Jesus Christ, died for all

[YourTruthGod]

If all the jailer had to do is believe and nothing else, why did he ask what he had to do and why then was he water baptized with the baptism of repentance?

In Acts 2:37 those to whom Peter preached responded by asking, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Why did Peter say, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Why doesn’t Peter say you will be saved if God has regenerated you to believe?

In addition, we see that after Paul believed he was baptized with the baptism of repentance (Acts 9:18); as were the Samaritans (Acts 8:12); the Ethiopian (Acts 8:35-39); Cornelius (Acts 10:47-48) and Crispus (Acts 18:8).

 

[YourTruthGod]

Just look at what Jesus says:

Mark 1:15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!"

Matthew 4:17
From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near."


Jesus says the kingdom of God is near.

It is exactly what Paul teaches:

God is near, and repent.

Acts 17:27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.


The kingdom of God is NEAR ALL OF US.

The kingdom of God is near all of us, and we have to believe and repent of our sins to receive the kingdom INSIDE OF US. That is about receiving the Holy Spirit.


The Bible is not cut up all over the place; this for you that for me, this for them, etc.

There is one message and it is believe and obey God.

That has been the message from the beginning. The message is believe and obey God.

Listen carefully to what Paul says:

Romans 6:16 PAUL says, "...whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness..."


We ALL are doing works, even before we are saved. We do good works AND BAD WORKS.

We know good from evil.

We either live to please our flesh, which leads to sin; or we are OBEDIENT to Christ, which leads to righteousness.

We have to BELIEVE AND REPENT.

Mark 1:15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!"


That obedience to Christ leads to salvation.

Jesus tells us we have to obey.

Those who OBEY are the ones he makes his home with, see John 14:23.

THAT SCRIPTURE SAYS THOSE WHO OBEY HIS TEACHINGS.

Jesus teaches us to believe and REPENT OF OUR SINS.

Those who obey are the ones who receive the Holy Spirit. See Acts 5:32.

NOWHERE ANYWHERE DO THE SCRIPTURES SAY you will believe and obey AFTER GOD REGENERATES YOU.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Proof to Calvinists and all that a person has to repent of their sins to be saved:

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

That is about the people who were CUT OFF and hardened.

Now listen to what they have to do to GET SAVED:

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


NOWHERE ANYWHERE is your false teaching there.
No such scripture that says God regenerates people to believe and obey.

 

[YourTruthGod]

The other thief on the cross also believed that Jesus was God.

However, he did not have a right heart.

Jesus tells us how to make our heart right for salvation.

With some people, with most people, this can be more of an effort.

Think of the time the magician believed.

13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”


NOWHERE ANYWHERE do the scriptures say that God didn't regenerate the sinners so that they couldn't be saved!

 

[MennoSota]

You can't defend your beliefs, otherwise you would read what I write and prove it it wrong.

Multiple people have defended our beliefs. Look elsewhere for your crutch.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Multiple people have defended our beliefs. Look elsewhere for your crutch.

What a forest of opposers have collected around your little field of beliefs.

 

[Josiah]

You are saying that humans must take the gift and use it or they go to hell.


.

You just made that up. We all KNOW I never remotely posted any such thing. Try reading the words I post. What I'm saying is what I said: Justification is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide; that justification INCLUDED faith that applies the work of Christ to the individual; the Bible is correct when it notes that Christ died for all but faith is not present in all. I'm standing with the verbatim words of Scripture in MANY, MANY verses... with the Ecumenical Council of Orange.... with 1500 years of Christianity (and indeed, virtually all in the past 500 years, too).... and with the doctrine of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.


Here's the reality. The Bible - over and over and over and over again - specifically, boldly, clearly STATES that Jesus died for ALL. And for 1500 years, every Christian accepted and believed that, until a FEW latter-day radical Calvinists invented the horrible idea that that's not true and that Jesus died for ONLY some (and only God knows who those few are). You must either ignore ALL those MANY Scriptures that flat-out contradict this horrible invention or you must "spin" them 180 degrees so that they "mean" the exact opposite of what thost MANY Scriptures say. You have documented this - many times. And like all these radical Calvinists for nearly 500 years, you can't find even one verse that says what this horrible invention does. Not one. Nothing. You simply left with this contradiction of Scripture and solid, ecumenical faith and this repudiation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE, this repudiation of faith, this horror that no one can know if they are saved. No wonder this horrible invention has largely been repudiated by Calvinists, no wonder it is the LEAST accepted idea among Calvinists that those few later-day radical Calvinists invented.

