Communion of the Saints

[MoreCoffee]

The holy scriptures teach that the saints worship God, sing hymns, play instruments, make requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offer prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).

Those verses do not mention anyone in Heaven praying FOR the Saints still living.

The verses teach that the saints in heaven worship God, sing hymns, play instruments[SUP]1[/SUP], make requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom[SUP]2[/SUP], and offer prayers for the saints on earth[SUP]3[/SUP].

Revelation 4:9-11 And while those living creatures were giving glory and honour and blessings to the One sitting upon the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fell prostrate before the One sitting upon the throne, and they adored him who lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11 "You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honour and power. For you have created all things, and they became and were created because of your will.[SUP]1[/SUP]"

Revelation 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having stringed instruments[SUP]1[/SUP], as well as golden bowls full of fragrances, which are the prayers of the saints[SUP]3[/SUP]. The golden bowls contain the prayers of the saints which the twenty four elders offer to God. Offering somebody else's prayers to God is offering their prayers "for" them, that is, on their behalf.

Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw, under the altar, the souls of those who had been slain because of the Word of God and because of the testimony that they held. 10 And they were crying out with a loud voice, saying: "How long, O Holy and True Lord, will you not judge and not vindicate our blood against those who dwell upon the earth?[SUP]2[/SUP]" 11 And white robes were given to each of them. And they were told that they should rest for a brief time, until their fellow servants and their brothers, who were to be slain even as they were slain, would be completed.

And another passage mentioned in my post.

Revelation 8:1-5 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw seven Angels standing in the sight of God. And seven trumpets were given to them. 3 And another Angel approached, and he stood before the altar, holding a golden censer. And much incense was given to him, so that he might offer upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God, the prayers of all the saints. 4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended, in the presence of God, from the hand of the Angel. 5 And the Angel received the golden censer, and he filled it from the fire of the altar, and he cast it down upon the earth, and there were thunders and voices and lightnings and a great earthquake.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Isaiah 8:19 When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Saints of God are not "mediums and necromancers" (ESV)
Psychics calling on your Aunt Betsy? Well...

 

[MennoSota]

The verses teach that the saints in heaven worship God, sing hymns, play instruments[SUP]1[/SUP], make requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom[SUP]2[/SUP], and offer prayers for the saints on earth[SUP]3[/SUP].

Revelation 4:9-11 And while those living creatures were giving glory and honour and blessings to the One sitting upon the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fell prostrate before the One sitting upon the throne, and they adored him who lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11 "You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honour and power. For you have created all things, and they became and were created because of your will.[SUP]1[/SUP]"

Revelation 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having stringed instruments[SUP]1[/SUP], as well as golden bowls full of fragrances, which are the prayers of the saints[SUP]3[/SUP]. The golden bowls contain the prayers of the saints which the twenty four elders offer to God. Offering somebody else's prayers to God is offering their prayers "for" them, that is, on their behalf.

Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw, under the altar, the souls of those who had been slain because of the Word of God and because of the testimony that they held. 10 And they were crying out with a loud voice, saying: "How long, O Holy and True Lord, will you not judge and not vindicate our blood against those who dwell upon the earth?[SUP]2[/SUP]" 11 And white robes were given to each of them. And they were told that they should rest for a brief time, until their fellow servants and their brothers, who were to be slain even as they were slain, would be completed.

And another passage mentioned in my post.

Revelation 8:1-5 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw seven Angels standing in the sight of God. And seven trumpets were given to them. 3 And another Angel approached, and he stood before the altar, holding a golden censer. And much incense was given to him, so that he might offer upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God, the prayers of all the saints. 4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended, in the presence of God, from the hand of the Angel. 5 And the Angel received the golden censer, and he filled it from the fire of the altar, and he cast it down upon the earth, and there were thunders and voices and lightnings and a great earthquake.

Where is the correlation in those passages so that we should be compelled to pray to the 24 elders instead of to God?

