Listening to the beliefs of people of different denominations

MoreCoffee

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Absolutely!!! Which is why it is obvious some are Gospel and some are Law. And why both are to be accepted rather than one chosen to "trump" the other.

God told me that all scripture is inspired by God and it is all beneficial for various things and to equip the godly for their calling to be his witnesses. God tells me to be sceptical about people who put divisions into the holy scriptures.
 

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People say that once you're saved you are saved come hell or high water.

God told me to obey his commandments.

Which way will you go?
Yes God told me the same, Love God and Love your neighbor, by these two commandments are the laws of the prophets fulfilled. In regards to the 10 commandments I know that my God loves me and I love him and so keeping these commandments are no sweat off my back, but even if it were, without Love my obedience is even corrupted. You can't have one without the other, and again...
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:35-39
 

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[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]





The Lutheran view on this (disagreeing with the hyper-Calvinist view of OSAS):

Gospel:



Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it."

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:


John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


ALL the above are fully true.


It's NOT a case that some "trump" the other (you just have to decide which trumps which).

The approach is NOT to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallible, sinful, human LOGIC and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to US. The approach is to accept both "sets" of scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them. But realize, some are Gospel and some are Law.

The issue is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic.

Do I understand how these "fit?" No. But

I know that the Gospel is spoken to comfort, to assure, to strengthen. God will not let go of our hand! The Gospel here is really just an application of the Gospel of Election. But the Law is shared to warn, to mandate... we can let go of God's hand.

Lutherans thus stand with historic, orthodox Christianity and disagree with a TINY group of radical Calvinists for the past 500 years who hold to OSAS (for this and many other reasons).



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBTy10EG0y8




Back to the issue.....



- Josiah






.
Once Elect Always Elect is more suitable, "saved" is such an abusive and loose term to toss around and has become meaningless I agree.
I don't sense my love of God ever failing, I can't speak for others, if someone says they love God and love to sin well then there is something off and the bible tells us we can't serve two masters or we will hate one and not the other... so which is it? Luke emphasises on the importance of well grounded Faith and testimony, one who is lost to the temptations of the world has never received Faith if they never steered away from the pattern of destruction they were on before, they blow away in the winds of sin and remain dead in faith because it was never rooted or solid like a rock.
 

Josiah

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The believers are not under the Law since the Law points to sin. The Law kills; Jesus gives life.

I see. So, we just edit out all the Law in the Bible and don't use for Theology? I disagree.

All the many Scriptures I quoted where written or said to CHRISTIANS.



.
 
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Josiah

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Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:35-39


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it."

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


ALL the above are true.
 

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Lutherans believe no one can snatch believers from God's hand as well. It's just that we also believe that man can wander off which is biblical.
Hebrews tells us it is impossible for Gods people to taste the good fruit and not be transformed, in Luke we are told that Faith is solid and that without solid faith you were never rooted in it, thus Faith is still absent.
 

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Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it."

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


ALL the above are true.
I agree with these scriptures, I don't understand what you tend to draw out of me, what's the significants? :/
 

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The 16th Century Invention of OSAS by a few radical Calvinists


[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]


Besides being CLEARLY unbiblical, the hyper-Calvinist invention 500 years ago of OSAS is a "terror" (as much of TULIP is).

These later-day radical Calvinists changed the focus from Christ and the Cross to the GENUINENESS of faith "in our hearts" (a totally unknowable and subjecting and inner thing), what matters is NOT the object of faith but whether the faith one has (at any moment) is "real" and "genuine" or only THOUGHT to be.

In addition to being contrary to Scripture, it creates a horrible situation.

The Gospel is: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Yes, faith is a part of this whole, but it is the OBJECT of that faith that matters, not the quanity or quality of it. There is only ONE appropriate question: "In WHOM do I rely?" "To WHOM is my faith directed?" CHRIST is the Savior (not my faith), so the issue is the sufficiency of CHRIST, not faith. What these later-day "Calvinists" that invented OSAS did was change the Gospel, and like Catholics, changed the focus from Christ to self (although BOTH stress that what is in us comes solely from God). For Catholics, it became the quantity and QUALITY of our lives, for these latter-day Calvinists, the quantity and QUALITY of our faith. Both create a "terror to the conscience" since there is no way to know if I'm good enough, if my faith is "true" or sufficient in quality and quantity.