I never made anything up.
You created an analogy where God buys everyone a Starbucks card, but the person must use it to get the coffee.
The Starbucks card is faith, in your analogy.

You made it up. I said NOTHING about humans doing anything, I talked about FAITH doing something, the necessity of faith being present. I said that justification is NOT a matter ONLY of Jesus dying for an individual, I'm disagreeing with your abandonment of faith in justification, your repudiation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE, your point that if Christ died for all, ergo all are justified (because, faith is irrelevant).


Faith is not irrelevant. It is essential. Faith is the means by which the work of Christ is applied to an individual; NO individual is justified without faith. Did Christ die for all? That what the Bible says - over and over and over, boldly, verbatim. It's what the Ecumenical Council of Orange said. It's what every Christian who lived during the first 1500 years of Christianity believed, it's what nearly all Christians now believe (including every Calvinist personally known to me). Now, does that mean all are justified? No. Just as the Bible says - over and over and over, boldly, verbatim. Just as the Council of Orange said. Just as every Christian for 1500 years believed and nearly all still do. Christ died for all.... but not all have faith.... and because BOTH are needed, where only one is present, there is no justification. If the blessing is not received, if the blessing is not trusted and relied upon (faith) it doesn't benefit the individual.


These very few radical latter-day Calvinists invented this HORRIBLE dogma out of whole cloth, in direct contradiction of SO MANY Scriptures..... making faith irrelevant (which is why so many of them created and ended up in Universalism and a host of other errors).


What I'm saying is what I said: Justification is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide; that justification INCLUDED faith that applies the work of Christ to the individual; the Bible is correct when it notes that Christ died for all but faith is not present in all. I'm standing with the verbatim words of Scripture in MANY, MANY verses... with the Ecumenical Council of Orange.... with 1500 years of Christianity (and indeed, virtually all in the past 500 years, too).... and with the doctrine of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.

Based on your analogy, you teach that He gives the gift of faith to everyone

Friend, you keep making up ABSURD, SILLY things I never said - and everyone here knows I NEVER in my whole life suggested such a stupid thing.

Even though God bought them, God does not take them home. He throws them out

Friend, EVERYONE (including you) knows I never remotely said such a horrible thing (which is why you can't quote me saying such a stupid, absurd thing). Try reading my posts.

God pre-gifted to him.

Jesus died for all - as the Bible says. Not all have faith, and thus don't accept, trust, rely in such - thus, never receive it.

Friend, your repudiation of the role of faith in justification is your uber-Calvinist error/heresy; your repudiation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE as ONE inseparable truth in justification. YES! The work of Jesus is ESSENTIAL (no one can be justified without) and YES faith is ESSENTIAL (no one can be justified without it). The Bible, the Council of Orange, every Christian for 1500 years until a tiny few extremist, radical Calvinists came along, hold that Jesus died for all, but not all are saved because not all have faith. Faith is NOT irrelevant, unnecessary, moot, worthless, useless. It is what embraces, accepts, trusts, relies on the gift - meaning it is applied to the individual.

Josiah.This is what you declared. Everyone can read it. You cannot backpedal on what you teach.

You don't quote me because I never said the absurd, heretical, stupid things you blame me for. And everyone knows it.

Jesus isn't 100% Savior. Humans must use the faith they have been given in order to be saved. Humans are 50% Savior and God is 50% Savior.

Absurd! Jesus is 100% the Savior. Christ does ALL the atoning work; 100% - as I have been posting here since before you came here. And this is apprehended, applied to the individual by faith. Your error of eliminating faith, repudiating Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE is the problem. For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life. NOT: For God so loved just an unnamed few that He gave Jesus just for them and therefore they are saved since faith is irrelevant.




