

 

[Josiah]

The Bible never teaches paedobaptism.

ANTI (against) PAEDO (people of an indefinite age) BAPTISM


DEFINITION:

Baptism is inappropriate and/or forbidden (or at least invalid) for those under a certain age.

NO PAEDO BAPTISMS.

"Paedo" - a very loose, indefinite, generic term for a younger person. It CAN include those under the age of 20 or so, but often means a pre-teen. It's a very loose, indefinite term that is entirely, wholly, completely about a persons AGE.






Here's how YOU put it, quoting the official source of your Confessions:

The last paragraph states an "age of accountability." That age is never defined, however.


Confession of Faith


Article 11. Baptism

We believe that the baptism of believers with water is a sign of their cleansing from sin. Baptism is also a pledge before the church of their covenant with God to walk in the way of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. Believers are baptized into Christ and his body by the Spirit, water, and blood.

Baptism is a testimony to God’s gift of the Holy Spirit and the continuing work of the Spirit in the lives of believers. Through the Spirit we repent and turn toward God in faith. The baptism of the Holy Spirit enables believers to walk in newness of life, to live in community with Christ and the church, to offer Christ’s healing and forgiveness to those in need, to witness boldly to the good news of Christ, and to hope in the sharing of Christ’s future glory.

Baptism by water is a sign that a person has repented, received forgiveness, renounced evil, and died to sin,1 through the grace of God in Christ Jesus. Thus cleansed, believers are incorporated into Christ’s body on earth, the church. Baptism by water is also a pledge to serve Christ and to minister as a member of his body according to the gifts given to each one. Jesus himself requested water baptism at the beginning of his ministry and sent his followers to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”2 Baptism is done in obedience to Jesus’ command and as a public commitment to identify with Jesus Christ, not only in his baptism by water, but in his life in the Spirit and in his death in suffering love.

The baptism of blood, or baptism of suffering, is the offering of one’s life, even to death. Jesus understood the giving of his life through the shedding of his blood for others as a baptism.3 He also spoke about his disciples’ suffering and death as a baptism.4 Those who accept water baptism commit themselves to follow Jesus in giving their lives for others, in loving their enemies, and in renouncing violence, even when it means their own suffering or death.

Christian baptism is for those who confess their sins, repent, accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, and commit themselves to follow Christ in obedience as members of his body, both giving and receiving care and counsel in the church.

Baptism is for those who are of the age of accountability and who freely request baptism on the basis of their response to Jesus Christ in faith.



.

YOU noted this age is "never defined."

An unknown number may be expressed by "X"

entirely silent doctrine

Yup. As YOU prove in thread after thread, over and over and over, you can't produce even one Scripture that teaches ANY of the Anabaptists inventions that you parrot. Not one Scripture for even one 0f them.


"Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they have attained the never-disclosed age." Anti-Peedobaptism

"Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they hath proven in chronological time BEFORE baptism that they hath chosen Jesus as their personal Savior." Credobaptism.

"Thou canst NOT baptize any unless their entire body is fully and entirely covered by water." Immersion Only.

If you had the verses that teach these dogmas, I'm confident you would have posted them by now.





Interesting, because your constant mantra, your constant demand, is that "We MUST scrap everything not taught by the words of Scripture and ALL tradition (including how Baptists understand thing and interpret things). Yet so far, you've not shared even one Scripture that states any of the Baptist dogmas on this and all you do is perfectly echo and parrot Baptist tradition on this. Hum.





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[MennoSota]

ANTI (against) PAEDO (people of an indefinite age) BAPTISM


DEFINITION:

Baptism is inappropriate and/or forbidden (or at least invalid) for those under a certain age.

NO PAEDO BAPTISMS.

"Paedo" - a very loose, indefinite, generic term for a younger person. It CAN include those under the age of 20 or so, but often means a pre-teen. It's a very loose, indefinite term that is entirely, wholly, completely about a persons AGE.






Here's how YOU put it, quoting the official source of your Confessions:







YOU noted this age is "never defined."

An unknown number may be expressed by "X"








Yup. As YOU prove in thread after thread, over and over and over, you can't produce even one Scripture that teaches ANY of the Anabaptists inventions that you parrot. Not one Scripture for even one 0f them.


"Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they have attained the never-disclosed age." Anti-Peedobaptism

"Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they hath proven in chronological time BEFORE baptism that they hath chosen Jesus as their personal Savior." Credobaptism.

"Thou canst NOT baptize any unless their entire body is fully and entirely covered by water." Immersion Only.

