Water Baptism

[MennoSota]

No, not correct...

You are INITIATED BY GOD INTO CHRIST...

You are ENTERED INTO Salvation...

In THIS life, you can STILL turn from what you have received...

Eternal Life in Christ CAN be forsaken BY YOU but ONLY in THIS fallen life...

Baptism is ENTRY into Salvation...

It is NOT completion of Salvation...

Menno, in the olden days of yore, many Christians would defer their Baptism until the end of their lives so that they might obtain a better Salvation by having less time and opportunity to sin... To die immediately after Baptism was considered a guarantee of selection at the Second Coming of Christ... It is not a received teaching of the Church, but it was a belief that was held by many... Worthy of dismissal, yet the thing to be gleaned is their understanding of the power of Salvation in Baptism... The faithful have always understood Baptism to mean Salvation in Christ - It's BEGINNING...

Your Salvation begins when Christ Baptizes YOU INTO HIMSELF...
Through the hands of His Servant's hands in His Body, the Church...
At that time, Salvation is yours...

To abide within...
Or to depart from...


Arsenios

Alright, so saved by baptism doesn't actually mean SAVED. It just means an incomplete, partial, maybe salvation that is actually contingent upon good works and God actually accepting your humble heart.
Saved doesn't actually mean saved.
I find this teaching very convoluted and wonder if any common person would ever actually find it in their own Bible.
It seems to me that saved means what it says. Saved. As in, "I once was lost, but now am found. Was blind, but now I see" Saved. Actual removing from certain death unto life Saved.
But, alas, it seems that people are only "mostly saved." Where is Miracle Max?

 

[Arsenios]

Alright, so saved by baptism doesn't actually mean SAVED. It just means an incomplete, partial, maybe salvation that is actually contingent upon good works and God actually accepting your humble heart.
Saved doesn't actually mean saved.
I find this teaching very convoluted and wonder if any common person would ever actually find it in their own Bible.
It seems to me that saved means what it says. Saved. As in, "I once was lost, but now am found. Was blind, but now I see" Saved. Actual removing from certain death unto life Saved.
But, alas, it seems that people are only "mostly saved." Where is Miracle Max?

There is only One Who was perfectly Saved, Menno...

And He did not NEED Salvation...

Because even though He was man, He IS God...

AS man, He was not God...

AS God, He was also man...

Because God the Person became man the Person...

The SAME Person, both God and man...

Your charge of convolution is justified from a human perspective...

We simply say the Incarnation is a profound Mystery...

As is our participation in it though Baptism INTO Christ...

There is a confusion as well of Life Eternal in Christ, and the unending existence of our experiencing the Holy Spirit...

In this fallen life, we expect that experience to end...

The test in that ending determines our next step in Christ...

It will burn the dross that refines our mettle...

Or we will depart from God and the Grace of the absence of our experiencing His Grace...

This whole Christian enterprise is God's enterprise...

We simply live in denial of self to do the will of God in obedience to His Commandments...

We do not have it all figured out in some logical system...

"We hold the Mystery of the Faith in a purified conscience..." (Paul)

This is not a systematized logical understanding - (That is fallen human thinking.)

So yes, you are Saved in the Waters of Regeneration in the Spirit by Christ...

You are entered INTO Salvation IN Christ...

You are INITIATED INTO Christ...

It was only AFTER the Israelites entered the Promised Land that they found the Giants in opposition...

That was the Type...

Trials after Baptism is its fulfillment...

What you do matters, you see...

For or against your Salvation...

Baptism is not a free pass handed out by the Holy Spirit...

It is the Gift of God of Him to you and you to Him...

Nor is the experience of the Holy Spirit permanent...

This you already know...

We are already Saved and we are not yet Saved...

We are being saved throughout this life...

Acquiring the Holy Spirit as we are entering more and more deeply into our Lord...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

There is only One Who was perfectly Saved, Menno...

And He did not NEED Salvation...

Because even though He was man, He IS God...

AS man, He was not God...

AS God, He was also man...

Because God the Person became man the Person...

The SAME Person, both God and man...

Your charge of convolution is justified from a human perspective...

We simply say the Incarnation is a profound Mystery...

As is our participation in it though Baptism INTO Christ...

There is a confusion as well of Life Eternal in Christ, and the unending existence of our experiencing the Holy Spirit...