.

 

[MennoSota]

What a forest of opposers have collected around your little field of beliefs.

This is true. I know what scripture says. If you wish to present your argument using scripture in context, I am open to learning. If you wish to appeal to historical synods, council's, and your church dogma, it is highly unlikely you will persuade me.
It is scripture that persuades me to believe God is entirely sovereign and chooses whom he wills. I make no apology for the faith God has given me.

 

[Josiah]

MennoSota,


What I'm saying is what I said: Justification is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide; as one inseparable truth; that justification INCLUDES faith that applies the work of Christ to the individual; the Bible is correct when it notes that Christ died for all but faith is not present in all. I'm standing with the verbatim words of Scripture in MANY, MANY verses... with the Ecumenical Council of Orange.... with 1500 years of Christianity (and indeed, virtually all in the past 500 years, too).... and with the doctrine of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.


Here's the reality. The Bible - over and over and over and over again - specifically, boldly, clearly STATES that Jesus died for ALL. And for 1500 years, every Christian accepted and believed that, until a FEW latter-day radical Calvinists invented the horrible idea that that's not true and that Jesus died for ONLY some (and only God knows who those few are). You must either ignore ALL those MANY Scriptures that flat-out contradict this horrible invention or you must "spin" them 180 degrees so that they "mean" the exact opposite of what thost MANY Scriptures say. You have documented this - many times. And like all these radical Calvinists for nearly 500 years, you can't find even one verse that says what this horrible invention does. Not one. Nothing. You simply left with this contradiction of Scripture and solid, ecumenical faith and this repudiation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE, this repudiation of faith, this horror that no one can know if they are saved. No wonder this horrible invention has largely been repudiated by Calvinists, no wonder it is the LEAST accepted idea among Calvinists that those few later-day radical Calvinists invented.



Biblical Christianity does not delete faith from justification. By eliminating the doctrine of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE, you create a wrong premise. You insist that by embracing faith, we "contradict" you - and I guess you're right. Yes, Christ died for all.... yes, the divine gift of faith apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies in what Christ did and thus benefits from it (Romans 5:1-2, etc. etc.).... yes, not all have faith and thus not all benefit. Faith is the means whereby the gift is applied to the individual. Not all have faith, thus not all are justified. It's not the lack of Christ, it's the lack of faith.


Yes, many of us have given you a long, long, long list of Scriptures that teach this.... we've referred you to the Council of Orange.... we've used examples and illustrations.... but you insist on rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable united doctrine, you insist on eliminating faith from justification, you insist on parroting the modern tradition of one denomination and just ignoring all the Scriptures that teach the opposite. I'll try again: Your premise is silly and illogical, you ASSUME that is something doesn't benefit an individual, then it was never given.



Read the following. And believe.


1 John 2:2

John 3:14-16

John 3:36

John 4:42

John 1:9

Acts 2:21

Romans 5: 1-2

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:3-4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 4:4:14

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24


See if you can be the first radical Calvinist to find a verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few.... "ONLY" being the dogma and thus the essential word. Be the first one EVER to quote the verse that states all the many Scriptures above are wrong and Jesus died for ONLY some. Don 't just ask false questions founded on false premises, but quote the verse. Be the first EVER to quote the verse that proves all the above Scriptures are wrong and for 1500 years every Christian was wrong and for the past 500 years, every non-Calvinist (and indeed most Calvinists) are wrong.






.

 

[MennoSota]

You made it up. I never remotely said "You are saying that humans must take the gift and use it or they go to hell." Which is why you didn't quote me saying that, because I did not. I said NOTHING about humans doing anything. I said that justification is NOT a matter ONLY of Jesus dying for you, I'm disagreeing with your abandonment of faith in justification, your repudiation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE, your point that if Christ died for all, ergo all are justified (because, faith is irrelevant).


