When was Jesus Christ born?

[Alithis]

But you keep saying that the bible does not say which month so how can December be contrary to holy scripture?Surely you're not claiming that holy scripture excludes December, are you?

well it sure does not include it as a time of his birth . as we have already pointed out ..everything in the old testament is a type and shadow of that which is to come just as the lord jesus is the passover lamb and died as that lamb at the passover (not easter) so he is also the one that came from god and became flesh and made his tabernacle with men most probably in the pattern of scripture at the time of the feast of tabernacles .and you will note there is no paganism mingled in with the things God does. everything but everything the old and the new testament compliment one another in a most amazing way..

-in contrast the tradition of men and many of the teaching out of rome simply do not have that harmony of the scripture with them .

but you will defend that which you love the most ..it is the way of the heart .

but your post was just trying to detract from what has been clearly pointed out ..
the scripture does not say the lord jesus went to jerusalem to specifically observe the feast of dedication . neither does it say he observed it as Holy .. your making stuff up .

 

[psalms 91]

well it sure does not include it as a time of his birth . as we have already pointed out ..everything in the old testament is a type and shadow of that which is to come just as the lord jesus is the passover lamb and died as that lamb at the passover (not easter) so he is also the one that came from god and became flesh and made his tabernacle with men most probably in the pattern of scripture at the time of the feast of tabernacles .and you will note there is no paganism mingled in with the things God does. everything but everything the old and the new testament compliment one another in a most amazing way..

-in contrast the tradition of men and many of the teaching out of rome simply do not have that harmony of the scripture with them .

but you will defend that which you love the most ..it is the way of the heart .

but your post was just trying to detract from what has been clearly pointed out ..
the scripture does not say the lord jesus went to jerusalem to specifically observe the feast of dedication . neither does it say he observed it as Holy .. your making stuff up .

Well said

 

[MoreCoffee]

well it sure does not include it as a time of his birth . as we have already pointed out ..everything in the old testament is a type and shadow of that which is to come just as the lord jesus is the passover lamb and died as that lamb at the passover (not easter) so he is also the one that came from god and became flesh and made his tabernacle with men most probably in the pattern of scripture at the time of the feast of tabernacles .and you will note there is no paganism mingled in with the things God does. everything but everything the old and the new testament compliment one another in a most amazing way..

-in contrast the tradition of men and many of the teaching out of rome simply do not have that harmony of the scripture with them .

but you will defend that which you love the most ..it is the way of the heart .

but your post was just trying to detract from what has been clearly pointed out ..
the scripture does not say the lord jesus went to jerusalem to specifically observe the feast of dedication . neither does it say he observed it as Holy .. your making stuff up .

I think December has ample support both biblically and historically.

BY the way, what have you got against Easter? Did you know that "easter" is the name for the celebration in English but in Latin (pascha) and Italian (pasqua) and Spanish (pascua) and Greek (Πάσχα) and in the majority of Christian lands it is called passover? Easter is a good name for it in English but if you want to call it passover fine. It's the same thing.

 

[visionary]

While much of the world celebrates the birth of Yeshua on the 25th of December, can the actual day of Jesus' birth be determined from scripture?

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth....8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, .....23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house. 24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, ...

First clue... Zacharias and the "course" of Abia. There are 24 Courses of the Temple Priesthood.

7. But David, being desirous of ordaining his son king of all the people, called together their rulers to Jerusalem, with the priests and the Levites; and having first numbered the Levites, he found them to be thirty-eight thousand, from thirty years old to fifty; out of which he appointed twenty-three thousand to take care of the building of the temple, and out of the same, six thousand to be judges of the people and scribes, four thousand for porters to the house of God, and as many for singers, to sing to the instruments which David had prepared, as we have said already. He divided them also into courses: and when he had separated the priests from them, he found of these priests twenty-four courses, sixteen of the house of Eleazar, and eight of that of Ithamar; and he ordained that one course should minister to God eight days, from sabbath to sabbath. And thus were the courses distributed by lot, in the presence of David, and Zadok and Abiathar the high priests, and of all the rulers; and that course which came up first was written down as the first, and accordingly the second, and so on to the twenty-fourth; and this partition hath remained to this day. — Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 7, Chapter 14, Paragraph 7.