In this fallen life, we expect that experience to end...

The test in that ending determines our next step in Christ...

It will burn the dross that refines our mettle...

Or we will depart from God and the Grace of the absence of our experiencing His Grace...

This whole Christian enterprise is God's enterprise...

We simply live in denial of self to do the will of God in obedience to His Commandments...

We do not have it all figured out in some logical system...

"We hold the Mystery of the Faith in a purified conscience..." (Paul)

This is not a systematized logical understanding - (That is fallen human thinking.)

So yes, you are Saved in the Waters of Regeneration in the Spirit by Christ...

You are entered INTO Salvation IN Christ...

You are INITIATED INTO Christ...

It was only AFTER the Israelites entered the Promised Land that they found the Giants in opposition...

That was the Type...

Trials after Baptism is its fulfillment...

What you do matters, you see...

For or against your Salvation...

Baptism is not a free pass handed out by the Holy Spirit...

It is the Gift of God of Him to you and you to Him...

Nor is the experience of the Holy Spirit permanent...

This you already know...

We are already Saved and we are not yet Saved...

We are being saved throughout this life...

Acquiring the Holy Spirit as we are entering more and more deeply into our Lord...


Arsenios

All that to say that "saved" doesn't really mean saved. It means 'hopefully, if you do all the right things, you might be saved, if God is merciful."
So...baptism doesn't really save, it only is the first step in the door to potential salvation.

I must confess, I always thought saved means saved. But, clearly with you and MC, it only means potentially saved, but not for sure.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So you refuse to explain the multiplicity of salvation? Okay.

Three senses for Christian salvation is enough for the time being and salvation is tied to Christian baptism according to the scriptures. Other baptisms existed in times past and there were numerous types of Christian baptism in the scriptures of the old testament but the one baptism that really counts and about which all those others baptisms are types is the baptism of Jesus Christ himself in the waters of the Jordan river at the hands of saint John the Baptist. That baptism is the antitype, the reality to which the others pointed and through which the faithful fulfil all righteousness because in their own baptism the faithful are united to Jesus Christ the Lord in his baptism. And Christ's baptism is effective to save all who are in Christ.

The Lord spoke about abiding in him, he said -

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. These things I command you, so that you will love one another. (John 15:1-17)​

Baptism is the means by which the faithful become branches of the vine, that is Jesus Christ - saint Paul refers to this as grafting wild olive branches into the cultivated olive tree - so every person who abides in Christ bears holy fruit that comes from God's grace at work in them through obedience to the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ. No one is saved apart from abiding in Christ. That is the message of the Lord's words recorded by saint John in the gospel according to saint John. The three senses in which baptism saves are here to be seen by every reader - first salvation is accomplished by Christ in his earthly life, death, resurrection second salvation is received in the present time by union and communion with Christ through baptism and living in faith and obedience to the Lord's commandments and third salvation is finished at the first resurrection when soul and resurrection body are united as one in communion with Christ forever.

I have never read of a tripartite salvation in the Bible so I wonder who is holding the myth.

 

[MennoSota]

Three senses for Christian salvation is enough for the time being and salvation is tied to Christian baptism according to the scriptures. And Christ's baptism is effective to save all who are in Christ.
Baptism is the means by which the faithful become branches of the vine, that is Jesus Christ - saint Paul refers to this as grafting wild olive branches into the cultivated olive tree - so every person who abides in Christ bears holy fruit that comes from
The three senses in which baptism saves are here to be seen by every reader -
first salvation is accomplished by Christ in his earthly life, death, resurrection
second salvation is received in the present time by union and communion with Christ through baptism and living in faith and obedience to the Lord's commandments and
third salvation is finished at the first resurrection when soul and resurrection body are united as one in communion with Christ forever.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I honestly can say that I have never heard anyone try to make salvation into three parts along a timeline so that failure in any of the three leads to damnation. It's kind of sad actually. It seems loaded with burden.
I didn't find the verses you shared to be of any particular value to this discussion as I don't share your belief that the verses have to do with loss of salvation. I think the parables and analogies are meant for something else.
Ultimately, it seems that baptism doesn't really save in your trilogy of salvation. Grant it, it has the potential to save, but it also has the potential to be of no value at all.
It is clear that we will never agree on baptism or on what salvation is. I doubt that you will turn from your church teachings and I doubt I will turn from what scripture actually teaches.
Thank you for taking the time to express your trilogy of salvation, however. It clarified the differences we have.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I honestly can say that I have never heard anyone try to make salvation into three parts along a timeline so that failure in any of the three leads to damnation. It's kind of sad actually. It seems loaded with burden.