If you had the verses that teach these dogmas, I'm confident you would have posted them by now.





Interesting, because your constant mantra, your constant demand, is that "We MUST scrap everything not taught by the words of Scripture and ALL tradition (including how Baptists understand thing and interpret things). Yet so far, you've not shared even one Scripture that states any of the Baptist dogmas on this and all you do is perfectly echo and parrot Baptist tradition on this. Hum.





.

Every verse on baptism in the Bible supports the Baptist position.
Not one verse on baptism supports the paedobaptism position.
You make up your position from silence.

 

[Josiah]

ANTI (against) PAEDO (people of an indefinite age) BAPTISM


DEFINITION:

Baptism is inappropriate and/or forbidden (or at least invalid) for those under a certain age.

NO PAEDO BAPTISMS. Baptisms of those who are paedos are forbidden and/or rejected.

"Paedo" - a very loose, indefinite, generic term for a younger person. It CAN include those under the age of 20 or so, but often means a pre-teen. It's a very loose, indefinite term that is entirely, wholly, completely about a persons AGE.






Here's how YOU put it, quoting the official source of your Confessions:

The last paragraph states an "age of accountability." That age is never defined, however.


Confession of Faith


Article 11. Baptism

We believe that the baptism of believers with water is a sign of their cleansing from sin. Baptism is also a pledge before the church of their covenant with God to walk in the way of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. Believers are baptized into Christ and his body by the Spirit, water, and blood.

Baptism is a testimony to God’s gift of the Holy Spirit and the continuing work of the Spirit in the lives of believers. Through the Spirit we repent and turn toward God in faith. The baptism of the Holy Spirit enables believers to walk in newness of life, to live in community with Christ and the church, to offer Christ’s healing and forgiveness to those in need, to witness boldly to the good news of Christ, and to hope in the sharing of Christ’s future glory.

Baptism by water is a sign that a person has repented, received forgiveness, renounced evil, and died to sin,1 through the grace of God in Christ Jesus. Thus cleansed, believers are incorporated into Christ’s body on earth, the church. Baptism by water is also a pledge to serve Christ and to minister as a member of his body according to the gifts given to each one. Jesus himself requested water baptism at the beginning of his ministry and sent his followers to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”2 Baptism is done in obedience to Jesus’ command and as a public commitment to identify with Jesus Christ, not only in his baptism by water, but in his life in the Spirit and in his death in suffering love.

The baptism of blood, or baptism of suffering, is the offering of one’s life, even to death. Jesus understood the giving of his life through the shedding of his blood for others as a baptism.3 He also spoke about his disciples’ suffering and death as a baptism.4 Those who accept water baptism commit themselves to follow Jesus in giving their lives for others, in loving their enemies, and in renouncing violence, even when it means their own suffering or death.

Christian baptism is for those who confess their sins, repent, accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, and commit themselves to follow Christ in obedience as members of his body, both giving and receiving care and counsel in the church.

Baptism is for those who are of the age of accountability and who freely request baptism on the basis of their response to Jesus Christ in faith.



YOU noted this required min. age is "never defined."

An unknown number may be expressed by "X"




Yup. As YOU prove in thread after thread, over and over and over, you can't produce even one Scripture that teaches ANY of the Anabaptists inventions that you parrot. Not one Scripture for even one 0f them.


"Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they have attained the never-disclosed age." Anti-Peedobaptism

"Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they hath proven in chronological time BEFORE baptism that they hath chosen Jesus as their personal Savior." Credobaptism.

"Thou canst NOT baptize any unless their entire body is fully and entirely covered by water." Immersion Only.

If you had the verses that teach these dogmas, I'm confident you would have posted them by now.





Interesting, because your constant mantra, your constant demand, is that "We MUST scrap everything not taught by the words of Scripture and ALL tradition (including how Baptists understand thing and interpret things). Yet so far, you've not shared even one Scripture that states any of the Baptist dogmas on this and all you do is perfectly echo and parrot Baptist tradition on this. Hum.


.

Every verse on baptism in the Bible supports the Baptist position.

1. You yourself proved that Anti-Paedobaptism is a baptist dogma and one you support. This, you disagree with the opening post. atpollard has ignored your posts on this for obvious reasons.


2. No, you have yet to provide even one Scripture that states, "Baptism is for those who are of the AGE of accountability and who freely request baptism on the basis of their response to Jesus Christ in faith."


3. Nor have you yet provided even one Scripture that teaches any of the other Anabaptist/Baptist inventions on baptism:


"Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they hath proven in chronological time BEFORE baptism that they hath chosen Jesus as their personal Savior." Credobaptism.

