Listening to the beliefs of people of different denominations

[Kaynil]

Simple things. Growing up I ended up being stopped by people of different denominations to talk about the word of God and to be honest, I've always been fine with it, but it seems that for many, it is not the right thing to do.
I've heard too many times ina church how they talk of other denominations as an enemy that will just cause you to be lost and talks about converting people from otehr denominations to theirs, and not much cooperation between them to for example, coordinate mercy actions like cleaning the city, volunteer in a kids hospital, etc.


I don't know, I've grew used to listening to different denominations doing a little preach or giving me a free pamphlet, soo I didn't even think it was wrong until I made some Christian friends and went to certain church denominations.

I am just curiious to hear what is your take in hearing to other people's denominations talk about their beliefs. Do you think it sis fine so long it is not trying to convince you to convert, do you think it should be avoided at all costs?
Do you see other denominations as dangerous and rather not to have anything to do with them?

 

[tango]

Simple things. Growing up I ended up being stopped by people of different denominations to talk about the word of God and to be honest, I've always been fine with it, but it seems that for many, it is not the right thing to do.
I've heard too many times ina church how they talk of other denominations as an enemy that will just cause you to be lost and talks about converting people from otehr denominations to theirs, and not much cooperation between them to for example, coordinate mercy actions like cleaning the city, volunteer in a kids hospital, etc.


I don't know, I've grew used to listening to different denominations doing a little preach or giving me a free pamphlet, soo I didn't even think it was wrong until I made some Christian friends and went to certain church denominations.

I am just curiious to hear what is your take in hearing to other people's denominations talk about their beliefs. Do you think it sis fine so long it is not trying to convince you to convert, do you think it should be avoided at all costs?
Do you see other denominations as dangerous and rather not to have anything to do with them?

I think a lot would depend on the nature of the differences, and the purpose of the listening. As a rule I like to talk with people who have different viewpoints because it helps me learn more about how others see the world. The only proviso is that "talk with" has to mean discussion of the merits of different viewpoints rather than the kind of "discussion" that so often happens on social media that consists of little more than calling people names.

For the most part I wouldn't see learning more about other denominations as a bad thing. If a "discussion" is going to turn into a lecture on "all the ways you are wrong" it seems to have little opportunity to benefit either side but if it features explanation of why different groups interpret different passages of Scripture in different ways it can only benefit anyone prepared to listen. I'd be a little wary of a discussion that had a primary aim of getting me to leave my church and go to some other church although someone presenting their thoughts on why my church was doing things that were unscriptural (assuming they were backed with coherent appeals to Scripture) is the sort of thing I'd want to hear.

I would be concerned about denominations and groups that deviate so far from any interpretation of Scripture that I could consider even remotely appropriate. If a group is notionally Christian but teaches something I consider to be a false gospel I'd want to see some solid Scriptural reasoning to demonstrate why their gospel wasn't false. That would probably take some doing, given I don't put labels like that on groups lightly.

 

[psalms 91]

I also like to hear different beliefs but I would caution that you should be grounded in what you believe and have a firm grasp of the Word or you could end up believing something other than the gospel

 

[Josiah]

I think a lot would depend on the nature of the differences, and the purpose of the listening. As a rule I like to talk with people who have different viewpoints because it helps me learn more about how others see the world. The only proviso is that "talk with" has to mean discussion of the merits of different viewpoints rather than the kind of "discussion" that so often happens on social media that consists of little more than calling people names.

For the most part I wouldn't see learning more about other denominations as a bad thing. If a "discussion" is going to turn into a lecture on "all the ways you are wrong" it seems to have little opportunity to benefit either side but if it features explanation of why different groups interpret different passages of Scripture in different ways it can only benefit anyone prepared to listen. I'd be a little wary of a discussion that had a primary aim of getting me to leave my church and go to some other church although someone presenting their thoughts on why my church was doing things that were unscriptural (assuming they were backed with coherent appeals to Scripture) is the sort of thing I'd want to hear.

I would be concerned about denominations and groups that deviate so far from any interpretation of Scripture that I could consider even remotely appropriate. If a group is notionally Christian but teaches something I consider to be a false gospel I'd want to see some solid Scriptural reasoning to demonstrate why their gospel wasn't false. That would probably take some doing, given I don't put labels like that on groups lightly.