I do not quite understand what you think can be lost in the first sense of salvation because it is the finished work of Jesus Christ in his life and then on the cross and then in his resurrection each happening while he was personally present on Earth.

Nor do I understand what you think can be lost in the third sense which is the first resurrection from the dead in which the souls of the just are united with their resurrection bodies to dwell in Christ with God forever.

Perhaps you can explain what you mean because it looks as if you're thinking about something entirely unlike what was written in my posts.

The second sense of salvation is discussed by the Lord Jesus Christ in John 15:1-17 which I previously quoted and which you deleted from the quote of my post at the beginning of your post. Perhaps you deleted it because it was not something you wanted to discuss and I acknowledge that it is your decision not to discuss the holy scriptures and their teaching.

I didn't find the verses you shared to be of any particular value to this discussion as I don't share your belief that the verses have to do with loss of salvation. I think the parables and analogies are meant for something else.
Ultimately, it seems that baptism doesn't really save in your trilogy of salvation. Grant it, it has the potential to save, but it also has the potential to be of no value at all.
It is clear that we will never agree on baptism or on what salvation is. I doubt that you will turn from your church teachings and I doubt I will turn from what scripture actually teaches.
Thank you for taking the time to express your trilogy of salvation, however. It clarified the differences we have.

 

[MennoSota]

I do not quite understand what you think can be lost in the first sense of salvation because it is the finished work of Jesus Christ in his life and then on the cross and then in his resurrection each happening while he was personally present on Earth.

Nor do I understand what you think can be lost in the third sense which is the first resurrection from the dead in which the souls of the just are united with their resurrection bodies to dwell in Christ with God forever.

Perhaps you can explain what you mean because it looks as if you're thinking about something entirely unlike what was written in my posts.

The second sense of salvation is discussed by the Lord Jesus Christ in John 15:1-17 which I previously quoted and which you deleted from the quote of my post at the beginning of your post. Perhaps you deleted it because it was not something you wanted to discuss and I acknowledge that it is your decision not to discuss the holy scriptures and their teaching.

MC, either God saves entirely by grace or he doesn't.
I see no "sense" of three stages to salvation shared in scripture. Certainly John 15:1-17 is not referring to any stage in a process of salvation, even though you assert it references something to do with God saving.
However, this thread is about water baptism. You have asserted that water baptism saves a person, but you state that salvation is a three stage event. So baptism doesn't fully save, even though you say it does. Only if all three stages are met can a person be saved. Baptism is just one part involved in salvation, according to your assertion, at least as far as I can discern what you are saying. It is likely that I would have needed to be raised in Roman church tradition to possibly understand what you are saying. It is as foreign to my understanding as Buddhist teachings on reincarnation. I would need a complete paradigm shift about what I read in the Bible. I would have to toss out inductive Bible study and give my mind over to whatever the Roman church taught with no questions asked. I can't imagine that ever happening.
But, I once again thank you for expressing your trilogy salvation model. I can see we will never agree.

 

[Arsenios]

All that to say that "saved" doesn't really mean saved. It means 'hopefully, if you do all the right things, you might be saved, if God is merciful."
So...baptism doesn't really save, it only is the first step in the door to potential salvation.

I must confess, I always thought saved means saved. But, clearly with you and MC, it only means potentially saved, but not for sure.

God will judge the Living and the dead - eg Those Baptized into Christ and those not Baptized into Christ...

Many of the former will be saved...

Many of the latter will not...

The Dread Last Judgement is the final Salvation...

The stakes are Life or death...

This life determines for us our place in the Age to Come...

What we do matters, and we simply cannot turn away from God without repentance...

IF you turn from God in this life without repentance, you will have that eternal reward...

Salvation is real and palpable...

As are the Gifts...

We are judged by what we do with what we have...

We are surrounded by a great "Cloud of Witnesses"...

And we have every encouragement to turn to God and to remain turned to Him...

Peter was the only one of the Apostles who turned from God denying Christ to man...