King David on God's instructions (1 Chr 28:11-13) had divided the sons of Eleazar and Ithamar, the sons of Aaron, into 24 groups (1 Chr 24:1-4), to setup a schedule by which the Temple of the Lord could be staffed with priests (Kohanim) all year round in an orderly manner. After the 24 groups of priests were established, lots were drawn to determine the sequence in which each group would serve in the Temple. (1 Chr 24: 7-19). That sequence is as follows:

The 24 courses of priests
1 Chr 24:7 1. Jehoiarib 2. Jedaiah
1 Chr 24:8 3. Harim 4. Seorim
1 Chr 24:9 5. Malchijah 6. Mijamin
1 Chr 24:10 7. Hakkoz 8. Abijah
1 Chr 24:11 9. Jeshuah 10. Shecaniah
1 Chr 24:12 11. Eliashib 12. Jakim
1 Chr 24:13 13. Huppah 14. Jeshebeab
1 Chr 24:14 15. Bilgah 16. Immer
1 Chr 24:15 17. Hezir 18. Aphses
1 Chr 24:16 19. Pethahiah 20. Jehezekel
1 Chr 24:17 21. Jachim 22. Gamul
1 Chr 24:18 23. Delaiah 24. Maaziah

1 Chr 24:19 These were the orderings of them in their service to come into the house of the LORD, according to their manner, under Aaron their father, as the LORD God of Israel had commanded him.

Now each one of the 24 "courses" of priests would begin and end their service in the Temple on the Sabbath, a tour of duty being for one week (2 Chr 23:8, 1 Chr 9:25). On three occasions during the year, all the men of Israel were required to travel to Jerusalem for festivals of the Lord, so on those occasions all the priests would be needed in the Temple to accommodate the many sacrifices offered by the crowds. Those three festivals were Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, and Tabernacles (Deut 16:16).

The Yearly Cycle of Service in the Temple.

The Jewish calendar begins in the spring, during the month of Nisan (Est 3:7), so the first "course" of priests, would be that of the family of Jehoiarib, who would serve for the first week of Nisan, Sabbath to Sabbath. The second week would then be the responsibility of the family of Jedaiah. The third week would be the feast of Unleavened Bread, and all priests would be present for service. Then the schedule would resume with the third course of priests, the family of Harim. By this plan, when the 24th course was completed, the general cycle of courses would repeat. This schedule would cover 51 weeks or 357 days, enough for the lunar Jewish calendar (about 354 days). So, in a period of a year, each group of priests would serve in the Temple twice on their scheduled course, in addition to the 3 major festivals, for a total of about five weeks of duty.

 

[visionary]

The Conception of John the Baptist.

Now back to Zacharias, the father of John the Baptist.

Luke 1:23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house. 24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, ...

Beginning with the first month, Nisan, in the spring (March-April), the schedule of the priest's courses would result with Zacharias serving during the 10th week of the year. This is because he was a member of the course of Abia (Abijah), the 8th course, and both the Feast of Unleavened Bread (15-21 Nisan) and Pentecost (6 Sivan) would have occurred before his scheduled duty. This places Zacharias' administration in the Temple as beginning on the second Sabbath of the third month, Sivan (May-June).

Having completed his Temple service on the third Sabbath of Sivan, Zacharias returned home and soon conceived his son John. So John the Baptist was probably conceived shortly after the third Sabbath of the month of Sivan.

The Conception of Yeshua.

Now the reason that the information about John is important, is because according to Luke, Yeshua was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the sixth month of Elisabeth's pregnancy

Luke 1:24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying, 25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men. 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Note that verse 26 above refers to the sixth month of Elisabeth's pregnancy, not Elul, the sixth month of the Hebrew calendar, and this is made plain by the context of verse 24 and again in

Luke 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

Mary stayed with Elizabeth for the last 3 months of her pregnancy, until the time that John was born.

Luke 1:56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house. 57 Now Elisabeth's full time came that she should be delivered; and she brought forth a son.

Now working from the information about John's conception late in the third month, Sivan, and advancing six months, we arrive late in the 9th month of Kislev (Nov-Dec) for the time frame for the conception of Jesus. It is notable here that the first day of the Jewish festival of Hanukkah, the Festival of Lights, is celebrated on the 25th day of Kislev, and Jesus is called the light of the world (John 8:12, 9:5, 12:46). This does not appear to be a mere coincidence. In the book of John, Hanukkah is called the feast of dedication (John 10:22). Hanukkah is an eight day festival of rejoicing, celebrating deliverance from enemies by the relighting of the menorah in the rededicated Temple, which according to the story, stayed lit miraculously for eight days on only one day's supply of oil.