"Thou canst NOT baptize any unless their entire body is fully and entirely covered by water." Immersion Only Baptism.


You make up your position from silence, just echoing the tradition of the radically synergistic Anabaptists who invented these dogmas you parrot.


Interesting, because your constant mantra, your constant demand, is that "We MUST scrap everything not taught by the words of Scripture and ALL tradition (including how Baptists understand thing and interpret things). Yet so far, you've not shared even one Scripture that states any of the Baptist dogmas on this and all you do is perfectly echo and parrot Baptist tradition on this. Hum.




.

 

[MennoSota]

1. You yourself proved that Anti-Paedobaptism is a baptist dogma and one you support. This, you disagree with the opening post. atpollard has ignored your posts on this for obvious reasons.


2. No, you have yet to provide even one Scripture that states, "Baptism is for those who are of the AGE of accountability and who freely request baptism on the basis of their response to Jesus Christ in faith."


3. Nor have you yet provided even one Scripture that teaches any of the other Anabaptist/Baptist inventions on baptism:


"Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they hath proven in chronological time BEFORE baptism that they hath chosen Jesus as their personal Savior." Credobaptism.

"Thou canst NOT baptize any unless their entire body is fully and entirely covered by water." Immersion Only Baptism.


You make up your position from silence, just echoing the tradition of the radically synergistic Anabaptists who invented these dogmas you parrot.


Interesting, because your constant mantra, your constant demand, is that "We MUST scrap everything not taught by the words of Scripture and ALL tradition (including how Baptists understand thing and interpret things). Yet so far, you've not shared even one Scripture that states any of the Baptist dogmas on this and all you do is perfectly echo and parrot Baptist tradition on this. Hum.




.

Still not one verse contradicting the baptism of confessing believers. Yet zero verses showing even one instance of a sinful, unbelieving infant being baptized.
The evidence is overwhelmingly clear...but... paedobaptism proponents hold on to empty, vacuous, space as their source.

 

[Josiah]

Still not one verse contradicting the baptism of confessing believers

It's not the task of those not teaching a dogma to prove it's wrong; it's the task of those teaching it to prove it's correct. This is your rubric, too. Nice attempt to dodge but.... Using your rubric, you'd have to prove from the words of Scripture that the Pope is Infallible is wrong, that the Assumption of Mary is wrong. If one stated, "There are 18 little purple people eaters hiding on Mars" it would be entirely YOUR responsibility to PROVE that wrong (good luck). Your rubric is silly, laughable, absurd and one you reject.


But to the point: You proved atpollard in the OP to be wrong.


Interesting, because your constant mantra, your constant demand, is that "We MUST scrap everything not taught by the words of Scripture and ALL tradition (including how Baptists understand thing and interpret things). Yet so far, you've not shared even one Scripture that states any of the Baptist dogmas on this and all you do is perfectly echo and parrot Baptist tradition on this. Hum.



.

 

[MennoSota]

It's not the task of those not teaching a dogma to prove it's wrong; it's the task of those teaching it to prove it's correct. This is your rubric, too. Nice attempt to dodge but.... Using your rubric, you'd have to prove from the words of Scripture that the Pope is Infallible is wrong, that the Assumption of Mary is wrong. If one stated, "There are 18 little purple people eaters hiding on Mars" it would be entirely YOUR responsibility to PROVE that wrong (good luck). Your rubric is silly, laughable, absurd and one you reject.


But to the point: You proved atpollard in the OP to be wrong.


Interesting, because your constant mantra, your constant demand, is that "We MUST scrap everything not taught by the words of Scripture and ALL tradition (including how Baptists understand thing and interpret things). Yet so far, you've not shared even one Scripture that states any of the Baptist dogmas on this and all you do is perfectly echo and parrot Baptist tradition on this. Hum.



.

You are teaching a dogma. Just because your dogma is entirely void of any biblical substance (there isn't anything there to support it) does not mean those who oppose the empty claim need to find a substantive piece of scripture to disclaim it. What an utterly foolish argument you make, Josiah.

 

[Albion]

Still not one verse contradicting the baptism of confessing believers.

And we believe that confessing believers ARE eligible for Baptism.

Your point here...is without a point. We agree with you about baptizing confessing believers!.

 

[MennoSota]

And we believe that confessing believers ARE eligible for Baptism.

Your point here...is without a point. We agree with you about baptizing confessing believers!.

Albion, please record an infant confessing their belief, then get back to me with the recording.

 

[Albion]

Albion, please record an infant confessing their belief, then get back to me with the recording.