An illustration:

Let's say Bob grows up in a Dutch Reformed Church, the child of a Deacon and the church organist and Sunday School Superintendent. He professes Christ - and this certainly seems sincere and completely believes that he believes. "I believe it all!" Bob says. Bob goes to Dartmouth College and rooms with an agnostic, who converts him. Bob now holds that Christianity, while it CAN have a good role, is simply false; Christ, if he ever lived at all, was in no sense whatever God or Savior. "I reject all that"

Let's evaluate from an OSAS position: There are three possibilities:

1. Bob NEVER believed. He totally, sincerely, absolutely thought he did, he said he did, everyone else totally believed he did. But he lied and they misunderstood. IF he REALLY believed, with TRUE faith, SUFFICIENT in quality and quantity, then he COULD NOT have "fallen away." Bob is going to hell - what he thought and said for 18 years was a lie.

2. Bob still believes. He totally, absolutely, completely rejects everything Christian but he still believes it all. Bob is lying to himself and everyone else and it is stupid for others to take what he professes and renounces with ANY seriousness: people lie, people misunderstand themselves. Bob is going to heaven.

3. Bob does NOT believe now but he is going to heaven anyway because for 18 years, he DID believe. The proper formula is: "Salvation is by faith in Christ AT ANY POINT IN ONE"S LIFE" so that a Buddhist monk, a passionate atheist is still going to heaven if - for a microsecond - the HAD faith. "ONCE saved ALWAYS saved" is the invention. Of course, there's no way to know if one ever did. Or even if he does now. And Scripture is wrong to say we must CONTINUE in faith since continuing or enduring has nothing to do with anything.

So, can Bob or anyone have any veiw as to whether Bob is (or ever was) a Christian? Nope.


Now, Bob graduates with a Ph.D. in philosophy and has written books on the glories and correctness of being an agnostic. But Calvinists don't know if he's a Christian or not, saved or not, going to heaven or not; if he EVER had TRUE faith or even if he does now. In time, Bob marries Sally, a good Reformed Baptist. Bob begins going to church with Sally and eventually with the kids. While it takes 10 years, Bob states that he now believes it all. He is now a Christian. Bob and Sally become leaders of the High School Youth Group and lead a Bible study group for seekers. Bob writes a book on Christian Apologetics.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position: There are 3 possibilities -

1. Bob ALWAYS believed. It's just for 20 years, he lied (albeit entirely sincerely; he genuinely and completely THOUGH he rejected Christianity and was an agnostic). Because he believe as a kid, he HAD to believe during those 20 years and HAS to believe now. Bob is a Christian, saved, going to heaven, HE ALWAYS WAS because once you believe - you cannot do otherwise. His return to the faith only confirms this. When people SAY they reject Christ, they lie. Don't consider what people sincerely and genuinely say they believe.

2. Bob does NOT believe! If his faith had been true and real, he never would have fallen, he never would have FOR TWENTY YEARS condemned Christianity, one with TRUE faith - sufficient in quality and quantity - could not and would not do it. His "return" is disgusting and hypocritical. You just can't believe what people SAY they believe - however genuine or sincere - because people unknowingly, unintentionally LIE all the time. Bob is a pagan and is hell bound. His pastor should remove him from his positions and excommunicate him.

3. Bob was saved when he was a kid and professed faith, Bob was saved for those 20 years when he boldly denied Christ and all of Christianity without faith, Bob is saved now because he has faith. Faith has nothing to do with anything. It's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. There is no faith that matters, which is why it doesn't matter if Bob had or has faith.


Sally is killed in a horrible accident as she serves as a volunteer crossing guard at the kid's Baptist school. Bob concludes that all this God stuff is a hoax and condemns God. He returns to his agnosticism - only now as atheism. He writes a best selling book about how Christianity is the most cruel hoax there is. Bob dies in this position.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position:

1. Bob always believed. He is again lying to himself and everyone else - as people OFTEN do. Bob sincerely, genuinely, passionately THINKS he rejects Christ but this is not a possibility. Bob believed as a kid - with REAL and TRUE and SUFFICIENT faith, ergo he is a Christian and saved. You can't believe what people say and do and proclaim because they lie all the time, they simply have NO WAY TO KNOW if they are trusting in Christ or not. Bob does and died a Christian. His funeral was at a Dutch Reformed Church, arranged by his brother. The pastor proclaimed that this atheist, famous for his anti-Christian books, is now in heaven and is a Christian which is why he is conducting this Christian funeral for him.