Faith is not irrelevant. It is essential. Faith is the means by which the work of Christ is applied to an individual; NO individual is justified without faith. Did Christ die for all? That what the Bible says - over and over and over, boldly, verbatim. It's what the Ecumenical Council of Orange said. It's what every Christian who lived during the first 1500 years of Christianity believed, it's what nearly all Christians now believe (including every Calvinist personally known to me). Now, does that mean all are justified? No. Just as the Bible says - over and over and over, boldly, verbatim. Just as the Council of Orange said. Just as every Christian for 1500 years believed and nearly all still do. Christ died for all.... but not all have faith.... and because BOTH are needed, where only one is present, there is no justification. If the blessing is not received, if the blessing is not trusted and relied upon (faith) it doesn't benefit the individual.


These very few radical latter-day Calvinists invented this HORRIBLE dogma out of whole cloth, in direct contradiction of SO MANY Scriptures..... making faith irrelevant (which is why so many of them created and ended up in Universalism and a host of other errors).


What I'm saying is what I said: Justification is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide; that justification INCLUDED faith that applies the work of Christ to the individual; the Bible is correct when it notes that Christ died for all but faith is not present in all. I'm standing with the verbatim words of Scripture in MANY, MANY verses... with the Ecumenical Council of Orange.... with 1500 years of Christianity (and indeed, virtually all in the past 500 years, too).... and with the doctrine of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.






Friend, you keep making up ABSURD, SILLY things I never said - and everyone here knows I NEVER in my whole life suggested such a stupid thing.





Friend, EVERYONE (including you) knows I never remotely said such a horrible thing (which is why you can't quote me saying such a stupid, absurd thing). Try reading my posts.






Jesus died for all - as the Bible says. Not all have faith, and thus don't accept, trust, rely in such - thus, never receive it.

Friend, your repudiation of the role of faith in justification is your uber-Calvinist error/heresy; your repudiation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE as ONE inseparable truth in justification. YES! The work of Jesus is ESSENTIAL (no one can be justified without) and YES faith is ESSENTIAL (no one can be justified without it). The Bible, the Council of Orange, every Christian for 1500 years until a tiny few extremist, radical Calvinists came along, hold that Jesus died for all, but not all are saved because not all have faith. Faith is NOT irrelevant, unnecessary, moot, worthless, useless. It is what embraces, accepts, trusts, relies on the gift - meaning it is applied to the individual.







You don't quote me because I never said the absurd, heretical, stupid things you blame me for. And everyone knows it.





Absurd! Jesus is 100% the Savior. Christ does ALL the atoning work; 100% - as I have been posting here since before you came here. And this is apprehended, applied to the individual by faith. Your error of eliminating faith, repudiating Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE is the problem. For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life. NOT: For God so loved just an unnamed few that He gave Jesus just for them and therefore they are saved since faith is irrelevant.




.

Josiah, we don't disagree on faith. God gives it to his chosen people. Faith reveals the work of God in adoption, atonement, justification and sanctification.
You created the analogy, Josiah. You made up the whole scenario where a person buys a gift card and gives it to another whereby the recipient must use it for it to be of any value.
I simply asked if a person who bought a product from the store would take it and bring what he bought home or would he leave it behind as an unwanted item. You refuse to answer my question.
Your analogy makes the recipient of the gift card responsible, not the person who bought the card. Your analogy is obvious.
But, it irks you when I point out the obvious err in your thinking. You know it shows you to be a semi-pelagian and that bothers. I'm not the one who created the horrible analogy. You did. Own it.
The facts are clear. You teach that God bought all humanity when he died for sins. You teach that in purchasing all humanity, God gave out faith (your Starbucks gift card). Humans fail to avail themselves of the faith God gifted to them after the cross. Humans are sent to hell for their failure to grab the faith they are given and use it.
Complain all you want. You have said what you said. Own the fact you support semi-pelagian theology.

 

[YourTruthGod]

This is true. I know what scripture says. If you wish to present your argument using scripture in context, I am open to learning. If you wish to appeal to historical synods, council's, and your church dogma, it is highly unlikely you will persuade me.
It is scripture that persuades me to believe God is entirely sovereign and chooses whom he wills. I make no apology for the faith God has given me.

Why don't you read what I post and speak about those scriptures?

