Jesus Christ, died for all

MennoSota

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I don't think I shall explain to you again what I explained to you in the past. That you didn't learn from the first encounter is no reason for me to repeat it for you. Go back and read the posts I've written in answer to your extreme Calvinism. Besides it is not me that you need to teach you. Read the holy scriptures because they teach you a better way than the terrible way that Calvinism offers. And please read with context. No more of this sloganeering with snippets drawn from old testament prophets misread and misapplied to suit this wicked Calvinist agenda. You could start with the four gospels because in them you can, if you want to, find what Jesus has to say about human dignity, responsibility, and compassion as well as duty, obligation, and obedience. It isn't all divine decrees and impersonal predestination. Repent and believe the gospel because the kingdom of God is at hand.
You realize that I have always quoted scripture, not church leaders. Can you say the same?
MC, scripture teaches what I have shared. You can certainly present how my interpretation of scripture is incorrect, but you often don't. Instead you fall on a bigots crutch to blame a man who wrote 500 years ago for the reason I view God as fully Sovereign and fully Love.
If you cannot or will not go to God and His word, then you are merely a clanging cymbal. There is no sharp sword that pierces the heart because you fail to share God's word.
Let us throw away denominations and church affiliation. Let us know the God of Creation who gave his word to us. Let us listen to God's word. Cast off the papacy. Cast off John Calvin. Cast them all aside and let us listen to God. That is more than enough.
Observe, question, interpret, apply
 

Josiah

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You realize that I have always quoted scripture

Friend, you have never quoted any Scripture that states "Jesus did not die for all but for ONLY SOME."


We have quoted Scripture after Scripture that specifically states that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for the whole world. You even admitted that "two or three" say that (actually, MANY do) but made it OBVIOUS that you join with every other radical Calvinists for over 400 years in your inability to find even one verse that states, "Actually, that's wrong; Jesus did not die for all but for ONLY SOME."


You are parroting the questions and theories of a few radical later-day Calvinists (who invented this view) but never Scripture (at least none that remotely teach this horrible invention). I find it.... ironic.... you rebuke MC for doing what you have SO consistently, so obviously done in this thread. At least MC has some history and tradition behind him, you don't.




.
 

MoreCoffee

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.... ironic.... you rebuke MC ...

I am sure that Menno's post is not a rebuke. It's just another chapter in the crazy theology that he wrote about. The theology that makes John the Baptist into a member of his denomination. It's also the theology of a denomination that wants to proclaim TULIP for the win but that the original proponents of TULIP reject as non-reformed erroneous heresy. His posts are just sour grapes.

:smirk:
 

MennoSota

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Friend, you have never quoted any Scripture that states "Jesus did not die for all but for ONLY SOME."


We have quoted Scripture after Scripture that specifically states that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for the whole world. You even admitted that "two or three" say that (actually, MANY do) but made it OBVIOUS that you join with every other radical Calvinists for over 400 years in your inability to find even one verse that states, "Actually, that's wrong; Jesus did not die for all but for ONLY SOME."


You are parroting the questions and theories of a few radical later-day Calvinists (who invented this view) but never Scripture (at least none that remotely teach this horrible invention). I find it.... ironic.... you rebuke MC for doing what you have SO consistently, so obviously done in this thread. At least MC has some history and tradition behind him, you don't.




.
Josiah, it is not my fault that you reject the scripture I have shared regarding Jesus dying for his sheep.
In the end it comes down to your interpretation, which requires Jesus blood be spilt with no effectiveness for justification and my interpretation which requires Jesus blood be spilt with total effectiveness and justification for all the sheep.
It is God who justifies. It is God's gift of faith that enables us to believe that God has justified us. Thus justification by faith.
I cannot look upon God and see his shed blood spilled needlessly and ineffectively for those whom God knows will perish.
Explain how God purchases all humans and then throws away, into hell, what He has purchased by his blood. Please explain this. Show your scripture for how God does this. I don't see God ever purchasing something and then throwing it away. But, perhaps I have missed something that you easily see.
If God is not willing that any should perish, why then do so many perish? Why does God refuse to give what he purchased faith to believe?
I can explain this and I can show scripture. Indeed, I have provided much scripture.
Now, it's your turn.
Explain how God purchases all humans and then throws away, into hell, what He has purchased by his blood. Please explain this. Show your scripture for how God does this. I don't see God ever purchasing something and then throwing it away.
 

MennoSota

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1 Peter 2:4-10,21-25
As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.” So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.”