Yeah.


IMO, some things need to be kept clearly in mind -


1. Right doctrine gets no one into heaven and gets no one right with God. People confuse FAITH (trust/reliance on Christ as the Savior) with DOCTRINE (what is taught about stuff). Lutherans (well, the LCMS and WELS Lutherans) are the only ones right about doctrine but they certainly are FAR from the only ones with the divine gift of faith. I don't agree with about 5% (Max) of the 2,865 points of the latest edition of the official Roman Catholic Catechism but I accept Catholics as my FULL, in every way EQUAL brothers and sisters in Christ, fully a part of Christ's Church and on their way to heaven. Just wrong (occasionally). Oh, and btw, I DO realize that I could be wrong, too (Just ask my wife). NOW, don't misunderstand. I LIKE for churches/denominations to have a stance. I dislike the ever-increasing trend to believe nothing, to stand for nothing, to have SHORT (and often meaningless) "statements of faith". Milktoast Christianity is condemnable. I just don't want "what is true" confused with "what saves." When I "debate" with a Catholic, for example, I'm talking with someone who is saved just like me, one with whom I'll be spending eternity in heaven, and I rejoice in his Savior as much as I do in mine. He's just wrong (lol).


2. I actually think the plethora of perspectives we have today CAN be good (well, it's possible). One of the reasons I'm here (rather than at some Lutheran site) is that here I get perspectives I've don't know, things I didn't know, "takes" I had never considered. And some times what I think gets challenged - and therefore examined. If we hide in a closet and only talk with self, we'll probably never grow and "wrong" will never be identified and corrected. Luther said, "Humility is the basis of all good theology" (or something like that) and I think gathering with other Christians who hold to other views can come from that. A philosophy prof of mine way back in my undergraduate years always encouraged us to "live an examined life." I think that goes for our theology/doctrine/teachings too. Just don't get carried away with it.


3. Where I think Christian doctrine/teachings gets into trouble is the power of individualism and egoism. I rant about this constantly here at CH. Individualism (whether that be a person, a church, a denomination or whatever) - the constant MEism, what I think/feel/say/opinionate; self asking self questions and then appointing self to answer them and then requiring that God agrees (or God is stupid). Well, egoism just allows one to do that and think it's reasonable. And where egoism gets DANGEROUS is when self thinks that self don't need no Savior but self actually saves self (by "deciding" or "willling" or "doing XYZ" or whatever); egoism actually can destroy faith. The church is US - all Christians (alive and in heaven) TOGETHER..... the Bible was not given to any ONE but to ALL of us TOGETHER.... the Holy Spirit is not given to ONE but to ALL of us TOGETHER. It's important to look to the WHOLE of Scripture, to Tradition, to History. I put some stock in the Ecumenical Creeds and Councils. And I think that sometimes the wisest thing one can say is "I don't know" (just don't let that take you into relativism; humility and relativism are NOT the same thing); we are called to be "stewards of the MYSTERIES of God" not "correctors of God" or "Explainers for God."



Just my half cent.



- Josiah




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[Albion]

Simple things. Growing up I ended up being stopped by people of different denominations to talk about the word of God and to be honest, I've always been fine with it, but it seems that for many, it is not the right thing to do.
I've heard too many times ina church how they talk of other denominations as an enemy that will just cause you to be lost and talks about converting people from otehr denominations to theirs, and not much cooperation between them to for example, coordinate mercy actions like cleaning the city, volunteer in a kids hospital, etc.


I don't know, I've grew used to listening to different denominations doing a little preach or giving me a free pamphlet, soo I didn't even think it was wrong until I made some Christian friends and went to certain church denominations.

I am just curiious to hear what is your take in hearing to other people's denominations talk about their beliefs. Do you think it sis fine so long it is not trying to convince you to convert, do you think it should be avoided at all costs?
Do you see other denominations as dangerous and rather not to have anything to do with them?

Since you ask, my opinion about that is that it is all right. However, if you are going to enter into a discussion of doctrines and practices with someone who is a trained advocate for some other faith, you had better be very well-educated in your own!

That is what pastors worry about, that you could be deceived by a mistranslation of Scripture or some twisted logic or by an appeal to a phony version of Christian history. Thats what is especially worrisome when it comes to members of cults who are among the most aggressive of debaters.