 

[Andrew]

The verses teach that the saints in heaven worship God, sing hymns, play instruments[SUP]1[/SUP], make requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom[SUP]2[/SUP], and offer prayers for the saints on earth[SUP]3[/SUP].

Revelation 4:9-11 And while those living creatures were giving glory and honour and blessings to the One sitting upon the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fell prostrate before the One sitting upon the throne, and they adored him who lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11 "You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honour and power. For you have created all things, and they became and were created because of your will.[SUP]1[/SUP]"

Revelation 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having stringed instruments[SUP]1[/SUP], as well as golden bowls full of fragrances, which are the prayers of the saints[SUP]3[/SUP]. The golden bowls contain the prayers of the saints which the twenty four elders offer to God. Offering somebody else's prayers to God is offering their prayers "for" them, that is, on their behalf.

Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw, under the altar, the souls of those who had been slain because of the Word of God and because of the testimony that they held. 10 And they were crying out with a loud voice, saying: "How long, O Holy and True Lord, will you not judge and not vindicate our blood against those who dwell upon the earth?[SUP]2[/SUP]" 11 And white robes were given to each of them. And they were told that they should rest for a brief time, until their fellow servants and their brothers, who were to be slain even as they were slain, would be completed.

And another passage mentioned in my post.

Revelation 8:1-5 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw seven Angels standing in the sight of God. And seven trumpets were given to them. 3 And another Angel approached, and he stood before the altar, holding a golden censer. And much incense was given to him, so that he might offer upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God, the prayers of all the saints. 4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended, in the presence of God, from the hand of the Angel. 5 And the Angel received the golden censer, and he filled it from the fire of the altar, and he cast it down upon the earth, and there were thunders and voices and lightnings and a great earthquake.

A respectful approach MC
When I think about incense billowing up to God I am reminded of the burnt offerings Noah offered the Lord and how he delighted in it, the prayers of Martyred Saints is likened to it. If it makes sense to you that this means that the Saints carry our prayers to God well more power to you, I really don't have a problem with that and it's getting exhausting to argue something that you hold sacred... God sends messengers and no one worships these messengers, we all worship God alone, likewise no one worships Mary or Saints and Catholics are always charged with this. Can't we all just get along?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Saints of God are not "mediums and necromancers" (ESV)
Psychics calling on your Aunt Betsy? Well...

I do not understand the confusion in Protestant ranks about the saints in heaven praying & offering the prayers of their Earthly brethren (including sisters). But it is evident that it exists. The passages in Revelation are present in Protestant bibles so I wonder why they are not heeded. It is obvious that the angels and the 24 elders (whatever they may be) offer the prayers of the saints to God and consequently have an intermediary role. There are passages from the old testament in the holy scriptures received as inspired by Catholics that also point to prophets (deceased from earthly life) who play a role in hearing and responding to the prayers of God's people. None of this is "ancestor worship" and all of it is consistent with the Lord Jesus' refutation of the Sadducee theory that there are neither spirits (angelic and human in heaven) nor a resurrection. It is as if in their haste to reject all things Catholic the early Protestants rejected a good deal of what holy scripture says. And reading the posts written by the recent followers of those Protestant founders the same spirit of rejection is obvious and might even be stronger in some.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Can't we all just get along?

Evidently not. But what can one say? The holy scriptures say what they say and if some prefer to interpret them into something that best suits their system of beliefs then they will do that and who can stop them here in CH?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Where is the correlation in those passages so that we should be compelled to pray to the 24 elders instead of to God?

No one compels you to pray to anybody, not even to God.

 

[MennoSota]

No one compels you to pray to anybody, not even to God.

That doesn't even remotely answer my question. My goodness.
Where is the correlation in those passages so that we should be compelled to pray to the 24 elders instead of to God?

 

[MoreCoffee]

That doesn't even remotely answer my question. My goodness.
Where is the correlation in those passages so that we should be compelled to pray to the 24 elders instead of to God?