 

[visionary]

The Birth of John the Baptist.

Based on a conception shortly after the third Sabbath of the month of Sivan, projecting forward an average term of about 10 lunar months (40 weeks), we arrive in the month of Nisan. It would appear that John the Baptist may have been born in the middle of the month, which would coincide with Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It is interesting to note, that even today, it is customary for the Jews to set out a special goblet of wine during the Passover Seder meal, in anticipation of the arrival of Elijah that week, which is based on the prophecy of

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Yeshua identified John as the "Elijah" that the Jews had expected

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

The angel that appeared to Zacharias in the temple also indicated that John would be the expected "Elias"

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

So then, the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins on the 15th day of the 1st month, Nisan, and this is a likely date for the birth of John the Baptist, the expected "Elijah".

The Birth of Yeshua.

Since Yeshua was conceived six months after John the Baptist, and we have established a likely date for John's birth, we need only move six months farther down the Jewish calendar to arrive at a likely date for the birth of Jesus. From the 15th day of the 1st month, Nisan, we go to the 15th day of the 7th month, Tishri. And what do we find on that date? It is the festival of Tabernacles! The 15th day of Tishri begins the third and last festival of the year to which all the men of Israel were to gather in Jerusalem for Temple services. (Lev 23:34)

Immanuel.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Immanuel means "God with us". The Son of God had come to dwell with, or tabernacle on earth with His people.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot), occurs five days after the Day of Atonement, and is a festival of rejoicing and celebration of deliverance from slavery in Egypt (Leviticus 23:42-43). It is just like the Roman empire to try to thwart the Jews knowing full well that they are commanded to be in Jerusalem for three feasts a year, to pick that time to make them be in their own home town for the census. So people celebrated the Feast of Tablernacles where they are.

Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. 8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Why was there no room at the inn? Bethlehem is only about 5 miles from Jerusalem, and all the men of Israel had come to attend the festival of Tabernacles as required by the law of Moses. Every room for miles around Jerusalem would have been already taken by pilgrims, so all that Mary and Joseph could find for shelter was a stable. During Tabernacles, everyone was to live in temporary booths (Sukkot), as a memorial to Israel's pilgrimage out of Egypt - Lev. 23:42-43. The birth of the Savior, in what amounted to a temporary dwelling rather than a house, signaled the coming deliverance of God's people from slavery to sin, and their departing for the promised land, which is symbolized by Tabernacles.

Also of note is the fact that the Feast of Tabernacles is an eight day feast (Lev 23:36, 39). Why eight days? It may be because an infant was dedicated to God by performing circumcision on the eighth day after birth.

Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

So the infant Yeshua would have been circumcised on the eighth and last day of the Feast of Tabernacles, a Sabbath day. The Jews today consider this a separate festival from Tabernacles, and they call it Shemini Atzeret.

 

[visionary]

The Baptism of Jesus - The Time is Fulfilled

There is another indication in scripture as to when Jesus was born.

Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness. 13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Jesus said The time is fulfilled just after His baptism, upon emerging from 40 days in the wilderness. He then began His preaching ministry, Luke tells us at about the age of 30.

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, ...

The book of Daniel gives us the "time" or prophecy Jesus was speaking about:

DANIEL'S 70 WEEKS

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem (457 B.C.) unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks (69 weeks / 483 years, 27 A.D.): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks (69 weeks) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week (31 A.D.) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, (be crucified) ...

It is evident that by understanding this prophecy, and knowing the date of the decree when Daniel's 70 weeks began (Ezra 7, 457 B.C.), the wise men knew exactly when to look for the Christ child.