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation,
a people for his own possession,
that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Did God purchase and possess all humanity? Let God's word, through Peter, help you understand. (See the scripture provided above.)
 

YourTruthGod

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No way does God save unbelievers.

THEY, have to, believe, first, before, God will save them.

That scripture does NOT say God saves unbelievers.

God saves people that believe and repent of their sins.

People saying God saves unbelievers go against many scriptures where GOD SAYS TO BELIEVE.

But some seem to want this to read: "But the spiritually dead unregerate enemies of God, being rich in power and glory, even though they are dead, make themselves alive by adequately obeying God, making God irrelevant, making grace and mercy unnecessary, making Jesus moot."
God does NOT save unbelievers.
Read and believe the scriptures!

Easter SHOULD be a time to affirm that Christ is the Savior, that God gives to us life - an abundant life here and an eternal life hereafter.

EVERY DAY should be about God and knowing Him and not false doctrines.

Good point. And the Bible states that without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God, so what does the person do without faith that pleases God?

.

The Bible says without faith it is impossible to please Him-----AND HE TELLS US TO HAVE FAITH---but you then preach a made up doctrine about GOD SAVING US BEFORE WE HAVE FAITH!!!
 

atpollard

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That is about circumcision.
So everything is about circumcision, the only sin is being uncircumcised and Christ died to save our foreskins???? :yawning:
Whatever. :rolleyes:
 

YourTruthGod

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So everything is about circumcision, the only sin is being uncircumcised and Christ died to save our foreskins???? :yawning:
Whatever. :rolleyes:

All the scriptures that Luther and Calvin taught and made false doctrines about were because they didn't understand when Paul was teaching about the Jews and the old law concerning the purification works. That is the works that no longer saved, not no longer of obedience! The Jews are the ones God foreknew, not that people are foreknown and predestined.
 

MoreCoffee

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So everything is about circumcision, the only sin is being uncircumcised and Christ died to save our foreskins???? :yawning:
Whatever. :rolleyes:

A very fatuous post.
 

MoreCoffee

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1 Peter 2:4-10,21-25
Why is your reference missing verses 11-20?
God told me to heed what the holy scriptures say and not to distort them as some are in the habit of doing.
So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good. As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture:
Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.
So the honour is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone, and A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence.
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul. Keep your conduct among the gentiles honourable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation. Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honour everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the emperor. Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. (I Peter 2:1-25)​

Did God purchase and possess all humanity? Let God's word, through Peter, help you understand. (See the scripture provided above.)

The chapter doesn't say a word about God purchasing anyone. Do you read these passages before you post them? Or do you just randomly post verses and ignore the content of the passage?

Did you think your reference was to First Peter chapter one?
Peter, Apostle of Jesus Christ, to the newly-arrived elect of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, in accord with the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, with the obedience and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: May grace and peace be multiplied for you. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy has regenerated us into a living hope, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead: unto an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance, which is reserved for you in heaven. By the power of God, you are guarded through faith for a salvation which is ready to be revealed in the end time. In this, you should exult, if now, for a brief time, it is necessary to be made sorrowful by various trials, so that the testing of your faith, which is much more precious than gold tested by fire, may be found in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. For though you have not seen him, you love him. In him also, though you do not see him, you now believe. And in believing, you shall exult with an inexpressible and glorious joy, returning with the goal of your faith, the salvation of souls. About this salvation, the prophets inquired and diligently searched, those who prophesied about the future grace in you, inquiring as to what type of condition was signified to them by the Spirit of Christ, when foretelling those sufferings that are in Christ, as well as the subsequent glories. To them, it was revealed that they were ministering, not for themselves, but for you those things which have now been announced to you through those who have preached the Gospel to you, through the Holy Spirit, who was sent down from heaven to the One upon whom the Angels desire to gaze. For this reason, gird the waist of your mind, be sober, and hope perfectly in the grace that is offered to you in the revelation of Jesus Christ. Be like sons of obedience, not conforming to the desires of your former ignorance, but in accord with him who has called you: the Holy One. And in every behaviour, you yourself must be holy, for it is written: “You shall be holy, for I am Holy.” And if you invoke as Father him who, without showing favouritism to persons, judges according to each one’s work, then act in fear during the time of your sojourning here. For you know that it was not with corruptible gold or silver that you were redeemed away from your useless behaviour in the traditions of your fathers, but it was with the precious blood of Christ, an immaculate and undefiled lamb, foreknown, certainly, before the foundation of the world, and made manifest in these latter times for your sake. Through him, you have been faithful to God, who raised him up from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope would be in God. So chastise your souls with the obedience of charity, in fraternal love, and love one another from a simple heart, attentively. For you have been born again, not from corruptible seed, but from what is incorruptible, from the Word of God, living and remaining for all eternity. For all flesh is like the grass and all its glory is like the flower of the grass. The grass withers and its flower falls away. But the Word of the Lord endures for eternity. And this is the Word that has been evangelised to you. (I Peter 1:1-25)​