2. Bob NEVER believed. He NEVER had TRUE or REAL or GENUINE or SUFFICIENT faith. He never did. He lied. For over 30 years, he LIED. He never believed. He THOUGHT he did - sincerely, genuinely, passionately - and everyone else thought that, too! But it was all a lie. People LIE all the time about this stuff - although nearly always unintentionally because they GENUINELY and sincerely and passionately THINK they are trusting in Christ. But they aren't. You just can't believe what people profess. The Dutch Reformed pastor refuses to do the funeral, proclaiming that Bob is in hell - and God is glorified by the burning flames in which Bob is suffering; God gets off on this.

3. Bob is in heaven in spite of not having faith, because faith doesn't matter. All that matters is that God is getting His way. Whether Bob had faith - ever - is irrelevant. All that matters is what God gets off on: seeing Bob in heaven or watching Bob burn. It's Sola Soverignty, not Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE.


Bottom line:

So, there is NO WAY for Bob or anyone to know if Bob is or ever has been a Christian, saved or hell-bound. Not when he was a kid, not when he was writing all those anti-Christian books, not now. How can anyone (even Bob) KNOW if his faith is, was, or will be "genuine"? He CAN know if he is looking to the Cross or in the mirror but that's not the point in ONCE saved, ALWAYS saved.

And of course, it means that at least 15 Scriptures are flat out wrong. There's a reason no one accepted this prior to these FEW later-day Calvinists.... and not one Calvinist personally known to me (my wife's whole side of the family, for example) does today.





.
 

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The 16th Century Invention of OSAS by a few radical Calvinists


[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]


Besides being CLEARLY unbiblical, the hyper-Calvinist invention 500 years ago of OSAS is a "terror" (as much of TULIP is).

These later-day radical Calvinists changed the focus from Christ and the Cross to the GENUINENESS of faith "in our hearts" (a totally unknowable and subjecting and inner thing), what matters is NOT the object of faith but whether the faith one has (at any moment) is "real" and "genuine" or only THOUGHT to be.

In addition to being contrary to Scripture, it creates a horrible situation.

The Gospel is: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Yes, faith is a part of this whole, but it is the OBJECT of that faith that matters, not the quanity or quality of it. There is only ONE appropriate question: "In WHOM do I rely?" "To WHOM is my faith directed?" CHRIST is the Savior (not my faith), so the issue is the sufficiency of CHRIST, not faith. What these later-day "Calvinists" that invented OSAS did was change the Gospel, and like Catholics, changed the focus from Christ to self (although BOTH stress that what is in us comes solely from God). For Catholics, it became the quantity and QUALITY of our lives, for these latter-day Calvinists, the quantity and QUALITY of our faith. Both create a "terror to the conscience" since there is no way to know if I'm good enough, if my faith is "true" or sufficient in quality and quantity.


An illustration:

Let's say Bob grows up in a Dutch Reformed Church, the child of a Deacon and the church organist and Sunday School Superintendent. He professes Christ - and this certainly seems sincere and completely believes that he believes. "I believe it all!" Bob says. Bob goes to Dartmouth College and rooms with an agnostic, who converts him. Bob now holds that Christianity, while it CAN have a good role, is simply false; Christ, if he ever lived at all, was in no sense whatever God or Savior. "I reject all that"

Let's evaluate from an OSAS position: There are three possibilities:

1. Bob NEVER believed. He totally, sincerely, absolutely thought he did, he said he did, everyone else totally believed he did. But he lied and they misunderstood. IF he REALLY believed, with TRUE faith, SUFFICIENT in quality and quantity, then he COULD NOT have "fallen away." Bob is going to hell - what he thought and said for 18 years was a lie.

2. Bob still believes. He totally, absolutely, completely rejects everything Christian but he still believes it all. Bob is lying to himself and everyone else and it is stupid for others to take what he professes and renounces with ANY seriousness: people lie, people misunderstand themselves. Bob is going to heaven.

3. Bob does NOT believe now but he is going to heaven anyway because for 18 years, he DID believe. The proper formula is: "Salvation is by faith in Christ AT ANY POINT IN ONE"S LIFE" so that a Buddhist monk, a passionate atheist is still going to heaven if - for a microsecond - the HAD faith. "ONCE saved ALWAYS saved" is the invention. Of course, there's no way to know if one ever did. Or even if he does now. And Scripture is wrong to say we must CONTINUE in faith since continuing or enduring has nothing to do with anything.

