Did Jesus quote the Apocrypha?

[RichWh1]

Just to add confusion, isn’t there evidence that Jesus might have generally quoted from the Septuagint?
I remember reading that the wording of Jesus’ OT quotes more closely matches the Septuagint than the Hebrew Old Testament (as a word for word quote).

I know that the writer of Hebrews quoted the Septuagint. Whether Jesus did or not, I’m not positive.

Jesus spoke Aramaic and might have quoted the LXX not positive though

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[NathanH83]

No! The only Greek we were talking about is Hellenistic Greek, the language spoken 3rd century B.C.

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew not Greek, except for the Septuagint translation

I told you already that Levites did not translate the Septuagint. Seventy two Hebrew scholars did and THEY added the Apocrypha The Levites did not add it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wouldn't the Apocryphal books have been added after the 72 translators had died?
Ptolemy II was around 250 BC. But the Maccabees lived around 160 BC. Surely you don't think these 72 scholars added Maccabees 100 years later. Wouldn't someone later have done the work?

 

[NathanH83]

Just to add confusion, isn’t there evidence that Jesus might have generally quoted from the Septuagint?
I remember reading that the wording of Jesus’ OT quotes more closely matches the Septuagint than the Hebrew Old Testament (as a word for word quote).

The King James Translators were convinced that the Apostles sided with the Septuagint. They said so in their note "From the Translators to the Reader."

And somehow their disciples, and their disciples, and their disciples became convinced that the "Apocryphal" books (as you call them) were a part of Holy Scripture.

 

[atpollard]

The King James Translators were convinced that the Apostles sided with the Septuagint. They said so in their note "From the Translators to the Reader."

And somehow their disciples, and their disciples, and their disciples became convinced that the "Apocryphal" books (as you call them) were a part of Holy Scripture.

I am not hating on the KJV, but at the time it was written there were only a FEW manuscripts available for them to work from. As a result, the KJV is subject to some errors due to “small sample size”. By the time the first of the 20th Century translations came around, thousands of manuscripts had been discovered and some dated back to the 4th century rather than Medieval copies like the KJV had to work with.

Which is just to say that it is interesting that the KJV agrees with what I heard, but it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Some people treat the KJV as if Jesus himself wrote every word and the Greek Manuscripts are translations from KJV English.

 

[NathanH83]

I am not hating on the KJV, but at the time it was written there were only a FEW manuscripts available for them to work from. As a result, the KJV is subject to some errors due to “small sample size”. By the time the first of the 20th Century translations came around, thousands of manuscripts had been discovered and some dated back to the 4th century rather than Medieval copies like the KJV had to work with.

Which is just to say that it is interesting that the KJV agrees with what I heard, but it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Some people treat the KJV as if Jesus himself wrote every word and the Greek Manuscripts are translations from KJV English.

Oh, I agree. The KJV has errors because its Old Testament was derived from the corrupt Hebrew Masoretic text. There are many instances where the KJV is more accurate than modern versions (like with unicorns), but it's not the original and should not be treated as such.

 

[RichWh1]

The most accurate word for word translation of the Bible is the NASB (New American Standard)

The best idea for idea translation is the NIV

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[NathanH83]

Jesus established the limits and content of Scripture as it existed when he lived ...

[Mat 23:35 NASB] 35 so that upon you may fall [the guilt of] all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
[Luk 11:51 NASB] 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house [of God;] yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'

... in the Hebrew Scriptures as they were collected in the time of Jesus (before Saint Jerome changed the order), the murder of Abel was the first murder in the first book of Hebrew Scripture (Genesis) and the murder of Zechariah was the last murder in the last book of Hebrew Scripture (Chronicles). Jesus was charging his generation with the guilt of all of the Holy Scriptures. Note that Maccabees was not included in either the Hebrew Bible or in Jesus’ list of murdered prophets of God.

[Luk 24:44 NASB] 44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."