The 70th week of Daniel, a period of 7 literal years, began with "Messiah the Prince". Messiah means anointed, and Jesus was publically anointed by the Holy Spirit at His baptism, declaring him to be the Messiah, at the end of 69 weeks / 483 prophetic years, which calculates to 27 A.D. as the year of Christ's baptism. Knowing the year of Christ's baptism to be 483 years after the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C., the wisemen needed simply to subtract 30 from 483 to know the Messiah would be born 453 years after the decree. Why 30? A man had to be 30 years of age to serve in the Sanctuary / Temple (Num 4:3), and Luke says that at His baptism Jesus became about thirty. Jesus, when He turned 30, was considered to be old enough to perform the duties of a priest. Daniel 9:26-27 also tells us that the Messiah would be "cut off" (crucified) in the "midst of the (70th) week". So 3 1/2 years after His baptism, which was at the end of 69 weeks / 483 prophetic years, on Tabernacles of 27 A.D., Jesus would be crucified, precisely on 14 Nisan, Passover of 31 A.D.

 

[Alithis]

thanks - visionary a rather concise presentation to show the bible is correct and the traditions of rome are not .i'll take the word of god over the traditions of men ANY day and EVERY day .

 

[MoreCoffee]

thanks - visionary a rather concise presentation to show the bible is correct and the traditions of rome are not .i'll take the word of god over the traditions of men ANY day and EVERY day .

The truth is that a December date comes from the East rather than from Rome; but don't let the facts get in the way of a good bit of prejudicial propaganda

 

[Alithis]

I think December has ample support both biblically and historically.

BY the way, what have you got against Easter? Did you know that "easter" is the name for the celebration in English but in Latin (pascha) and Italian (pasqua) and Spanish (pascua) and Greek (Πάσχα) and in the majority of Christian lands it is called passover? Easter is a good name for it in English but if you want to call it passover fine. It's the same thing.

clearly that is simply not the case .. thus far you've presented a single out of context verse .that's the ample support for december ?..it is not .

.in contrast visionary has presented screeds of scripture al which are self supporting and harmonious with all other scripture .

 

[MoreCoffee]

clearly that is simply not the case .. thus far you've presented a single out of context verse .that's the ample support for december ?..it is not .

.in contrast visionary has presented screeds of scripture al which are self supporting and harmonious with all other scripture .

I did refer you to the annunciation and birth narratives; surely that counts as three passages in addition to the one referencing December Hanukkah festivities in Jerusalem during the earthly ministry of the Lord. That'd be a total of four passages. But who is counting

 

[visionary]

It takes a Jewish mindset, which Yeshua, Mary, Joseph, Zachariah, Elizabeth, John etc all had, to document what the Lord by appointed times foretold would happen.

 

[Ruth]

Thank you all so much for being so civil and thoughtful in your arguments. This has proved to be very interesting and even entertaining. Sorry if that is rude.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thank you all so much for being so civil and thoughtful in your arguments. This has proved to be very interesting and even entertaining. Sorry if that is rude.

I think it is entertaining in its own way too.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Tut tut apply some honesty please.
It does not say "jesus went there for the feast of dedication. "
All it says is that he was there doing what he did..teaching and healing.. At that time.

This is silly. What else would an observant Jew be doing there during the feast of dedication? Just milling about? Amazing what some don't know about their own Lord...
Sorry for the derail, I just had to vent.

 

[Alithis]

This is silly. What else would an observant Jew be doing there during the feast of dedication? Just milling about? Amazing what some don't know about their own Lord...
Sorry for the derail, I just had to vent.

well #1 if you read the scripture you'll find he was already in jerusalem .
#2 iv never said he did nt observe the feast of dedication
#3 -coffee said he observed it AND observed it as Holy -a bold and unsubstantiated statement
#4 the scripture states that .. at that time that he was in jerusalem .. "it was the feast of dedication AND it was winter .." so by that reasoning you could ssay he went to jerusalem to observe winter .. that's more sily .

so it is honest to ,not silly , to say the truth - .. the scripture does not say ,"he went to jerusalem for the express purpose of celebrating the feast of dedication" nor does it say he observed it as Holy . that would be opposed to his character which was to be doing his father's business ..not man's (the feast of dedication is not a feast appointed by God it's just a tradition .

Adding things into the text that are not there to support a preferred doctrine is not a truthful nor honest approach to the scriptures on any topic .
in this case the topic is not of high importance but if you go back and read the material which visionary posted you see there is plain and extremely strong support for his day of birth NOTbeing december 25 .
in contrast the arguments for it being december are neither clear nor strong . in fact they are extremely frail and have no scriptural backing at all .