I'll stick with the topic we were working on, thanks. We can change the subject after we reach some resolution on this one.

 

[MennoSota]

I'll stick with the topic we were working on, thanks. We can change the subject after we reach some resolution on this one.

I accept your admission that you have no biblical support for your position. If you had, you wouldn't falsely claim the subject has changed.
Lutherans, Catholics, EOC, etc, have a hard time nailing their own 95 thesis on the church door to question their churches teachings. It's easier to accept empty dogma than question it.

 

[Albion]

I accept your admission that you have no biblical support for your position.

I refer to our position and the biblical support for it...and this (!) is what you think makes a good response?????????????????

 

[MennoSota]

I refer to our position and the biblical support for it...and this (!) is what you think makes a good response?????????????????

You have provided ZERO support for paedobaptism other than a fantasy interpretation from silence in scripture. Forgive me for laughing.

 

[Albion]

For the most part, your posts here are meaningless--even when you're given every chance to come up with something of substance. So sure; I forgive you. :thumbsup:

It would be too cruel not to do so under the circumstances.

 

[MennoSota]

For the most part, your posts here are meaningless--even when you're given every chance to come up with something of substance. So sure; I forgive you.

It would be too cruel not to do so under the circumstances.

You see them as meaningless because you are tied by the umbilical cord to your church dogma, which is void of scriptural credence.

 

[Josiah]

Post 44


MennoSota has already proven that the dogma the opening post argues doesn't exist actually does: officially and formally and in Baptist Confessions. The opening poster is silent at this.


MennoSota has already proven he has NO Scripture at all that states ANY of the Baptist dogmas on this point. Not one. For even one. Nothing that states, "Thou canst NOT baptize any under the not disclosed as of X." "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they hath previously in chronological time proven that they hath chosen Jesus as their personal Savior." "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless the recipients entire body is wholly immersed in and under water."


MennoSota has demanded that we "scrap" ANYTHING and EVERYTHING not clearly taught in the words of Scripture and also any and all tradition (how a denomination understands or interprets things) ... yet he will not quote even one Scripture that teaches the dogma he does, and only parrots the tradition of his denomination on this point (albeit perfectly). He only does what he demands cannot be done.




.

 

[atpollard]

MennoSota has already proven that the dogma the opening post argues doesn't exist actually does: officially and formally and in Baptist Confessions. The opening poster is silent at this.

The opening poster is silent because he finds a visit to the dentist more pleasant and edifying than a conversation with you. Upon awakening to this realization, he has chosen to avoid you and your frequent, repetitive posts as much as possible.

Unfortunately for me, the question you raise here deserves to be answered. Thus I find myself in the unenviable position of making a response that will be ignored by the one raising the question, for the potential benefit of any silent onlookers.

First, I would point out the small correction that MennoSota posted from a Mennonite Confession and not a Baptist Confession. You can read a Baptist Confession in post #2 where I quoted the “Baptist Faith and Message 2000”, the current confession of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Second, the opening poster actually discussed the Mennonite Confession with MennoSota when he first posted it, bask on page 1. So while your feelings may be hurt that I have not chosen to argue with you about the subject, I have already discussed it with someone who is an expert in the Mennonite position on baptism ... a Mennonite rather than a Particular Baptist or a Lutheran. That you have chosen to ignore that conversation is not my fault or responsibility. That decision falls entirely on your shoulders.

Third, MennoSota has chosen to discuss the Mennonite position with you himself. This seems more than appropriate since he is a Mennonite and far better qualified to discuss Mennonite theology than a Particular Baptist. If you will not believe a Mennonite when they talk about what Mennonites believe, what hope is there for a non-Mennonite to convince you what Mennonites believe?

To the specific point. I have already commented (and apparently my comments been ignored) that the Mennonite mention of an “age of accountability” does come much closer to the alleged “minimum undisclosed age of X” argument than either the Church of God or Southern Baptist positions. However, close is still “no cigar”. Even a casual examination of the entire text offered from the Mennonite Confession will quickly reveal the function of the “age of accountability” and additional qualifications for baptism that combined demonstrate that the opposition to padeobaptism is not directly about age ... age is just an inevitable consequence of something more important to the Mennonite Church.

Note that immediately following the statement “Baptism is for those who are of the age of accountability”, the sentence continues with “and who freely request baptism on the basis of their response to Jesus Christ in faith.” Even if the Mennonites struck all references to an “age of accountability” from their confession, they could still not baptize anyone that had not “freely requested” baptism and responded “to Jesus Christ in faith.” No Mennonite Elder could claim in honesty that an infant had freely requested baptism or that they were convinced that the infant had demonstrated a real faith in Jesus Christ. So even without the clause that you are so quick to claim victory over, there would still be no INFANT baptisms.