In that chapter you can find the use of the phrase "redeemed ... with the precious blood of Christ" but even in that chapter there's no "purchased" except perhaps in some poorly executed modern bible translation.

And the answer to your question is yes, Christ did redeem the whole world with his precious blood.
 

MennoSota

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And the answer to your question is yes, Christ did redeem the whole world with his precious blood.
Okay. According to you, all humanity is redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus.
Do you recognize what that means or do you make this statement flippantly, without realizing what you are saying?
Redeem:
to*buy*or*pay*off;*clear*by payment:to*redeem*a*mortgage.

to*buy*back,*as*after*a*tax*sale*or a*mortgage*foreclosure.

to*recover*(something*pledged or*mortgaged)*by*payment*or other*satisfaction:to*redeem*a*pawned*watch.

to*exchange*(bonds,*tradingstamps,*etc.)*for*money*orgoods.

to*convert*(paper*money)*intospecie.

to*discharge*or*fulfill*(a*pledge,promise,*etc.).
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/redeem

Redemption*[N]*[T]

the purchase back of something that had been lost, by the payment of a ransom. The Greek word so rendered is*apolutrosis*, a word occurring nine times in Scripture, and always with the idea of a ransom or price paid, i.e., redemption by a lutron (see*Matthew 20:28*;*Mark 10:45*). There are instances in the LXX. Version of the Old Testament of the use of*lutron*in man's relation to man (*Leviticus 19:20*;*25:51*;*Exodus 21:30*;*Numbers 35:31*Numbers 35:32*;*Isaiah 45:13*;*Proverbs 6:35), and in the same sense of man's relation to God (*Numbers 3:49*;*18:15*).

There are many passages in the New Testament which represent Christ's sufferings under the idea of a ransom or price, and the result thereby secured is a purchase or redemption (CompareActs 20:28*;*1 Corinthians 6:19*1 Corinthians 6:20*;Galatians 3:13*;*Galatians 4:4*Galatians 4:5*;Ephesians 1:7*;*Colossians 1:14*;*1 Timothy 2:5*1 Timothy 2:6*;*Titus 2:14*;*Hebrews 9:12*;*1 Peter 1:18*1 Peter 1:19*;*Revelation 5:9*). The idea running through all these texts, however various their reference, is that of payment made for our redemption. The debt against us is not viewed as simply cancelled, but is fully paid. Christ's blood or life, which he surrendered for them, is the "ransom" by which the deliverance of his people from the servitude of sin and from its penal consequences is secured. It is the plain doctrine of Scripture that "Christ saves us neither by the mere exercise of power, nor by his doctrine, nor by his example, nor by the moral influence which he exerted, nor by any subjective influence on his people, whether natural or mystical, but as a satisfaction to divine justice, as an expiation for sin, and as a ransom from the curse and authority of the law, thus reconciling us to God by making it consistent with his perfection to exercise mercy toward sinners" (Hodge's Systematic Theology).
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/redemption/
(Look, no John Calvin)
 

MoreCoffee

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Okay. According to you, all humanity is redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus.

You started well but it was all downhill after that.
 

MennoSota

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You started well but it was all downhill after that.
Here is what you said. Do you deny writing it?

And the answer to your question is yes, Christ did redeem the whole world with his precious blood.
You incapacity to be honest is showing, MC. You have resorted to diversion as your modis operandi. This is a sure sign your argument has failed.
 

atpollard

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Friend, you have never quoted any Scripture that states "Jesus did not die for all but for ONLY SOME."


We have quoted Scripture after Scripture that specifically states that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for the whole world. You even admitted that "two or three" say that (actually, MANY do) but made it OBVIOUS that you join with every other radical Calvinists for over 400 years in your inability to find even one verse that states, "Actually, that's wrong; Jesus did not die for all but for ONLY SOME."


You are parroting the questions and theories of a few radical later-day Calvinists (who invented this view) but never Scripture (at least none that remotely teach this horrible invention). I find it.... ironic.... you rebuke MC for doing what you have SO consistently, so obviously done in this thread. At least MC has some history and tradition behind him, you don't.