 

[MoreCoffee]

This is silly. What else would an observant Jew be doing there during the feast of dedication? Just milling about? Amazing what some don't know about their own Lord...
Sorry for the derail, I just had to vent.

Yes it is an unsustainable proposition that the Lord would be in Jerusalem simply loitering during the feast of the dedication instead of attending to his religious duties as defined by the high priests' traditions about the feast and it is untenable mainly because the Jews were not sola scripturists but traditionalists and the Lord did in fact follow the tradition of the feast of dedication in fact the books of Moses call upon Israel to follow the traditions established by the priests and the high priests but many christians today appear to be ignorant of what Moses commanded and what is in the old covenant holy scriptures. Consider this passage:

Deuteronomy 17:8-12 (8) If you have perceived that there is among you a difficult and doubtful matter of judgment, between blood and blood, cause and cause, leprosy and leprosy, and if you will have seen that the words of the judges within your gates vary: rise up and ascend to the place which the Lord your God will choose. (9) And you shall approach the priests of the Levitical stock, and the judge, who shall be among them at that time, and you shall inquire of them, and they will reveal to you the truth of the judgment. (10) And you shall accept whatever they will say, those who preside in the place which the Lord will choose, and whatever they will teach you, (11) in accord with his law, and you shall follow their sentence. Neither shall you turn aside to the right or to the left. (12) But whoever will be arrogant, unwilling to obey the order of the priest who ministers at that time to the Lord your God, and the decree of the judge, that man shall die. And so shall you take away the evil from Israel.​

well

• #1 if you read the scripture you'll find he was already in jerusalem .
• #2 iv never said he did nt observe the feast of dedication
• #3 -coffee said he observed it AND observed it as Holy -a bold and unsubstantiated statement

You say unsubstantiated and I say that its present in the gospel according to saint John already points to the Lord observing it, and since you say "I've never said he did not observe the feast of dedication" you appear to be wanting to have it both ways; specifically you want to say he was not observing it as holy and you also want to say he was observing it or might have been observing it; but take a look at Deuteronomy 17:8-12 and see for yourself that what the priests and especially what the high priests declare as a matter at law to be accepted is in fact a matter to be observed (provided that their decision is not contrary to the Law).

• #4 the scripture states that .. at that time that he was in jerusalem .. "it was the feast of dedication AND it was winter .." so by that reasoning you could ssay he went to jerusalem to observe winter .. that's more sily .

Point #4 is absurd but since it is invented by yourself and does not represent a claim made by any of your interlocutors let's not bother with it any further than to agree that it is absurd.

so it is honest to ,not silly , to say the truth - .. the scripture does not say ,"he went to jerusalem for the express purpose of celebrating the feast of dedication" nor does it say he observed it as Holy . that would be opposed to his character which was to be doing his father's business ..not man's (the feast of dedication is not a feast appointed by God it's just a tradition .

Adding things into the text that are not there to support a preferred doctrine is not a truthful nor honest approach to the scriptures on any topic .

Just as we do not want to add to the scripture we also do not want to take away from it and since saint John makes the point that Jesus is in Jerusalem when it was the feast of the dedication; specifically saint John writes "At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; (23) it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon." (John 10:22-23 NASB)

in this case the topic is not of high importance but if you go back and read the material which visionary posted you see there is plain and extremely strong support for his day of birth NOTbeing december 25 .
in contrast the arguments for it being december are neither clear nor strong . in fact they are extremely frail and have no scriptural backing at all .

You're correct, picking December as the month of the Lord's birth is not a high stakes theological issue but it is part of an issue that you've made very high stakes; namely that tradition plays a role in the things the Lord Jesus Christ did while on Earth and that by doing what the tradition of the feast of dedication sets down as normative the Lord teaches us that tradition decreed by lawful authority acting within the bounds of holy scripture is in fact legitimate and binding for the faithful.