And he repented and was restored...

The rest fled and scattered, but returned...

Needing no restoration...

There are sins, and there are sins...

Saved means Saved...

But Goliath was not found on the wandering side of the Jordan...

But only in the Promised Land...

And one man fighting Goliath...

Saved thousands who dared not...

What you do matters...

For your Salvation and for others' salvation...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The Gospel of Christ is:

"Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of the Heavens is at hand!"

For those who hear and take up their cross repenting...

Baptism is their ENTRY INTO the Kingdom of Heaven...


Arsenios

 

[atpollard]

The Gospel of Christ is:

"Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of the Heavens is at hand!"

For those who hear and take up their cross repenting...

Baptism is their ENTRY INTO the Kingdom of Heaven...


Arsenios

How is that “Good News”?
How is that different from the Law of Moses?

 

[MennoSota]

God will judge the Living and the dead - eg Those Baptized into Christ and those not Baptized into Christ...

Many of the former will be saved...

Many of the latter will not...

The Dread Last Judgement is the final Salvation...

The stakes are Life or death...

This life determines for us our place in the Age to Come...

What we do matters, and we simply cannot turn away from God without repentance...

IF you turn from God in this life without repentance, you will have that eternal reward...

Salvation is real and palpable...

As are the Gifts...

We are judged by what we do with what we have...

We are surrounded by a great "Cloud of Witnesses"...

And we have every encouragement to turn to God and to remain turned to Him...

Peter was the only one of the Apostles who turned from God denying Christ to man...

And he repented and was restored...

The rest fled and scattered, but returned...

Needing no restoration...

There are sins, and there are sins...

Saved means Saved...

But Goliath was not found on the wandering side of the Jordan...

But only in the Promised Land...

And one man fighting Goliath...

Saved thousands who dared not...

What you do matters...

For your Salvation and for others' salvation...


Arsenios

The Gospel of Christ is:

"Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of the Heavens is at hand!"

For those who hear and take up their cross repenting...

Baptism is their ENTRY INTO the Kingdom of Heaven...


Arsenios

Yet, baptism is not entry into heaven, as evidenced by your post previous to this.
It seems that you and MC speak with forked tongue so that saved doesn't really mean saved unless you save yourself.

 

[MoreCoffee]

MC, either God saves entirely by grace or he doesn't.
I see no "sense" of three stages to salvation shared in scripture.

What you see or do not see is not in dispute here but rather what the Lord Jesus Christ taught and what Christians believe as a consequence of Christ's teaching is. When you are ready to discuss what is written in holy scripture rather than dismiss it we can continue the discussion until then your protestations will avail you nothing. The Lord still said what he said. There is no room to compromise that fact away.

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he will take away. And each one that does bear fruit, he will cleanse, so that it may bring forth more fruit. You are clean now, because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. Just as the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so also are you unable, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me, and I in him, bears much fruit. For without me, you are able to do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me, he will be cast away, like a branch, and he will wither, and they will gather him and cast him into the fire, and he burns. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, then you may ask for whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. In this, my Father is glorified: that you should bring forth very much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my precepts, you shall abide in my love, just as I also have kept my Father’s precepts and I abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, so that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be fulfilled. This is my precept: that you love one another, just as I have loved you. No one has a greater love than this: that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends, if you do what I instruct you. I will no longer call you servants, for the servant does not know what his Lord is doing. But I have called you friends, because everything whatsoever that I have heard from my Father, I have made known to you. You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. And I have appointed you, so that you may go forth and bear fruit, and so that your fruit may last. Then whatever you have asked of the Father in my name, he shall give to you. This I command you: that you love one another. (John 15:1-17)​

When you are ready to discuss that passage we can continue.

In the meantime and as a help for others who may read this post I am including a comment from Albert Barnes, a Presbyterian and hence a Protestant and a Calvinist yet he, nevertheless, sees the meaning of the scripture and avoids the error in your denials, Mennosota.

Verse 9. As the Father hath loved me. The love of the Father toward his only-begotten Son is the highest affection of which we can conceive. Comp. Mt 3:17, 17:5. It is the love of God toward his coequal Son, who is like him in all things, who always pleased him, and who was willing to endure the greatest sacrifices and toils to accomplish his purpose of mercy. Yet this love is adduced to illustrate the tender affection which the Lord Jesus has for all his friends.

