The Flood: Historical event or Fable?

[Andrew]

I summons [MENTION=60]MoreCoffee[/MENTION] to testify on the record that the WORLDWIDE Flood of Noah is only a story and has no actual historical value... It's just a fable.
Is all of Genesis just a fable? I understand the Catholic Church does not care for a scientific approach, but to go outside of that simple and humble manner and yet call the worldwide deluge historically impossible well...is this really what the Word of God teaches? that the events within the text never happened but "hey these stories are great".? is all of Genesis just a huge parable?
I'm rather curious to know if we should view any biblical stories as "fables" and if this is in fact the theology of Catholics as I have been told and as MoreCoffee expressed in an earlier thread.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It was not earth covering. The Earth was not a waterworld for a year or so.

 

[Andrew]

It was not earth covering. The Earth was not a waterworld for a year or so.

So regardless of the Bible basically calling you a sceptic of it's own content, what explanation have you that the word wide deluge never occured?
Many cultures believe in a global deluge, many sceptics of the bible even believe in a world wide flood event, they also believe in many earth shattering events i.e. asteroid, ice ages and what not..
Please edify us to all of the mistakes found in the Story of Noah and why you cannot believe it.

"And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days" Genesis 7:17-24

Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior also refers to Noah
"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" Matthew 24:37-42

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]. The earth was not covered with water. With all the land covered under many feet of water. If you want to interpret something written in Genesis as meaning that every last bit of land on the planet was under fathoms of water then okay; I will pity you but you can do it if you like.

Does Genesis really say what you're claiming?

When Noah was six hundred years old, on the seventeenth day of the second month all the outlets of the vast body of water beneath the earth burst open, all the floodgates of the sky were opened, and rain fell on the earth for forty days and nights. On that same day Noah and his wife went into the boat with their three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and their wives. With them went every kind of animal, domestic and wild, large and small, and every kind of bird. A male and a female of each kind of living being went into the boat with Noah, as God had commanded. Then the LORD shut the door behind Noah. The flood continued for forty days, and the water became deep enough for the boat to float. The water became deeper, and the boat drifted on the surface. It became so deep that it covered the highest mountains; it went on rising until it was about twenty-five feet above the tops of the mountains.
Genesis 7:11-20

That would imply the oceans were mixed with fresh water that ran to the depth/height of Mount Everest plus 25 feet. Do you believe that?

 

[Andrew]

[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]. The earth was not covered with water. With all the land covered under many feet of water. If you want to interpret something written in Genesis as meaning that every last bit of land on the planet was under fathoms of water then okay; I will pity you but you can do it if you like.

Does Genesis really say what you're claiming?

When Noah was six hundred years old, on the seventeenth day of the second month all the outlets of the vast body of water beneath the earth burst open, all the floodgates of the sky were opened, and rain fell on the earth for forty days and nights. On that same day Noah and his wife went into the boat with their three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and their wives. With them went every kind of animal, domestic and wild, large and small, and every kind of bird. A male and a female of each kind of living being went into the boat with Noah, as God had commanded. Then the LORD shut the door behind Noah. The flood continued for forty days, and the water became deep enough for the boat to float. The water became deeper, and the boat drifted on the surface. It became so deep that it covered the highest mountains; it went on rising until it was about twenty-five feet above the tops of the mountains.
Genesis 7:11-20

That would imply the oceans were mixed with fresh water that ran to the depth/height of Mount Everest plus 25 feet. Do you believe that?

So your problem is with salt water mixing with fresh water and towering over the mountains?
Forget the math here in terms of days, 40 in biblical terms usually means or expresses "lengthy"..
The world was completely submerged at some time according to the bible, in which only Noah and his family and all the inhabitants of the ark survived.

 

[Andrew]

Do we at least agree that not all of Gods knowledge is written?
God doesn't necessarily have to explain his miracles, that would make it not so miraculous would it?
So let us assume that God resurrected all of those plants that were flooded over for a year, or we could assume that he brought up a new earth with new plants, we could assume that God sped up time and space and matter, who knows???
But to spin off and say it never happened could lead astray many, unless you were to say it was a parable or metaphor... do you believe that? is revelation a metaphor to you as well?

 

[Albion]

So regardless of the Bible basically calling you a sceptic of it's own content, what explanation have you that the word wide deluge never occured?

I've gotta agree with MC on this one. The flood was real, but the idea that it must have covered every last piece of turf on the planet is not called for. The world that the Hebrews--and all the peoples that they knew and knew about--was affected by a deluge the size and scope of which no one could remember experiencing before...but not involving lands they did not even know existed. The Biblical account is not impugned by this interpretation.



.

 

[Josiah]

To the question of this thread....


1. Does it matter? Is the Parable of the Good Samaritan or that of the Parable of the Prodigal Son "historical" or simply parabolic? Would it make any difference at all if it was historical?


2. I note that the Hebrew word often translated into English as "earth" (NOT Earth!) simply means dirt or ground. In English too, earth can simply mean dirt as in "the good earth of the farm." Translators of the Bible are usually careful not to capitolize the word so as to mean the planet. I DO at times think WE create "problems" by infusing the Bible with things not actually there. I hold that while the whole Bible is inerrant, the whole Bible is religious, teaching two things: Law and Gospel, as the Bible itself says, "These thing are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God, and that by believing, you may have life in His name." I think when we spend our time and energy proving the world is small, flat and square (because there are Scriptures that seem to say that), we should be spending our time and energy proclaiming Christ and lifting high the Cross. But many don't agree, I realize.