I offer not theory about who the 24 elders are except that they are not God nor Jesus. Prayers are in their bowls held in their hands and offered to God. Make of it what you will. The passage is still there after any and every explanation is turned to it to make it mean whatever the explainer wants.

 

[MennoSota]

I offer not theory about who the 24 elders are except that they are not God nor Jesus. Prayers are in their bowls held in their hands and offered to God. Make of it what you will. The passage is still there after any and every explanation is turned to it to make it mean whatever the explainer wants.

You still don't answer the question. Where is the correlation?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Where is the correlation?

Correlation between what and what else?

 

[MennoSota]

Correlation between what and what else?

Stop being obtuse. Go back and read the past posts if you cannot grasp the problem.
It looks like you just googled "prayer" and then copied and pasted some verses as a prooftext.
You cannot show any correlation to the topic of this thread.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Stop being obtuse. Go back and read the past posts if you cannot grasp the problem.
It looks like you just googled "prayer" and then copied and pasted some verses as a prooftext.
You cannot show any correlation to the topic of this thread.

The topic is Communion of the saints and the prayers of the saints are offered to God by the angels and by the 24 elders as part of their worship of God. The correlation is obvious; the saints pray and those in heaven offer the saints' prayers to God. Those in heaven include the 24 elders, the angels, and the martyrs - who appear to offer prayers of the saints to God, likely their own prayers. It may be that you did not see the post that presented the passages or if you did then perhaps you skipped over some details. Here it is once more

The verses teach that the saints in heaven worship God, sing hymns, play instruments[SUP]1[/SUP], make requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom[SUP]2[/SUP], and offer prayers for the saints on earth[SUP]3[/SUP].

Revelation 4:9-11 And while those living creatures were giving glory and honour and blessings to the One sitting upon the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fell prostrate before the One sitting upon the throne, and they adored him who lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11 "You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honour and power. For you have created all things, and they became and were created because of your will.[SUP]1[/SUP]"

Revelation 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having stringed instruments[SUP]1[/SUP], as well as golden bowls full of fragrances, which are the prayers of the saints[SUP]3[/SUP]. The golden bowls contain the prayers of the saints which the twenty four elders offer to God. Offering somebody else's prayers to God is offering their prayers "for" them, that is, on their behalf.

Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw, under the altar, the souls of those who had been slain because of the Word of God and because of the testimony that they held. 10 And they were crying out with a loud voice, saying: "How long, O Holy and True Lord, will you not judge and not vindicate our blood against those who dwell upon the earth?[SUP]2[/SUP]" 11 And white robes were given to each of them. And they were told that they should rest for a brief time, until their fellow servants and their brothers, who were to be slain even as they were slain, would be completed.

And another passage mentioned in my post.

Revelation 8:1-5 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw seven Angels standing in the sight of God. And seven trumpets were given to them. 3 And another Angel approached, and he stood before the altar, holding a golden censer. And much incense was given to him, so that he might offer upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God, the prayers of all the saints. 4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended, in the presence of God, from the hand of the Angel. 5 And the Angel received the golden censer, and he filled it from the fire of the altar, and he cast it down upon the earth, and there were thunders and voices and lightnings and a great earthquake.​

Some have claimed that the saints in heaven "cannot hear the prayers of Earthly people" which appears to be wrong given that the 24 elders (who may well be saints, and who are evidently not God, Jesus, angels, nor any of the "creatures" described in the book of Revelation; they have apparent human form but their identity is not explained in the passage nevertheless they appear to be human beings in heaven). And some have claimed that "you should pray directly to God because you do not need anyone else to pray for you" yet the angels and the elders and the martyrs offer prayers in heaven to God which are referred to as the prayers of the saints. It is evident that the angels are not "the saints" whose prayers they offer to God and the "24 elders" are not "the saints" whose prayers they offer to God even though they may well be saints in heaven themselves and the martyrs offer their own prayer in heaven about events on earth so the martyrs - who are saints - appear to be aware of earthly events and pray about them. All this is self evident in the passages and all of it is supportive of the idea that the heavenly saints have interest in and offer prayers for the people on earth.