.

[Jhn 10:11, 14-18 NASB] 11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. ... 14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock [with] one shepherd. 17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

The Good Shepherd DIED for HIS SHEEP ... not for the goats and not for the wolves in sheep’s clothing.
If Christ died for all without exception, then why are all without exception not saved?
 

Jason76

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The Lord, Jesus Christ, died for all, yet not all receive the benefit of His death, his death benefits only those to whom the merit of Christ's passion is communicated.

Well, in my Christian Universalist beliefs, I certainly believe he died for all - but I believe all will eventually be saved - though, maybe not in this life cycle. Anyway, the alternative simply causes too much of a problem with the Predestination idea. I mean, Presbyterians have it right in stating that stuff - sort of. However, how can we reconcile that with other verses seemingly saying "Jesus died for all."?
 

Josiah

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Well, in my Christian Universalist beliefs, I certainly believe he died for all - but I believe all will eventually be saved - though, maybe not in this life cycle. Anyway, the alternative simply causes too much of a problem with the Predestination idea. I mean, Presbyterians have it right in stating that stuff - sort of. However, how can we reconcile that with other verses seemingly saying "Jesus died for all."?


Calvinism.... and its creation of universalism.... can't.


Both simply eliminate faith from any role in justification. Radical Calvinism largely ended up in universalism because it repudiates Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide by effectively eliminating the last aspect, by insisting that IF Christ died for them, then they are justified (faith or not). In a sense, I agree with you, the universalism creation at least eliminates the horror and terror of radical Calvinism which holds that no one can even guess if Jesus died for THEM, if the Gospel is for THEM, if their faith is actually embracing what exists for THEM or just an empty lie. I suspect these radical Calvinists invented Universalism not only because of the many, many verses that flat-out state Jesus died for all (and their inability to find the verse that also alludes MennoSota) BUT also to eliminate the horror and terror of Limited Atonement ("Jesus died for ONLY SOME and God only knows - literally - who that is and is not). Of the two forms of eliminating faith, I agree, universalism is the better. But I stand with Scripture, the Councils, Tradition in holding to Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide and thus reject them both, holding that faith does have a role; where there is faith in Christ there is justification for them.




.
 

MoreCoffee

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Well, in my Christian Universalist beliefs, I certainly believe he died for all - but I believe all will eventually be saved - though, maybe not in this life cycle. Anyway, the alternative simply causes too much of a problem with the Predestination idea. I mean, Presbyterians have it right in stating that stuff - sort of. However, how can we reconcile that with other verses seemingly saying "Jesus died for all."?

I often lean towards universalism despite my Church officially decrying universalism as heretical.

I reason that God - who is Love - would seem odd if he said "here's a story I want you to believe without necessarily having entirely convincing evidence that it is true and if you do not believe it then I will send you to hell to burn in agony for eternity" while being Love itself. But I am sure someone will have an explanation for why that is loving and good, it may not be a convincing explanation but I am sure one will be forthcoming.
 

Albion

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Well, in my Christian Universalist beliefs, I certainly believe he died for all - but I believe all will eventually be saved - though, maybe not in this life cycle. Anyway, the alternative simply causes too much of a problem with the Predestination idea. I mean, Presbyterians have it right in stating that stuff - sort of. However, how can we reconcile that with other verses seemingly saying "Jesus died for all."?

I have wrestled with that very issue myself. However, there really is very little that even hints at the possibility of Universal Salvation. That idea is primarily a conclusion arrived at through hope and logic, not scripture.

Against it we have the predestinarian thinking and the concept of eternal exclusion for some people from God. It does have a lot of scripture behind it, even though it is possible that our interpretations are incorrect. But with Universalism, there is almost nothing for us to attempt to interpret!
 

MoreCoffee

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If God is love as saint John writes that he is and if Love is patient, kind, unselfish, generous, and numerous other good things then why does Love allegedly say "believe or burn in hell for eternity" especially when Love is in charge of heaven, hell, and everything in between?
 

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If God is love as saint John writes that he is and if Love is patient, kind, unselfish, generous, and numerous other good things then why does Love allegedly say "believe or burn in hell for eternity" especially when Love is in charge of heaven, hell, and everything in between?
God is omnipresence, his deep love for his rejectors creates friction - hell, "God is a consuming fire" and "is love" thus it's hell for those who try to escape it because they can't
 
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