 

[YourTruthGod]

Josiah, we don't disagree on faith. God gives it to his chosen people. Faith reveals the work of God in adoption, atonement, justification and sanctification.
You created the analogy, Josiah. You made up the whole scenario where a person buys a gift card and gives it to another whereby the recipient must use it for it to be of any value.
I simply asked if a person who bought a product from the store would take it and bring what he bought home or would he leave it behind as an unwanted item. You refuse to answer my question.
Your analogy makes the recipient of the gift card responsible, not the person who bought the card. Your analogy is obvious.
But, it irks you when I point out the obvious err in your thinking. You know it shows you to be a semi-pelagian and that bothers. I'm not the one who created the horrible analogy. You did. Own it.
The facts are clear. You teach that God bought all humanity when he died for sins. You teach that in purchasing all humanity, God gave out faith (your Starbucks gift card). Humans fail to avail themselves of the faith God gifted to them after the cross. Humans are sent to hell for their failure to grab the faith they are given and use it.
Complain all you want. You have said what you said. Own the fact you support semi-pelagian theology.

You didn't even know that Josiah and I have different beliefs.

 

[MennoSota]

MennoSota,


What I'm saying is what I said: Justification is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide; as one inseparable truth; that justification INCLUDES faith that applies the work of Christ to the individual; the Bible is correct when it notes that Christ died for all but faith is not present in all. I'm standing with the verbatim words of Scripture in MANY, MANY verses... with the Ecumenical Council of Orange.... with 1500 years of Christianity (and indeed, virtually all in the past 500 years, too).... and with the doctrine of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.


Here's the reality. The Bible - over and over and over and over again - specifically, boldly, clearly STATES that Jesus died for ALL. And for 1500 years, every Christian accepted and believed that, until a FEW latter-day radical Calvinists invented the horrible idea that that's not true and that Jesus died for ONLY some (and only God knows who those few are). You must either ignore ALL those MANY Scriptures that flat-out contradict this horrible invention or you must "spin" them 180 degrees so that they "mean" the exact opposite of what thost MANY Scriptures say. You have documented this - many times. And like all these radical Calvinists for nearly 500 years, you can't find even one verse that says what this horrible invention does. Not one. Nothing. You simply left with this contradiction of Scripture and solid, ecumenical faith and this repudiation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE, this repudiation of faith, this horror that no one can know if they are saved. No wonder this horrible invention has largely been repudiated by Calvinists, no wonder it is the LEAST accepted idea among Calvinists that those few later-day radical Calvinists invented.



Biblical Christianity does not delete faith from justification. By eliminating the doctrine of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE, you create a wrong premise. You insist that by embracing faith, we "contradict" you - and I guess you're right. Yes, Christ died for all.... yes, the divine gift of faith apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies in what Christ did and thus benefits from it (Romans 5:1-2, etc. etc.).... yes, not all have faith and thus not all benefit. Faith is the means whereby the gift is applied to the individual. Not all have faith, thus not all are justified. It's not the lack of Christ, it's the lack of faith.


Yes, many of us have given you a long, long, long list of Scriptures that teach this.... we've referred you to the Council of Orange.... we've used examples and illustrations.... but you insist on rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable united doctrine, you insist on eliminating faith from justification, you insist on parroting the modern tradition of one denomination and just ignoring all the Scriptures that teach the opposite. I'll try again: Your premise is silly and illogical, you ASSUME that is something doesn't benefit an individual, then it was never given.



Read the following. And believe.


1 John 2:2

John 3:14-16

John 3:36

John 4:42

John 1:9

Acts 2:21

Romans 5: 1-2

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:3-4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 4:4:14

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24


See if you can be the first radical Calvinist to find a verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few.... "ONLY" being the dogma and thus the essential word. Be the first one EVER to quote the verse that states all the many Scriptures above are wrong and Jesus died for ONLY some. Don 't just ask false questions founded on false premises, but quote the verse. Be the first EVER to quote the verse that proves all the above Scriptures are wrong and for 1500 years every Christian was wrong and for the past 500 years, every non-Calvinist (and indeed most Calvinists) are wrong.






.