The communion of the saints implies that the saints in heaven and the saints on earth share communion in Christ and that they care one for the other. The saints in heaven observe what happens on earth, pray to God, and along with the angels and the 24 elders offer the prayers of the saints on earth to God. But no one compels you or anybody else to pray to the saints to ask for their intercession on your behalf or on behalf of others. You don't need to do it. If you like you can abstain from doing it all your life time on earth. It is up to you.

I believe, in brief, that

The Church is a "communion of saints": this expression refers first to the "holy things" (sancta), above all the Eucharist, by which "the unity of believers, who form one body in Christ, is both represented and brought about" (LG 3).

The term "communion of saints" refers also to the communion of "holy persons" (sancti) in Christ who "died for all," so that what each one does or suffers in and for Christ bears fruit for all.

"We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Pope Paul VI)​

 

[atpollard]

The saints praying are on earth, not in Heaven. It is OUR prayers that the elders deliver to God.

[Act 9:13, 32, 41 NASB] 13 But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem; ... 32 Now as Peter was traveling through all [those regions,] he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda. ... 41 And he gave her his hand and raised her up; and calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive.
[Act 26:10 NASB] 10 "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them.
[Rom 1:7 NASB] 7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called [as] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[Rom 8:27 NASB] 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to [the will of] God.
[Rom 12:13 NASB] 13 contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.
[Rom 15:25-26, 31 NASB] 25 but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem. ... 31 that I may be rescued from those who are disobedient in Judea, and [that] my service for Jerusalem may prove acceptable to the saints;
[Rom 16:2, 15 NASB] 2 that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well. ... 15 Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.
[1Co 1:2 NASB] 2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their [Lord] and ours:
[1Co 6:1-2 NASB] 1 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent [to] [constitute] the smallest law courts?
[1Co 14:33 NASB] 33 for God is not [a God] of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
[1Co 16:1, 15 NASB] 1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. ... 15 Now I urge you, brethren (you know the household of Stephanas, that they were the first fruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves for ministry to the saints),
[2Co 1:1 NASB] 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy [our] brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:
[2Co 8:4 NASB] 4 begging us with much urging for the favor of participation in the support of the saints,
[2Co 9:1, 12 NASB] 1 For it is superfluous for me to write to you about this ministry to the saints; ... 12 For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.
[2Co 13:13 NASB] 13 All the saints greet you.
[Eph 1:1, 15, 18 NASB] 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and [who are] faithful in Christ Jesus: ... 15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which [exists] among you and your love for all the saints, ... 18 [I pray that] the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
[Eph 2:19 NASB] 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
[Eph 3:8, 18 NASB] 8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, ... 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
[Eph 4:12 NASB] 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
[Eph 5:3 NASB] 3 But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;
[Eph 6:18 NASB] 18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,
[Phl 1:1 NASB] 1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:
[Phl 4:22 NASB] 22 All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar's household.
[Col 1:2, 4, 12, 26 NASB] 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ [who are] at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. ... 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints; ... 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. ... 26 [that is,] the mystery which has been hidden from the [past] ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
[1Th 3:13 NASB] 13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
[2Th 1:10 NASB] 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.
[1Ti 5:10 NASB] 10 having a reputation for good works; [and] if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has assisted those in distress, [and] if she has devoted herself to every good work.
[Phm 1:5 NASB] 5 because I hear of your love and of the faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the saints;

 

[MennoSota]

The topic is Communion of the saints and the prayers of the saints are offered to God by the angels and by the 24 elders as part of their worship of God. The correlation is obvious; the saints pray and those in heaven offer the saints' prayers to God. Those in heaven include the 24 elders, the angels, and the martyrs - who appear to offer prayers of the saints to God, likely their own prayers. It may be that you did not see the post that presented the passages or if you did then perhaps you skipped over some details. Here it is once more

The verses teach that the saints in heaven worship God, sing hymns, play instruments[SUP]1[/SUP], make requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom[SUP]2[/SUP], and offer prayers for the saints on earth[SUP]3[/SUP].