So, can Bob or anyone have any veiw as to whether Bob is (or ever was) a Christian? Nope.


Now, Bob graduates with a Ph.D. in philosophy and has written books on the glories and correctness of being an agnostic. But Calvinists don't know if he's a Christian or not, saved or not, going to heaven or not; if he EVER had TRUE faith or even if he does now. In time, Bob marries Sally, a good Reformed Baptist. Bob begins going to church with Sally and eventually with the kids. While it takes 10 years, Bob states that he now believes it all. He is now a Christian. Bob and Sally become leaders of the High School Youth Group and lead a Bible study group for seekers. Bob writes a book on Christian Apologetics.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position: There are 3 possibilities -

1. Bob ALWAYS believed. It's just for 20 years, he lied (albeit entirely sincerely; he genuinely and completely THOUGH he rejected Christianity and was an agnostic). Because he believe as a kid, he HAD to believe during those 20 years and HAS to believe now. Bob is a Christian, saved, going to heaven, HE ALWAYS WAS because once you believe - you cannot do otherwise. His return to the faith only confirms this. When people SAY they reject Christ, they lie. Don't consider what people sincerely and genuinely say they believe.

2. Bob does NOT believe! If his faith had been true and real, he never would have fallen, he never would have FOR TWENTY YEARS condemned Christianity, one with TRUE faith - sufficient in quality and quantity - could not and would not do it. His "return" is disgusting and hypocritical. You just can't believe what people SAY they believe - however genuine or sincere - because people unknowingly, unintentionally LIE all the time. Bob is a pagan and is hell bound. His pastor should remove him from his positions and excommunicate him.

3. Bob was saved when he was a kid and professed faith, Bob was saved for those 20 years when he boldly denied Christ and all of Christianity without faith, Bob is saved now because he has faith. Faith has nothing to do with anything. It's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. There is no faith that matters, which is why it doesn't matter if Bob had or has faith.


Sally is killed in a horrible accident as she serves as a volunteer crossing guard at the kid's Baptist school. Bob concludes that all this God stuff is a hoax and condemns God. He returns to his agnosticism - only now as atheism. He writes a best selling book about how Christianity is the most cruel hoax there is. Bob dies in this position.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position:

1. Bob always believed. He is again lying to himself and everyone else - as people OFTEN do. Bob sincerely, genuinely, passionately THINKS he rejects Christ but this is not a possibility. Bob believed as a kid - with REAL and TRUE and SUFFICIENT faith, ergo he is a Christian and saved. You can't believe what people say and do and proclaim because they lie all the time, they simply have NO WAY TO KNOW if they are trusting in Christ or not. Bob does and died a Christian. His funeral was at a Dutch Reformed Church, arranged by his brother. The pastor proclaimed that this atheist, famous for his anti-Christian books, is now in heaven and is a Christian which is why he is conducting this Christian funeral for him.

2. Bob NEVER believed. He NEVER had TRUE or REAL or GENUINE or SUFFICIENT faith. He never did. He lied. For over 30 years, he LIED. He never believed. He THOUGHT he did - sincerely, genuinely, passionately - and everyone else thought that, too! But it was all a lie. People LIE all the time about this stuff - although nearly always unintentionally because they GENUINELY and sincerely and passionately THINK they are trusting in Christ. But they aren't. You just can't believe what people profess. The Dutch Reformed pastor refuses to do the funeral, proclaiming that Bob is in hell - and God is glorified by the burning flames in which Bob is suffering; God gets off on this.

3. Bob is in heaven in spite of not having faith, because faith doesn't matter. All that matters is that God is getting His way. Whether Bob had faith - ever - is irrelevant. All that matters is what God gets off on: seeing Bob in heaven or watching Bob burn. It's Sola Soverignty, not Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE.


Bottom line:

So, there is NO WAY for Bob or anyone to know if Bob is or ever has been a Christian, saved or hell-bound. Not when he was a kid, not when he was writing all those anti-Christian books, not now. How can anyone (even Bob) KNOW if his faith is, was, or will be "genuine"? He CAN know if he is looking to the Cross or in the mirror but that's not the point in ONCE saved, ALWAYS saved.