Justification is God choosing to accept Jesus propitiation for sin as the payment for our sin, thus making us right with God.
The Solas express God's work in the elect, not in those who die in their trespasses and sins.
Your dogged claim of unlimited atonement makes you two faced regarding God's work. You require both God and man to work in syncretist action for salvation to be accomplished.
Can you not accept that God chooses only whom He wills to save and only whom He wills to give faith?

 

[MennoSota]

It should be noted that persons who resort to bringing up Calvin are viewed as having illegitimate arguments by me. I skim over whatever is said because the argument is in scripture or it is no argument.

 

[MennoSota]

You didn't even know that Josiah and I have different beliefs.

Sure I do. I disagree with Josiah regarding atonement. I disagree with you on many other issues as I view you as a cult member who has come into CH.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, we don't disagree on faith.

Do all have faith? If not, are all saved? If the Bible is correct and Jesus died for all.... and the Bible is correct that not all have faith... and the Bible is correct that BOTH Christ's work AND ALSO faith (both) are necessary for justification, then what is the reason some aren't saved? Is it the lack of Christ for us or the lack of personal faith?

Not that I give a rip for theology based on humans asking questions and others "answering them."

God gives it to his chosen people. Faith reveals the work of God

Agreed, as I have so often said and as the Bible so clearly says.

Now, where is the list of clear Scriptures that STATE that Jesus did NOT die for all (all those many, many Scriptures are wrong) but ONLY (that's the ESSENTIAL word required for this horrible invention) but ONLY for some?

You created the analogy, Josiah. You made up the whole scenario where a person buys a gift card and gives it to another whereby the recipient must use it for it to be of any value.

No, that's not what I said. What I said is the card must be accepted/trusted/relied/used for it to benefit the individual. Pistos - faith - to rely, to trust, to apply. Faith is not moot, not irrelevant, not useless. Justification is NOT ONLY a matter of Jesus's work (which HE did perfectly and completely, 100%). It's NOT Sola Gratia - Solus Christus (that's heresy), it's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.

Scripture, the Council of Orange, 1500 years of every Christian on the planet... accepts what the Bible so often says: Christ died for all. Not not have faith. Not all are saved. Why, because the Bible is wrong about Jesus dying for everyone? No, because the Bible is right that not all have faith.

The facts are clear. You teach that God bought all humanity when he died for sins. You teach that Humans fail to avail themselves of the faith God gifted to them after the cross.

'The facts are clear: You can't quote me saying such silliness because we all know I never said it.


That's SO absurd, so obviously wrong (and EVERYONE KNOWS IT) that I won't waste my time giving it the time of day. And we all know, IF I had said such a silly, stupid thing, you'd quote me saying it. But you know I did not. No, I won't "own" some heretical, stupid, silly thing EVERYONE HERE (including you ) knows I never said and don't believe.

Faith - BY DEFINITION - does embrace, accept, trust, rely, apply the work of Christ. But not all have faith. I never said all have faith - that's a heresy of some Calvinists - I said (over and over and over and over - do you EVER read a word people post????) that NOT, N.O.T., NOT all have faith. Thus, not all benefit from the work of Christ.

You CLAIM you don't delete faith.... but then why do you omit it from your questions and points? Do all have faith? Thus are all justified? OR is it a matter that faith is irrelevant and the ONLY thing that matters is whether one is among the unknowable, unnamed FEW for whom Jesus died (making SO many Scriptures flat out wrong)? By deleting faith, you assume that if one isn't saved, it's because Christ didn't die for them (and Scripture, the Council of Orange, 1500 years of every Christian are wrong). You are wrong. You deleting faith from the formula is wrong. Your rejection of the Council of Orange is wrong. Your repudiation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide is wrong. This horrible dogma invented by these few latter-day radical Calvinists is wrong. And it's a horrible thing.


Read the following. And believe.