Revelation 4:9-11 And while those living creatures were giving glory and honour and blessings to the One sitting upon the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fell prostrate before the One sitting upon the throne, and they adored him who lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11 "You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honour and power. For you have created all things, and they became and were created because of your will.[SUP]1[/SUP]"

Revelation 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having stringed instruments[SUP]1[/SUP], as well as golden bowls full of fragrances, which are the prayers of the saints[SUP]3[/SUP]. The golden bowls contain the prayers of the saints which the twenty four elders offer to God. Offering somebody else's prayers to God is offering their prayers "for" them, that is, on their behalf.

Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw, under the altar, the souls of those who had been slain because of the Word of God and because of the testimony that they held. 10 And they were crying out with a loud voice, saying: "How long, O Holy and True Lord, will you not judge and not vindicate our blood against those who dwell upon the earth?[SUP]2[/SUP]" 11 And white robes were given to each of them. And they were told that they should rest for a brief time, until their fellow servants and their brothers, who were to be slain even as they were slain, would be completed.

And another passage mentioned in my post.

Revelation 8:1-5 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw seven Angels standing in the sight of God. And seven trumpets were given to them. 3 And another Angel approached, and he stood before the altar, holding a golden censer. And much incense was given to him, so that he might offer upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God, the prayers of all the saints. 4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended, in the presence of God, from the hand of the Angel. 5 And the Angel received the golden censer, and he filled it from the fire of the altar, and he cast it down upon the earth, and there were thunders and voices and lightnings and a great earthquake.​

Some have claimed that the saints in heaven "cannot hear the prayers of Earthly people" which appears to be wrong given that the 24 elders (who may well be saints, and who are evidently not God, Jesus, angels, nor any of the "creatures" described in the book of Revelation; they have apparent human form but their identity is not explained in the passage nevertheless they appear to be human beings in heaven). And some have claimed that "you should pray directly to God because you do not need anyone else to pray for you" yet the angels and the elders and the martyrs offer prayers in heaven to God which are referred to as the prayers of the saints. It is evident that the angels are not "the saints" whose prayers they offer to God and the "24 elders" are not "the saints" whose prayers they offer to God even though they may well be saints in heaven themselves and the martyrs offer their own prayer in heaven about events on earth so the martyrs - who are saints - appear to be aware of earthly events and pray about them. All this is self evident in the passages and all of it is supportive of the idea that the heavenly saints have interest in and offer prayers for the people on earth.

The communion of the saints implies that the saints in heaven and the saints on earth share communion in Christ and that they care one for the other. The saints in heaven observe what happens on earth, pray to God, and along with the angels and the 24 elders offer the prayers of the saints on earth to God. But no one compels you or anybody else to pray to the saints to ask for their intercession on your behalf or on behalf of others. You don't need to do it. If you like you can abstain from doing it all your life time on earth. It is up to you.

I believe, in brief, that

The Church is a "communion of saints": this expression refers first to the "holy things" (sancta), above all the Eucharist, by which "the unity of believers, who form one body in Christ, is both represented and brought about" (LG 3).

The term "communion of saints" refers also to the communion of "holy persons" (sancti) in Christ who "died for all," so that what each one does or suffers in and for Christ bears fruit for all.

"We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Pope Paul VI)​

There is no correlation regarding you praying to the people you imagine are in heaven rather than praying to God. None of the verses you cited tell us to pray to others who are in heaven other than God Himself.
I get it that your church has created an unsupported dogma, one that started in the pagan world and was co-opted by Rome, but such a dogma has no correlation with scripture as your text proves.

 

[MoreCoffee]

atpollard and MennoSota may believe whatever they like. That is their privilege. God bless.