So have I loved you. Not to the same degree, for this was impossible, but with the same kind of love--deep, tender, unchanging; love prompting to self-denials, toils, and sacrifices to secure their welfare.

Continue ye. The reason which he gives for their doing this is the strength of the love which he had shown for them. His love was so great for them that he was about to lay down his life. This constitutes a strong reason why we should continue in his love.

• 1st. Because the love which he shows for us is unchanging.
• 2nd. It is the love of our best friend--love whose strength was expressed by toils, and groans, and blood.
• 3rd. As he is unchanging in the character and strength of his affection, so should we be. Thus only can we properly express our gratitude; thus only show that we are his true friends.
• 4th. Our happiness here and for ever depends altogether on our continuing in the love of Christ. We have no source of permanent joy but in that love.

In my love. In love to me. Thus it is expressed in the Greek in the next verse. The connection also demands that we understand it of our love to him, and not of his love to us. The latter cannot be the subject of a command; the former may. See also Lk 11:42, 1Jn 2:5 Jude 1:21

Verse 10. See Jn 14:23,24

Verse 11. These things. The discourse in this and the previous chapter. This discourse was designed to comfort them by the promise of the Holy Spirit and of eternal life, and to direct them in the discharge of their duty.

My joy. This expression probably denotes the happiness which Jesus had, and would continue to have, by their obedience, love, and fidelity. Their obedience was to him a source of joy. It was that which he sought and for which he had laboured. He now clearly taught them the path of duty, and encouraged them to persevere, notwithstanding he was about to leave them. If they obeyed him, it would continue to him to be a source of joy. Christ rejoices in the obedience of all his friends; and, though his happiness is not dependent on them, yet their fidelity is an object which he desires and in which he finds delight. The same sentiment is expressed in Jn 17:13.

Your joy might be full. That you might be delivered from your despondency and grief at my departure; that you might see the reason why I leave you, be comforted by the Holy Spirit, and be sustained in the arduous trials of your ministry. See 1Jn 1:4, 2Jn 1:12. This promise of the Saviour was abundantly fulfilled. The apostles with great frequency speak of the fullness of their joy--joy produced in just the manner promised by the Saviour-- by the presence of the Holy Spirit. And it showed his great love, that he promised such joy; his infinite knowledge, that, in the midst of their many trials and persecutions, he knew that they would possess it; and the glorious power and loveliness of his gospel, that it could impart such joy amid so many tribulations. See instances of this joy in Acts 13:52; Rev 14:17, 2Cor 2:3, Gal 5:22, 1Thes 1:6, 2:19, 20, 3:9, 1Pet 1:8, Rom 5:11 2Cor 7:4.​

Certainly John 15:1-17 is not referring to any stage in a process of salvation, even though you assert it references something to do with God saving.
However, this thread is about water baptism. You have asserted that water baptism saves a person, but you state that salvation is a three stage event. So baptism doesn't fully save, even though you say it does. Only if all three stages are met can a person be saved. Baptism is just one part involved in salvation, according to your assertion, at least as far as I can discern what you are saying. It is likely that I would have needed to be raised in Roman church tradition to possibly understand what you are saying. It is as foreign to my understanding as Buddhist teachings on reincarnation. I would need a complete paradigm shift about what I read in the Bible. I would have to toss out inductive Bible study and give my mind over to whatever the Roman church taught with no questions asked. I can't imagine that ever happening.
But, I once again thank you for expressing your trilogy salvation model. I can see we will never agree.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Mennosota is it not I alone who asserts that baptism saves the faithful. Saint Peter while inspired to write a letter by God in the Holy Spirit said it himself and I am echoing his teaching; namely, [18] For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, [19] in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, [20] because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. [21] Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [22] who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. (I Peter 3:18-22)

Other passages also teach this doctrine, that baptism saves, such as the passage in Romans previously quoted: [1] What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? [2] By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? [3] Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? [4] We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:1-4) and the words of the Lord Jesus Christ - [1] Now there was a man among the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. [2] He went to Jesus at night, and he said to him: “Rabbi, we know that you have arrived as a teacher from God. For no one would be able to accomplish these signs, which you accomplish, unless God were with him.” [3] Jesus responded and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one has been reborn anew, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.” [4] Nicodemus said to him: “How could a man be born when he is old? Surely, he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be reborn?” [5] Jesus responded: “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one has been reborn by water and the Holy Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God. [6] What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] You should not be amazed that I said to you: You must be born anew. [8] The Spirit inspires where he wills. And you hear his voice, but you do not know where he comes from, or where he is going. So it is with all who are born of the Spirit.” (John 3:1-8)

I have included the passages here because you have previously said that tapatalk does not allow you to hover a mouse pointer over the references and see the passage.