 

[Alithis]

Yes it is an unsustainable proposition that the Lord would be in Jerusalem simply loitering during the feast of the dedication instead of attending to his religious duties as defined by the high priests' traditions about the feast and it is untenable mainly because the Jews were not sola scripturists but traditionalists and the Lord did in fact follow the tradition of the feast of dedication in fact the books of Moses call upon Israel to follow the traditions established by the priests and the high priests but many christians today appear to be ignorant of what Moses commanded and what is in the old covenant holy scriptures. Consider this passage:

Deuteronomy 17:8-12 (8) If you have perceived that there is among you a difficult and doubtful matter of judgment, between blood and blood, cause and cause, leprosy and leprosy, and if you will have seen that the words of the judges within your gates vary: rise up and ascend to the place which the Lord your God will choose. (9) And you shall approach the priests of the Levitical stock, and the judge, who shall be among them at that time, and you shall inquire of them, and they will reveal to you the truth of the judgment. (10) And you shall accept whatever they will say, those who preside in the place which the Lord will choose, and whatever they will teach you, (11) in accord with his law, and you shall follow their sentence. Neither shall you turn aside to the right or to the left. (12) But whoever will be arrogant, unwilling to obey the order of the priest who ministers at that time to the Lord your God, and the decree of the judge, that man shall die. And so shall you take away the evil from Israel.​

You say unsubstantiated and I say that its present in the gospel according to saint John already points to the Lord observing it, and since you say "I've never said he did not observe the feast of dedication" you appear to be wanting to have it both ways; specifically you want to say he was not observing it as holy and you also want to say he was observing it or might have been observing it; but take a look at Deuteronomy 17:8-12 and see for yourself that what the priests and especially what the high priests declare as a matter at law to be accepted is in fact a matter to be observed (provided that their decision is not contrary to the Law).


Point #4 is absurd but since it is invented by yourself and does not represent a claim made by any of your interlocutors let's not bother with it any further than to agree that it is absurd.


Just as we do not want to add to the scripture we also do not want to take away from it and since saint John makes the point that Jesus is in Jerusalem when it was the feast of the dedication; specifically saint John writes "At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; (23) it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon[/U]." (John 10:22-23 NASB)



You're correct, picking December as the month of the Lord's birth is not a high stakes theological issue but it is part of an issue that you've made very high stakes; namely that tradition plays a role in the things the Lord Jesus Christ did while on Earth and that by doing what the tradition of the feast of dedication sets down as normative the Lord teaches us that tradition decreed by lawful authority acting within the bounds of holy scripture is in fact legitimate and binding for the faithful.

umm yeah .. the lord jesus was walking around the temple complex on a number of occasions it seems .. so that means nothing on this topic .
sorry but visionary has provided a very detailed and fully scriptural presentation as to why december the 25 is incorrect .. and your still quibbling over whether he observed hanukkah. and that's the total sum of your scriptural support for december and it doesn't even say what your trying to make it say .. but you hold to your traditions over the word of god if that's what your determined to do.. i will follow the lord jesus .. not rome . the moment i place the traditions of created men over the word of the living God i make the traditions of men idolatry . -not for me thanks

 

[visionary]

umm yeah .. the lord jesus was walking around the temple complex on a number of occasions it seems .. so that means nothing on this topic .
sorry but visionary has provided a very detailed and fully scriptural presentation as to why december the 25 is incorrect .. and your still quibbling over whether he observed hanukkah. and that's the total sum of your scriptural support for december and it doesn't even say what your trying to make it say .. but you hold to your traditions over the word of god if that's what your determined to do.. i will follow the lord jesus .. not rome . the moment i place the traditions of created men over the word of the living God i make the traditions of men idolatry . -not for me thanks

The feast of dedication came about not because of some command of God but because the Macabees regained control of the temple. It is known as the Maccabean Revolt. They found one day's worth of oil and as the story goes it burned for eight days until they were able to make another "holy" batch.

The Jews celebrate this victory with the eight days of candle lighting. Strange that they use has nine candles spots, when the Menorah itself has seven. This oil burns in the Menorah, the symbolic light of the Holy Spirit upon the bread of life, and altar of incense, where prayers are offered in the vision of John, the Revelator.

It has nothing to do with Yeshua's birth. It just happens in and around Christmas time depending on the year. As to the fact that Yeshua was there, I can say this that He took advantage of the moment and told the crowds that He is the light of the world. Chanukka is also known as the "Feast of Lights," and Yeshua is John 8:12 "the light of the world."

The Feast is therefore an appropriate setting for the question of the people: "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly." If it was done back then, would Yeshua do it again but this time for the nation of Israel out of the clutches of Rome.

 

[pinacled]

It is a feast that the Lord Jesus Christ observed as holy.

I don't recall any mention of this before now.