 

[Josiah]

1. Theoretically, asking those already in heaven to pray FOR us doesn't bother me.....


2. There's ZERO indication that those in heaven hear our prayer requests so the whole issue of submitting our requests to them may well be entirely in vain.... wasted effort perhaps better spent elsewhere.


3. As a Catholic, you KNOW that LOTS of Catholics do NOT ask the saints to pray FOR them, they pray TO them (especially Mary), expecting the saint to be the reason diving help is coming. I heard LOTS of prayers - even by the pastor -directed to MARY with every indication MARY would answer it.... nothing about "please pass this on to Jesus." Catholics may CLAIM they are doing nothing more than asking some person in heaven to pass on the request but what they DO is often very different than that.


4. Here's what I was taught on this: Jesus, keeping the 4th Commandment (because He is sinless) does what His Mommy tells Him. Proof: The Miracle of Cana. So, if YOU pray to Jesus well He is not mandated to do anything about it - He may and He may not. But if MARY asks Him, He's gotta do it. So ask Mary. That's what we were told. And that was often the point of that miracle. I have an "issue" with that


.

1. What I suspect our Catholic brother [MoreCoffee] knows ... and what it seems ex-Catholics know.... is that often Catholics do not seek that the saint "passes on" the request to Jesus, are NOT simply asking some saint to pray FOR them, they are praying TO them, looking to the saint for why the prayer will be granted. It's a whole other enchilada, my brother.


2. Yes, I agree that GOD can hear our prayers (and this is confirmed in His Scriptures to us). But there is no indication that Christians in heaven can do so. PERHAPS they can and PERHAPS they can't. But we have no such indication in Scripture.


3. Yes, I agree with you that those in heaven are "alive" and so I do not agree that we are "consulting the dead." On the other hand, Scripture tells Christians to pray for each other, but I can't think of any Scripture that tells us to ASK others to do so (not that that's forbidden), so maybe (MAYBE!) those in heaven do pray for us but where is the indication that we are to ASK them to do so? Where is the indication they hear our requests?


4. IMO, part of the value of Christians praying WITH us is not that God is hard of hearing or that we needs LOTS to be praying the request, but rather this is PART of caring for each other here on Earth, when I pray for something, I CARE for that one (part of the limitation of praying for each other here; caring is hard to do on the 'net, it works best in person). As one of my Catholic teachers stressed, "When you pray right for something, you will find yourself doing what you can for them.... you may find that YOU are the one God uses to answer that prayer." That's always stuck with me... and I believe it. My grandpa in heaven may well be praying for me.... but that's ALL he can do. My wife praying for me can hug me, cry/laugh/rejoice with me, HELP me. Praying for each other is part of our loving/caring/serving each other, not simply because God is hard of hearing or won't listen unless X number of people are praying for it.


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I do not understand the confusion in Protestant ranks about the saints in heaven praying & offering the prayers of their Earthly brethren (including sisters). But it is evident that it exists. The passages in Revelation are present in Protestant bibles so I wonder why they are not heeded. It is obvious that the angels and the 24 elders (whatever they may be) offer the prayers of the saints to God and consequently have an intermediary role.

Yes, the references in Revelation you offer are in Protestant Bibles... but none of them indicate we are to ask those in heaven to pray for us or that those in heaven hear our requests. Nor do they indicate that we are to pray TO any in heaven in the sense that they answer it or their prayers are more "effectual." Your quotes simply reveal how baseless the sometime RCC practice is.




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[RichWh1]

atpollard and MennoSota may believe whatever they like. That is their privilege. God bless.

They both believe the Bible is the word of God. What do you believe?



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[MoreCoffee]

They both believe the Bible is the word of God. What do you believe?



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I believe that I will not be participating much any more.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

You still don't answer the question. Where is the correlation?

Back at ya - where is the correlation that the prayers being offered to God in those passages are those prayers offered to the 24 elders instead of God? Why does it trouble you that these elders of scripture should be making such an offering?