 

[MennoSota]

What you see or do not see is not in dispute here but rather what the Lord Jesus Christ taught and what Christians believe as a consequence of Christ's teaching is. When you are ready to discuss what is written in holy scripture rather than dismiss it we can continue the discussion until then your protestations will avail you nothing. The Lord still said what he said. There is no room to compromise that fact away.

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he will take away. And each one that does bear fruit, he will cleanse, so that it may bring forth more fruit. You are clean now, because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. Just as the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so also are you unable, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me, and I in him, bears much fruit. For without me, you are able to do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me, he will be cast away, like a branch, and he will wither, and they will gather him and cast him into the fire, and he burns. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, then you may ask for whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. In this, my Father is glorified: that you should bring forth very much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my precepts, you shall abide in my love, just as I also have kept my Father’s precepts and I abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, so that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be fulfilled. This is my precept: that you love one another, just as I have loved you. No one has a greater love than this: that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends, if you do what I instruct you. I will no longer call you servants, for the servant does not know what his Lord is doing. But I have called you friends, because everything whatsoever that I have heard from my Father, I have made known to you. You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. And I have appointed you, so that you may go forth and bear fruit, and so that your fruit may last. Then whatever you have asked of the Father in my name, he shall give to you. This I command you: that you love one another. (John 15:1-17)​

When you are ready to discuss that passage we can continue.

In the meantime and as a help for others who may read this post I am including a comment from Albert Barnes, a Presbyterian and hence a Protestant and a Calvinist yet he, nevertheless, sees the meaning of the scripture and avoids the error in your denials, Mennosota.

Verse 9. As the Father hath loved me. The love of the Father toward his only-begotten Son is the highest affection of which we can conceive. Comp. Mt 3:17, 17:5. It is the love of God toward his coequal Son, who is like him in all things, who always pleased him, and who was willing to endure the greatest sacrifices and toils to accomplish his purpose of mercy. Yet this love is adduced to illustrate the tender affection which the Lord Jesus has for all his friends.

So have I loved you. Not to the same degree, for this was impossible, but with the same kind of love--deep, tender, unchanging; love prompting to self-denials, toils, and sacrifices to secure their welfare.

Continue ye. The reason which he gives for their doing this is the strength of the love which he had shown for them. His love was so great for them that he was about to lay down his life. This constitutes a strong reason why we should continue in his love.

• 1st. Because the love which he shows for us is unchanging.
• 2nd. It is the love of our best friend--love whose strength was expressed by toils, and groans, and blood.
• 3rd. As he is unchanging in the character and strength of his affection, so should we be. Thus only can we properly express our gratitude; thus only show that we are his true friends.
• 4th. Our happiness here and for ever depends altogether on our continuing in the love of Christ. We have no source of permanent joy but in that love.

In my love. In love to me. Thus it is expressed in the Greek in the next verse. The connection also demands that we understand it of our love to him, and not of his love to us. The latter cannot be the subject of a command; the former may. See also Lk 11:42, 1Jn 2:5 Jude 1:21

Verse 10. See Jn 14:23,24

Verse 11. These things. The discourse in this and the previous chapter. This discourse was designed to comfort them by the promise of the Holy Spirit and of eternal life, and to direct them in the discharge of their duty.

My joy. This expression probably denotes the happiness which Jesus had, and would continue to have, by their obedience, love, and fidelity. Their obedience was to him a source of joy. It was that which he sought and for which he had laboured. He now clearly taught them the path of duty, and encouraged them to persevere, notwithstanding he was about to leave them. If they obeyed him, it would continue to him to be a source of joy. Christ rejoices in the obedience of all his friends; and, though his happiness is not dependent on them, yet their fidelity is an object which he desires and in which he finds delight. The same sentiment is expressed in Jn 17:13.