And of course, it means that at least 15 Scriptures are flat out wrong. There's a reason no one accepted this prior to these FEW later-day Calvinists.... and not one Calvinist personally known to me (my wife's whole side of the family, for example) does today.





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"Bob" is not a real person, a Bob type figure is unknown to us, we can't know Bobs heart like God does. You are speaking as if you are Bob and knew his heart.
Agnosticism/Atheism is a label that some people may say they relate to, but for all I know "Bob" could have repented in his heart that very second.
Can you name one person that you know for sure is definitely frying in hell? Why assume this for Bob?
Thou shall not bear false witness, we can't assume who is going to hell and who isn't by name.
I love you brother but choose a different approach
 

Josiah

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we can't know Bobs heart like God does.

EXACTLY!!!! Nor can Bob in OSAS.

That's just one of the problems with OSAS. Not only does it flat out contradict a LOT of Scripture, but it makes the same fundamental mistake the medieval Catholic Church often did - taking the focus off the Cross and putting it on self, something UNKNOWABLE and subjective in SELF - creating what is often called a "terror of the conscience."

Biblical Christianity is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Where they are, justification is. There is certainty because of the CROSS, not because it is guess that someone (including self) had GENUINE faith at some micro-second in their life.

The issue is not whether Bob at some micro-second had GENUINE, REAL faith (an issue NEITHER BOB OR ANY OTHER PERSON CAN KNOW) but rather the object of faith (which Bob CAN know); it's the genuiness of the Savior that matters. By switching the focus to something in SELF, these later-day radical Calvinists did the same thing some medieval Catholics did.




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Andrew

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EXACTLY!!!! Nor can Bob in OSAS.

That's just one of the problems with OSAS. Not only does it flat out contradict a LOT of Scripture, but it makes the same fundamental mistake the medieval Catholic Church often did - taking the focus off the Cross and putting it on self, something UNKNOWABLE and subjective in SELF - creating what is often called a "terror of the conscience."

Biblical Christianity is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Where they are, justification is. There is certainty because of the CROSS, not because it is guess that someone (including self) had GENUINE faith at some micro-second in their life.

The issue is not whether Bob at some micro-second had GENUINE, REAL faith (an issue NEITHER BOB OR ANY OTHER PERSON CAN KNOW) but rather the object of faith (which Bob CAN know); it's the genuiness of the Savior that matters. By switching the focus to something in SELF, these later-day radical Calvinists did the same thing some medieval Catholics did.




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We agree then, only God knows :)
The Elect MUST understand and believe the gospel period! OEAE is my take ;) Once Elect Always Elect. It is not for us to discern the faith of others, but the glue that seals our Faith is the Holy Spirit, without it you have no Love, without Love you have no Fulfillment, without Fulfillment you have no chance.
Without belief in Christ we are damned, that's it and that's all.
"It is finished"
 

Josiah

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We agree then, only God knows :)

What a horrible thing!!! So, we go though life having NO CLUE if we are saved, if we are loved, if Christ saves..... no idea if faith means ANYTHING. Yup, I agree, that IS the bottom line in hyper-Calvinism. Only God knows...

So, the Gospel means nothing. All the assurances in the Bible mean nothing. The Bible says, "these are written that YOU might KNOW..." but nope, no one can know a thing.


Without belief in Christ we are damned, that's it and that's all.

I agree, which is why OSAS is so very wrong.

That and it flat out contracts SO many Scriptures!

That and it creates the "terror" of which you wrote where NO ONE can KNOW anything whatsoever.... believe what you want, you can't know if you have GENUINE faith or are just kidding yourself because what matters is NOT whether you have faith in Christ or not but whether that faith is GENUINE, which you can't know - no one can. You can know in WHOM you believe but that's moot, it all hinges on whether that faith is pure, real, GENUINE.

Watch the video.



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Andrew

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What a horrible thing!!! So, we go though life having NO CLUE if we are saved, if we are loved, if Christ saves..... no idea if faith means ANYTHING. Yup, I agree, that IS the bottom line in hyper-Calvinism. Only God knows...

So, the Gospel means nothing. All the assurances in the Bible mean nothing. The Bible says, "these are written that YOU might KNOW..." but nope, no one can know a thing.




I agree, which is why OSAS is so very wrong.

That and it flat out contracts SO many Scriptures!