Now, why would the Mennonites choose to wait so much longer to baptize than the Baptists or Church of God? The answer is not sinister, rather the answer is contained within their confession ... “Those who accept water baptism commit themselves to follow Jesus in giving their lives for others, in loving their enemies, and in renouncing violence, even when it means their own suffering or death.” Here we see that for a Mennonite, baptism is more than the start of a journey to follow Jesus. It is the mark of a mature Christian ready to put on the whole armor of God and to enter into the service of God and the struggle against the world.

A Lutheran infant might be ready to be baptized and welcomed into the Covenant Family.
A Baptist grade schooler might be ready to believe and repent and join the Body of Christ.
However, neither the Lutheran infant, nor the Baptist child are ready to take up the mantle of Christ and offer themselves as a martyr.
The Mennonites withhold baptism, right or wrong, until the Elders are convinced that a Christian has grown to the point that the “child” has become a Man of God, ready to take his place as an adult worker in the Body of Christ.

That is about the “undisclosed age of X” in a sense, but it is not really about anti-padeobaptism. It is about how long it takes a Christian to grow up and be ready to carry his Cross. There is a difference.

 

[Albion]

MennoSota has already proven he has NO Scripture at all that states ANY of the Baptist dogmas on this point. Not one.
.

This is true. All that has been produced, after all the requests and prodding, are examples of a handful of people in the New Testament who were among the thousands baptized in the early church. In no way do any of those examples instruct us that these are the only kinds of people (gender, age, ethnicity, etc.) who may be baptized, and in fact we know that others about whom we know almost nothing were also baptized (*whole households*).

 

[MennoSota]

This is true. All that has been produced, after all the requests and prodding, are examples of a handful of people in the New Testament who were among the thousands baptized in the early church. In no way do any of those examples instruct us that these are the only kinds of people (gender, age, ethnicity, etc.) who may be baptized, and in fact we know that others about whom we know almost nothing were also baptized (*whole households*).

LOL, You and Josiah simply lie with a bold face.
Pick all the verses on Christian baptism found in the Bible and you will see the same pattern. Person's believe, then they are baptized.
Do you need more verses, besides all the verses in scripture, before you will acknowledge that belief precedes baptism?
Honestly, you cling to an imaginary position based upon nothing except reading your own opinion into a couple verses where the word "household" is used and an entire doctrine of paedobaptism is created. Moreso, it is then asserted as fact and demanded for salvation of an infant.
Any person can see that neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever taught such a heresy, yet here you and Josiah are asserting the heresy anyway. You both seem to provide no argument other than "my denomination told me so and I unthinkingly believe them."
It's too bad Martin Luther failed to have the courage to question such a heinous doctrine as paedobaptism. It truly points thousands toward hell every year.

 

[Josiah]

I would point out the small correction that MennoSota posted from a Mennonite Confession and not a Baptist Confession. You can read a Baptist Confession in post #2 where I quoted the “Baptist Faith and Message 2000”, the current confession of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Your position is not, "The Southern Baptist Convention does not have a formal Confessional statement that speaks of age." You aren't even a Southern Baptist! Your insistence is that there is no age requirement connected to Baptism - period.

Your partner proved you wrong.

MennoSota has chosen to discuss the Mennonite position with you himself.

Actually, he chose to quote the official confessional position on this. And it states "AGE". And MennoSota felt compelled to note that this "AGE" is not defined. So age is a factor .... and that age is indefinite..... Baptism before that age is disallowed.... and that age is not defined.

True, you have only one partner supporting you in this issue, but he actually proved it wrong.

I have already commented that the Mennonite mention of an “age of accountability” does come much closer to the alleged “minimum undisclosed age of X” argument than either the Church of God or Southern Baptist positions.

Again, your position is that there is no undefined AGE issue, anywhere among anyone;. You didn't limit it to two demonations, neither of which either you or MennoSota belong to.

No, stating there is an undisclosed age mandate is not "coming close", it is contrary to your claim.

age is just an inevitable consequence

Whatever. YOUR insistence is that no one, anywhere states some age is required. YOUR insistence is there is no denomination, no church, no person who mandates something about age. You are wrong.

Now, you insisting, "BUT there's actually a REASON for the age mandate!" is fine, I never remotely implied otherwise, but you are just admitting your error.




.