3. It seems to ME there are examples in the Bible where the text simply doesn't explain things that answer all and any questions; and I suspect where pieces of the puzzle simply aren't given. There is a POINT.... and that POINT is religious.... and that POINT gets made. If I as one with a Ph.D. in physics has some physics questions to ask, okay.... but the text is not mandated to answer them, physics isn't the point (Jesus is!)...


4. Frankly, I don't loose any sleep over this, either way.




.

 

[Andrew]

I've gotta agree with MC on this one. The flood was real, but the idea that it must have covered every last piece of turf on the planet is not called for. The world that the Hebrews--and all the peoples that they knew and knew about--was affected by a deluge the size and scope of which no one could remember experiencing before...but not involving lands they did not even know existed. The Biblical account is not impugned by this interpretation.



.

So creatures and people outside of the ark most likely survived since it did not cover the whole world?

 

[Andrew]

To the question of this thread....


1. Does it matter? Is the Parable of the Good Samaritan or that of the Parable of the Prodigal Son "historical" or simply parabolic? Would it make any difference at all if it was historical?


2. I note that the Hebrew word often translated into English as "earth" (NOT Earth!) simply means dirt or ground. In English too, earth can simply mean dirt as in "the good earth of the farm." Translators of the Bible are usually careful not to capitolize the word so as to mean the planet. I DO at times think WE create "problems" by infusing the Bible with things not actually there. I hold that while the whole Bible is inerrant, the whole Bible is religious, teaching two things: Law and Gospel, as the Bible itself says, "These thing are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God, and that by believing, you may have life in His name." I think when we spend our time and energy proving the world is small, flat and square (because there are Scriptures that seem to say that), we should be spending our time and energy proclaiming Christ and lifting high the Cross. But many don't agree, I realize.


3. It seems to ME there are examples in the Bible where the text simply doesn't explain things that answer all and any questions; and I suspect where pieces of the puzzle simply aren't given. There is a POINT.... and that POINT is religious.... and that POINT gets made. If I as one with a Ph.D. in physics has some physics questions to ask, okay.... but the text is not mandated to answer them, physics isn't the point (Jesus is!)...


4. Frankly, I don't loose any sleep over this, either way.




.

Im just saying if the flood account wasn't real then Noah wasn't real nor was his lineage, what does this say about Jesus existence?
Also, now all of a sudden "whole world" does not mean "whole world" anymore?
This is what I get from Albion and MC too... Yet in John 3:16 it's a different story?

 

[Albion]

So creatures and people outside of the ark most likely survived since it did not cover the whole world?

I would suppose so.

 

[Andrew]

I would suppose so.

Yet the Bible says only Noah and his family survived, no other people survived

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yet the Bible says only Noah and his family survived, no other people survived

The question is why do you want to make the whole world descend from 8 people and 2 animals of each "kind" that came out of a boat?

 

[Andrew]

The question is why do you want to make the whole world descend from 8 people and 2 animals of each "kind" that came out of a boat?

God wanted that, because the world was wicked, so he spared Noah (a righteous man) and his family, what are you getting at?

 

[Josiah]

Im just saying if the flood account wasn't real then Moses wasn't real nor was his lineage, what does this say about Jesus existence?
Also, now all of a sudden "whole world" does not mean "whole world" anymore?

In my translation, the term "whole world" never appears.

It says "earth" (little "e", dirt.... not capitol "E" the planet).


Yeah, "for God so loved the world" is not the same as "water covered dirt." And John 3:16 speaks to the subject of the Bible. "These thing are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and that by believing you may have life in His name." Jesus said He came "that we may have life."


I have no "issue" with those who believe there was a watery flood that covered Mt.Everest and everything on the planet... I'm just not sure that's what Genesis 7 and 8 are stating. Perhaps you are.

 

[Andrew]

In my translation, the term "whole world" never appears.

It says "earth" (little "e", dirt.... not capitol "E" the planet).


Yeah, "for God so loved the world" is not the same as "water covered dirt." And John 3:16 speaks to the subject of the Bible. "These thing are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and that by believing you may have life in His name." Jesus said He came "that we may have life."


I have no "issue" with those who believe there was a watery flood that covered Mt.Everest and everything on the planet... I'm just not sure that's what Genesis 7 and 8 are stating. Perhaps you are.

Noah sent two doves out to find land, the world was flooded

 

[Josiah]

Noah sent two doves out to find land, the world was flooded

I can't find a translation that says "world". It says "earth" (the word means dirt).

Again, you may choose to believe the entire planet was covered by water, but I'm not sure that's what the text is saying.

 

[Andrew]

I still don't see where parts of the earth were not covered and that some animals and people may have survived as Albion "would suppose so".

"And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." Genesis 7:19-23

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone, the world wide flood happened according to the bible..

 

[MoreCoffee]

God wanted that, because the world was wicked, so he spared Noah (a righteous man) and his family, what are you getting at?

The story says that but you want to treat the story as if it were true for the whole planet.

 

[Andrew]

I can't find a translation that says "world". It says "earth" (the word means dirt).

Again, you may choose to believe the entire planet was covered by water, but I'm not sure that's what the text is saying.

Wow, okay then we will use Earth (land)... All land, hills, mountains were covered and everything under the heavens (the earth) was destroyed by water save Noahs Ark..

Again... how do these text imply that some "land" was exposed and was not under water?

"And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark."
Genesis 7:19-23