That and it creates the "terror" of which you wrote where NO ONE can KNOW anything whatsoever.... believe what you want, you can't know if you have GENUINE faith or are just kidding yourself because what matters is NOT whether you have faith in Christ or not but whether that faith is GENUINE, which you can't know - no one can. You can know in WHOM you believe but that's moot, it all hinges on whether that faith is pure, real, GENUINE.

Watch the video.



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I'll watch the video later on.
In regarding your concern of doubt that you claim super men Calvinist created... NOT TRUE.
I am sick and tired of people I never met (personally) telling me to doubt my faith, you got it backwards, I am no hyper 'whatever' I only said I was fond of Calvinism because as far as I have learned it's biblically sound and actually teaches 'rest' as the bible preaches, no denominations -just straight up basic biblical understanding.
Did the Apostles preach to constantly doubt ourselves and seek a true denomination? No they were speaking to the elect and warning them not to follow anything outside the gospel for many false teachers are already leading astray many (but it's IMPOSSIBLE for the Elect to be fooled)...
Stop preaching that believers should be doubters of their newness in Christ, all denominations do it and it's a great heresy and apostasy to teach this! ALL believers need to accept their role in the Body of Christ NOW and not feel withdrawn or bombarded on a daily basis, we are all of one accord so we should act like it.
 

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I will listen to odd beliefs more than others - and tolerate their members. Nonetheless, certain beliefs are so heinous that I will never accept them!
 

Josiah

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I am no hyper 'whatever'


No one remotely indicated you were. What I said is the OSAS is a product of a few 16th Century hyper-Calvinists. Which I think is undeniable and historical fact. It is this invention I addressed. I addressed a view you seemed to be endorsing.




Stop preaching that believers should be doubters


I'm doing EXACTLY the opposite!!!!!!! My whole point!!!!! I reject OSAS because it doubts. As you put it, it says 'only God knows" and thus is founded in doubt.




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Andrew

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No one remotely indicated you were. What I said is the OSAS is a product of a few 16th Century hyper-Calvinists. Which I think is undeniable and historical fact. It is this invention I addressed. I addressed a view you seemed to be endorsing.







I'm doing EXACTLY the opposite!!!!!!! My whole point!!!!! I reject OSAS because it doubts. As you put it, it says 'only God knows" and thus is founded in doubt.




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You were the one who brought up OSAS, I called "saved" a loose term.
Calvinist do not believe in OSAS
 

YourTruthGod

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Simple things. Growing up I ended up being stopped by people of different denominations to talk about the word of God and to be honest, I've always been fine with it, but it seems that for many, it is not the right thing to do.
I've heard too many times ina church how they talk of other denominations as an enemy that will just cause you to be lost and talks about converting people from otehr denominations to theirs, and not much cooperation between them to for example, coordinate mercy actions like cleaning the city, volunteer in a kids hospital, etc.


I don't know, I've grew used to listening to different denominations doing a little preach or giving me a free pamphlet, soo I didn't even think it was wrong until I made some Christian friends and went to certain church denominations.

I am just curiious to hear what is your take in hearing to other people's denominations talk about their beliefs. Do you think it sis fine so long it is not trying to convince you to convert, do you think it should be avoided at all costs?
Do you see other denominations as dangerous and rather not to have anything to do with them?

I was raised Catholic and when I got older, junior high age, a friend wanted me to go to a church service they had just for teenagers. My mom said dad would be mad if he finds out, and in a fearful voice she made me promise to tune them out when they speak about their religion. My poor mom thought she had us in the right church. All denominations teach some falseness, and some more than others.
 

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No one remotely indicated you were. What I said is the OSAS is a product of a few 16th Century hyper-Calvinists. Which I think is undeniable and historical fact. It is this invention I addressed. I addressed a view you seemed to be endorsing.







I'm doing EXACTLY the opposite!!!!!!! My whole point!!!!! I reject OSAS because it doubts. As you put it, it says 'only God knows" and thus is founded in doubt.




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Josiah, I have no idea what you are talking about or where you are getting your information.
Is God fully Sovereign over all things, yes or no?
 

MoreCoffee

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I will listen to odd beliefs more than others - and tolerate their members. Nonetheless, certain beliefs are so heinous that I will never accept them!

Some beliefs are hilarious when you think about them for a bit and many beliefs are just absurd.
 
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