Your joy might be full. That you might be delivered from your despondency and grief at my departure; that you might see the reason why I leave you, be comforted by the Holy Spirit, and be sustained in the arduous trials of your ministry. See 1Jn 1:4, 2Jn 1:12. This promise of the Saviour was abundantly fulfilled. The apostles with great frequency speak of the fullness of their joy--joy produced in just the manner promised by the Saviour-- by the presence of the Holy Spirit. And it showed his great love, that he promised such joy; his infinite knowledge, that, in the midst of their many trials and persecutions, he knew that they would possess it; and the glorious power and loveliness of his gospel, that it could impart such joy amid so many tribulations. See instances of this joy in Acts 13:52; Rev 14:17, 2Cor 2:3, Gal 5:22, 1Thes 1:6, 2:19, 20, 3:9, 1Pet 1:8, Rom 5:11 2Cor 7:4.​

There is nothing about water baptism in that passage. It has nothing to do with this topic. Start up a thread so we can observe what Jesus is telling his disciples as he celebrates the Passover dinner with them.

 

[MennoSota]

Mennosota is it not I alone who asserts that baptism saves the faithful. Saint Peter while inspired to write a letter by God in the Holy Spirit said it himself and I am echoing his teaching; namely, [18] For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, [19] in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, [20] because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. [21] Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [22] who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. (I Peter 3:18-22)

Other passages also teach this doctrine, that baptism saves, such as the passage in Romans previously quoted: [1] What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? [2] By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? [3] Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? [4] We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:1-4) and the words of the Lord Jesus Christ - [1] Now there was a man among the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. [2] He went to Jesus at night, and he said to him: “Rabbi, we know that you have arrived as a teacher from God. For no one would be able to accomplish these signs, which you accomplish, unless God were with him.” [3] Jesus responded and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one has been reborn anew, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.” [4] Nicodemus said to him: “How could a man be born when he is old? Surely, he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be reborn?” [5] Jesus responded: “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one has been reborn by water and the Holy Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God. [6] What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] You should not be amazed that I said to you: You must be born anew. [8] The Spirit inspires where he wills. And you hear his voice, but you do not know where he comes from, or where he is going. So it is with all who are born of the Spirit.” (John 3:1-8)

I have included the passages here because you have previously said that tapatalk does not allow you to hover a mouse pointer over then references and see the passage.

Yet, you say it doesn't really save. You have two other requirements before salvation. It seems that baptism only potentially saves in your trilogy of salvation.
Your teaching is odd. Saved doesn't actually mean saved. It just means it's one part of a multi-step process where any failure along the way means damnation. What a terrible burden to be Roman catholic.

 

[MoreCoffee]

There is nothing about water baptism in that passage. It has nothing to do with this topic. Start up a thread so we can observe what Jesus is telling his disciples as he celebrates the Passover dinner with them.

I anticipated the diversion in your post and wrote another to return to the topic. Click here

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yet, you say it doesn't really save.

Click here and here. You might also click here because this topic has already been discussed and perhaps being reminded of what was written then will help now.

You have two other requirements before salvation. It seems that baptism only potentially saves in your trilogy of salvation.
Your teaching is odd. Saved doesn't actually mean saved. It just means it's one part of a multi-step process where any failure along the way means damnation. What a terrible burden to be Roman catholic.

 

[MennoSota]

Click here and here. You might also click here because this topic has already been discussed and perhaps being reminded of what was written then will help now.

Click here, MC.
https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/what-is-baptism-and-does-it-save

 

[MoreCoffee]

Click here, MC.
https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/what-is-baptism-and-does-it-save

I think it is better to stick with links to posts in this thread, as I did in my post. There's something deceitful about the approach you take to these scriptures Mennosota. When you are ready to discuss the passages and stop the obfuscation we can continue. I noticed the "like" from atpollard, which is a little disappointing for a post that is such a slight of hand diversion off site for no good reason.

 

[atpollard]

I think it is better to stick with links to posts in this thread, as I did in my post. There's something deceitful about the approach you take to these scriptures Mennosota. When you are ready to discuss the passages and stop the obfuscation we can continue. I noticed the "like" from atpollard, which is a little disappointing for a post that is such a slight of hand diversion off site for no good reason.

I read the article by Piper and I liked it.
The whole exchange between you and Menno appears to be as unproductive as my exchanges with Josiah.