So, the final answer to the question really lies with the readiness of the one being approached. If you are not, its probably best just to politely turn the invitation aside.

 

[tango]

Just to pick up on a point raised a couple of times here - you should know what you believe but it's just as important to know why you believe it. It's all very well to say "The Bible says...." but if you can't quote chapter and verse, or if you don't know the context, you're potentially vulnerable to having your thinking picked apart.

To give you an example, the Bible quite clearly says "You will declare a thing and it will be established for you". Taken out of context it sounds very much like we can more or less speak things into existence. Taken in context it means something very different - the verse in question is Job 22:28 and if you look at the context you see that the words were spoken by Eliphaz the Temmanite, one of Job's friends. Later on (in Job 42:7) we can read about what God thought of what Eliphaz had to say and suffice to say it wasn't very positive. If you've heard someone quote the verse, maybe looked it up to verify it really does say that, and haven't considered the context, don't be surprised if someone who knows the text better can argue more persuasively.

 

[psalms 91]

More learned or more persusasive does not mean right, I know scripture but cannot quote chapter and verse, there are many who are much better at that than I but Ido know what I believe and nothing will shake that as I have had many years to establish it

 

[Andrew]

Just to pick up on a point raised a couple of times here - you should know what you believe but it's just as important to know why you believe it. It's all very well to say "The Bible says...." but if you can't quote chapter and verse, or if you don't know the context, you're potentially vulnerable to having your thinking picked apart.

To give you an example, the Bible quite clearly says "You will declare a thing and it will be established for you". Taken out of context it sounds very much like we can more or less speak things into existence. Taken in context it means something very different - the verse in question is Job 22:28 and if you look at the context you see that the words were spoken by Eliphaz the Temmanite, one of Job's friends. Later on (in Job 42:7) we can read about what God thought of what Eliphaz had to say and suffice to say it wasn't very positive. If you've heard someone quote the verse, maybe looked it up to verify it really does say that, and haven't considered the context, don't be surprised if someone who knows the text better can argue more persuasively.

Very true, many churches have terrible sermons because they'll twist a verse out of context.
Also I never liked churches that damn all outsiders of that church, ridicules. All believers are saved, they are the church, and we are all of one accord.

 

[MennoSota]

Simple things. Growing up I ended up being stopped by people of different denominations to talk about the word of God and to be honest, I've always been fine with it, but it seems that for many, it is not the right thing to do.
I've heard too many times ina church how they talk of other denominations as an enemy that will just cause you to be lost and talks about converting people from otehr denominations to theirs, and not much cooperation between them to for example, coordinate mercy actions like cleaning the city, volunteer in a kids hospital, etc.


I don't know, I've grew used to listening to different denominations doing a little preach or giving me a free pamphlet, soo I didn't even think it was wrong until I made some Christian friends and went to certain church denominations.

I am just curiious to hear what is your take in hearing to other people's denominations talk about their beliefs. Do you think it sis fine so long it is not trying to convince you to convert, do you think it should be avoided at all costs?
Do you see other denominations as dangerous and rather not to have anything to do with them?

I don't think of Christianity in terms of denominations. I think of Christianity in terms of what scripture reveals about God. There is not one group that has God locked in and understood perfectly. There are some who are so wrong, however, that you must call out their false teaching.
For example, Mormons misunderstand God so significantly that no one can be saved by adhering to their teaching. The God they have created is not the God who created them.
The Apostles and Jesus warned against these wolves. However, how can we know the wolves if we don't read scripture?

 

[Jason76]

Some demonstrations are tougher at getting respect than others. For instance, I lean toward Christian Universalism - which basically says - eventually all will be saved - via temporal "hells" of some sort.

Of course, opponents of that view say it's wimpy, God is required to be stern or else - and that it's Biblically false.

 

[Lamb]

Simple things. Growing up I ended up being stopped by people of different denominations to talk about the word of God and to be honest, I've always been fine with it, but it seems that for many, it is not the right thing to do.
I've heard too many times ina church how they talk of other denominations as an enemy that will just cause you to be lost and talks about converting people from otehr denominations to theirs, and not much cooperation between them to for example, coordinate mercy actions like cleaning the city, volunteer in a kids hospital, etc.