... Jesus claimed that the prophecies about him written in the God breathed Scripture must be fulfilled. Maccabees is not part of the “Law of Moses”. Maccabees is not part of the “Prophets” (as shown above). Maccabees was not part of “Psalms”. The original structure of the Hebrew Bible divided the books into three sections, the first being the books written by Moses and commonly called “The Law”, the second being all of the Prophetic books and collectively called “the Prophets” and the third being a collection of books beginning with Psalms and ending with Chronicles that was commonly called either “the Histories” or “the Psalms” (after the first book in the section).

According to Jesus, there is nothing in Maccabees that is God breathed Scripture that must be fulfilled by him. Maccabees was included in the Apocrypha because it was of some historic value (just like the Histories of Josephus are) and the Apocrypha was NEVER held to be inspired, God breathed, infallible scripture for a very good reason.

Why did you lie about Jesus talking about the Zechariah in 2 Chronicles, when Jesus is clearly talking about a completely different Zechariah a whole 300 years later?
The Zechariah in 2 Chronicles 24:20 is the son of Jehoiada, and he lived during the reign of Joash King of Judah, around the year 800 BC.
But the Zechariah who Jesus is talking about in Matthew 23:35 is the son of Berechiah, who according to Zechariah 1:1 lived during the reign of Darius the King of Persia, around the time of about 500 BC.

So, why did you lie?

If you want to hold to the opinion that the Apocrypha doesn't belong in the Bible, then it's perfectly fine to have that opinion.
But do you really have to lie in order to support that opinion? Wouldn't it be more effective to base your belief on truth?

 

[Josiah]

We're on page 11....


So far, I've not seem any evidence that Jesus quoted from any Deutero book - as a book or as Scripture.


LOTS of talking all around the issue, but zero evidence. Not that is terribly significant, He didn't quote from most of the Books we all accept as canonical.

 

[atpollard]

Why did you lie about Jesus talking about the Zechariah in 2 Chronicles, when Jesus is clearly talking about a completely different Zechariah a whole 300 years later?
The Zechariah in 2 Chronicles 24:20 is the son of Jehoiada, and he lived during the reign of Joash King of Judah, around the year 800 BC.
But the Zechariah who Jesus is talking about in Matthew 23:35 is the son of Berechiah, who according to Zechariah 1:1 lived during the reign of Darius the King of Persia, around the time of about 500 BC.

So, why did you lie?

If you want to hold to the opinion that the Apocrypha doesn't belong in the Bible, then it's perfectly fine to have that opinion.
But do you really have to lie in order to support that opinion? Wouldn't it be more effective to base your belief on truth?

That makes TWICE you have called me a liar. You are rather free with that accusation.

[2Ch 24:17-21 NKJV] 17 Now after the death of Jehoiada the leaders of Judah came and bowed down to the king. And the king listened to them. 18 Therefore they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served wooden images and idols; and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem because of their trespass. 19 Yet He sent prophets to them, to bring them back to the LORD; and they testified against them, but they would not listen. 20 Then the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, who stood above the people, and said to them, "Thus says God: 'Why do you transgress the commandments of the LORD, so that you cannot prosper? Because you have forsaken the LORD, He also has forsaken you.' " 21 So they conspired against him, and at the command of the king they stoned him with stones in the court of the house of the LORD.

[Mat 23:35 NASB] 35 so that upon you may fall [the guilt of] all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
[Luk 11:51 NASB] 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house [of God;] yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'

"between the temple and the altar" [Mat 23:35] = "between the altar and the house" [Luke 11:51] = "in the court of the house of the LORD" [2 Chr 24:21]





[Exo 20:16 NKJV] 16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
[Deu 5:20 NKJV] 20 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

[Pro 6:16-19 NKJV] 16 These six [things] the LORD hates, Yes, seven [are] an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness [who] speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

[Pro 14:5 NKJV] 5 A faithful witness does not lie, But a false witness will utter lies.
[Pro 19:5, 9 NKJV] 5 A false witness will not go unpunished, And [he who] speaks lies will not escape. ... 9 A false witness will not go unpunished, And [he who] speaks lies shall perish.
[Pro 25:18 NKJV] 18 A man who bears false witness against his neighbor [Is like] a club, a sword, and a sharp arrow.