1 John 2:2

John 3:14-16

John 3:36

John 4:42

John 1:9

Acts 2:21

Romans 5: 1-2

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:3-4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 4:4:14

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24


See if you can be the first radical Calvinist to find a verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few.... ONLY some.... "ONLY" being the dogma and thus the essential word.... not "all" as the Bible says. Be the first one EVER to quote the verse that states all the many Scriptures above are wrong and Jesus died for ONLY some. Don 't just ask false questions founded on false premises, but quote the verse. Be the first EVER to quote the verse that proves all the above Scriptures are wrong and for 1500 years every Christian was wrong and for the past 500 years, every non-Calvinist (and indeed most Calvinists) are wrong.






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[YourTruthGod]

It should be noted that persons who resort to bringing up Calvin are viewed as having illegitimate arguments by me. I skim over whatever is said because the argument is in scripture or it is no argument.

You skim over what I say because you can't defend your beliefs.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Sure I do. I disagree with Josiah regarding atonement. I disagree with you on many other issues as I view you as a cult member who has come into CH.

You can't go against me with truth so you shouldn't say what you do about me.

Give the scripture that says God regenerates unbelievers so that they can believe Him.

Give the scripture now so that I can believe as you do.

 

[YourTruthGod]

2 Thessalonians 3:2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.


Many teach that God gives a special enabling to believe and obey Jesus.

However, that is nowhere in the Bible.

God enables all who have living faith, which is faith with obedience. How do you get this faith?

According to many, they say we just cannot believe in God and obey Him unless we are saved first by regeneration. However, it is nowhere in the Bible.

We can see that humans are capable of believing and obeying all kinds of things in this life without a special enabling.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.
Some in the time of Jesus on earth didn’t believe until they saw the miracles.

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!
Of course all are able, and that is why all will be held accountable.
Jesus saves us all on his own, and he chooses to save those who obey.
John the baptizer prepared the way for Jesus by having the Jews repent of their sins.
We have to prepare our hearts for Jesus to live in our hearts. We prepare the way for Jesus into our heart by repenting of our sins.

ALL can have faith through hearing, being taught, persuaded, and convinced from HIS MESSAGE. ALL CAN be given faith from His message. ALL CAN BE GIVEN FAITH FROM HIS MESSAGE. Jesus gives faith through His message to all who believe. Jesus died for ALL MEN, the WHOLE WORLD, for EVERYONE.
You have been confused into believing things that are taught by Luther and Calvin.

Jesus did not give the ability to believe to only some and not others…the ability to believe can be done by all. They can harden THEMSELVES. EVEN WE CAN HARDEN OURSELVES AFTER BEING SAVED. Hebrews 3:13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called "Today," so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Why do people reject Jesus?
Why do they believe in nothing, or in false gods/goddesses?
The Bible tells us why people do not believe.
The Bible tells us why Jesus does not save many.
The Bible tells us why people don't have faith and it is not because God did not regenerate them first.

Those who don't believe and obey Jesus love darkness instead of light because their deeds are evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

They are stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, and they always resist the Holy Ghost.

They are obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--

They do evil in God's sight and chose what displeases Him.

That which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations,

They exchange the truth of God for a lie.

They are self-seeking and they reject the truth and follow evil.

They do not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God.

They are hostile to God.

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

They have been deceived by sin.

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Their minds are on earthly things.

When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.

There are those who hear the word of God but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And there are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. There are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

They are stubborn and follow their own devices.

They are stubborn; the sinews of their neck are iron, their forehead are bronze.

They have stubborn and rebellious hearts; they have turned aside and gone away.

They do not listen or pay attention; instead, they follow the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They go backward and not forward.

They have stubborn pride.

They refuse to give up their evil practices and stubborn ways.

They are rebellious people, deceitful children, children unwilling to listen to the LORD’s instruction.

Stubborn like a heifer. How then can the LORD pasture them like lambs in a meadow?


John 3:19, 20; Acts 7:51; Isaiah30:9; 65:2; 65:11,12; Romans 1:19-21; 1:25; 1:28; 2:8; 8:7; 2 Thessalonians 2:10; Hebrews 3:13; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Philippians 3:19; Matthew 13:19; Luke 8:11-16; Psalm 81:12; Isaiah 48:4; Jeremiah 5:23; 7:24; Leviticus 26:19; Judges 2:19; Hosea 4:16.