I don't know, I've grew used to listening to different denominations doing a little preach or giving me a free pamphlet, soo I didn't even think it was wrong until I made some Christian friends and went to certain church denominations.

I am just curiious to hear what is your take in hearing to other people's denominations talk about their beliefs. Do you think it sis fine so long it is not trying to convince you to convert, do you think it should be avoided at all costs?
Do you see other denominations as dangerous and rather not to have anything to do with them?

This reminds me of the churches who would go door to door to hand our their tracts. I would invite them to my church and they ran away as fast as they could. It seems they're very eager to push their beliefs on me but don't want to hear my beliefs.

 

[tango]

More learned or more persusasive does not mean right, I know scripture but cannot quote chapter and verse, there are many who are much better at that than I but Ido know what I believe and nothing will shake that as I have had many years to establish it

If you know Scripture why not learn to quote chapter and verse, even if only for some things. You keep saying you know what you believe but unless you can explain why you believe it you don't have a basis for discussion - all you can say is "I believe this, the end" and there's no scope to discuss much of anything.

You are right that being more persuasive doesn't mean someone is correct, but if you're having a discussion it's much harder to hold your own with someone who knows what they are talking about, if you don't know what you are talking about. If, for example, you don't know the context of Job 22:28 and don't have the wisdom to consider context, if presented with that verse by someone from one of the "name it and claim it" groups you could easily struggle to counter it.

Ultimately if someone can't explain why they believe what they believe there's no way of knowing whether their beliefs are the result of their own study or whether it was something they read on the internet or heard from a pulpit decades ago and never bothered to think for themselves.

 

[Andrew]

I actually have grown fond of Calvinist belief because it puts all and every believer in the same boat regardless of "denomination", no one can snatch Gods elect from his hands, it's rather comforting knowing this biblical Truth, I don't have to concern myself with which denomination is 'the greatest' or 'closest to the truth' anymore

 

[Lamb]

I actually have grown fond of Calvinist belief because it puts all and every believer in the same boat regardless of "denomination", no one can snatch Gods elect from his hands, it's rather comforting knowing this biblical Truth, I don't have to concern myself with which denomination is 'the greatest' or 'closest to the truth' anymore

Lutherans believe no one can snatch believers from God's hand as well. It's just that we also believe that man can wander off which is biblical.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I actually have grown fond of Calvinist belief because it puts all and every believer in the same boat regardless of "denomination", no one can snatch Gods elect from his hands, it's rather comforting knowing this biblical Truth, I don't have to concern myself with which denomination is 'the greatest' or 'closest to the truth' anymore

People say that once you're saved you are saved come hell or high water.

God told me to obey his commandments.

Which way will you go?

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]

Lutherans believe no one can snatch believers from God's hand as well. It's just that we also believe that man can wander off which is biblical.

The Lutheran view on this (disagreeing with the hyper-Calvinist view of OSAS):

Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it."

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


ALL the above are fully true.


It's NOT a case that some "trump" the other (you just have to decide which trumps which).

The approach is NOT to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallible, sinful, human LOGIC and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to US. The approach is to accept both "sets" of scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them. But realize, some are Gospel and some are Law.

The issue is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic.

Do I understand how these "fit?" No. But

I know that the Gospel is spoken to comfort, to assure, to strengthen. God will not let go of our hand! The Gospel here is really just an application of the Gospel of Election. But the Law is shared to warn, to mandate... we can let go of God's hand.

Lutherans thus stand with historic, orthodox Christianity and disagree with a TINY group of radical Calvinists for the past 500 years who hold to OSAS (for this and many other reasons).



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBTy10EG0y8




Back to the issue.....



- Josiah






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[RichWh1]

Josiah
Try reading the Scripture in its context rather than taking bits and pieces from the context.
By doing that, anyone can have the Bible mean whatever they want it to.




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[Josiah]

Josiah
Try reading the Scripture in its context rather than taking bits and pieces from the context.

Absolutely!!! Which is why it is obvious some are Gospel and some are Law. And why both are to be accepted rather than one chosen to "trump" the other.

 

[RichWh1]

Absolutely!!! Which is why it is obvious some are Gospel and some are Law. And why both are to be accepted rather than one chosen to "trump" the other.

The believers are not under the Law since the Law points to sin. The Law kills; Jesus gives life.



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[Andrew]

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:35-39