[Mat 15:19 NKJV] 19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.
[Mat 19:18 NKJV] 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,'
[Mar 10:19 NKJV] 19 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Do not defraud,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' "
[Luk 18:20 NKJV] 20 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' "
[Rom 13:9 NKJV] 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if [there is] any other commandment, are [all] summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

 

[NathanH83]

That makes TWICE you have called me a liar. You are rather free with that accusation.

[2Ch 24:17-21 NKJV] 17 Now after the death of Jehoiada the leaders of Judah came and bowed down to the king. And the king listened to them. 18 Therefore they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served wooden images and idols; and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem because of their trespass. 19 Yet He sent prophets to them, to bring them back to the LORD; and they testified against them, but they would not listen. 20 Then the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, who stood above the people, and said to them, "Thus says God: 'Why do you transgress the commandments of the LORD, so that you cannot prosper? Because you have forsaken the LORD, He also has forsaken you.' " 21 So they conspired against him, and at the command of the king they stoned him with stones in the court of the house of the LORD.

[Mat 23:35 NASB] 35 so that upon you may fall [the guilt of] all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
[Luk 11:51 NASB] 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house [of God;] yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'

"between the temple and the altar" [Mat 23:35] = "between the altar and the house" [Luke 11:51] = "in the court of the house of the LORD" [2 Chr 24:21]





[Exo 20:16 NKJV] 16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
[Deu 5:20 NKJV] 20 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

[Pro 6:16-19 NKJV] 16 These six [things] the LORD hates, Yes, seven [are] an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness [who] speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

[Pro 14:5 NKJV] 5 A faithful witness does not lie, But a false witness will utter lies.
[Pro 19:5, 9 NKJV] 5 A false witness will not go unpunished, And [he who] speaks lies will not escape. ... 9 A false witness will not go unpunished, And [he who] speaks lies shall perish.
[Pro 25:18 NKJV] 18 A man who bears false witness against his neighbor [Is like] a club, a sword, and a sharp arrow.

[Mat 15:19 NKJV] 19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.
[Mat 19:18 NKJV] 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,'
[Mar 10:19 NKJV] 19 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Do not defraud,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' "
[Luk 18:20 NKJV] 20 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' "
[Rom 13:9 NKJV] 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if [there is] any other commandment, are [all] summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

You need to read Zechariah 1:1.
It states that Zechariah son of Berechiah lived during the reign of Darius. That's about 500 BC, about a century after the Babylonian captivity.

That's about a whole 3 centuries after the Zechariah son of Jehoiada from 2 Chronocles. This Zechariah lived during the reign of Joash King of Judah, about 800 BC, about 2 centuries before the captivity.

These two Zechariahs lived about 3 centuries apart from one another.

Just because they were murdered in the same place doesn't put them in the same century.

 

[atpollard]

You need to read Zechariah 1:1.

I did, but found no reference to his murder, let alone his being killed "between the temple and the altar" ... but I did find 2 Chr 24:21, which does talk about the murder of a Zechariah happening "in the court of the house of the LORD".
If you had asked about it, we could have discussed it, but you chose to play the FALSE WITNESS and accuse me of deliberately lying. Now you choose to double down on your position.

 

[NathanH83]

I did, but found no reference to his murder, let alone his being killed "between the temple and the altar" ... but I did find 2 Chr 24:21, which does talk about the murder of a Zechariah happening "in the court of the house of the LORD".
If you had asked about it, we could have discussed it, but you chose to play the FALSE WITNESS and accuse me of deliberately lying. Now you choose to double down on your position.

Ok, well, Jesus clearly says that he's talking about the son of Berechiah, but you're talking about the son of Jehoiada. Do you have an explanation why you're mixing them up?
Zechariah 1:1 clearly says that this Zechariah is the son of Berechiah. Wouldn't the natural assumption be that Jesus is talking about this Zechariah? Do you have a legitimate reason to assume it's talking about someone else?