If Calvinism is not right, how come some people can't muster up faith?

[Arsenios]

What's "telling" is that you entirely deleted the first part of the sentence.... You just deleted the part of the verse where it says, "Jesus said to his disciples...." The verse is addressed to BELIEVERS, DISCIPLES, those WITH faith, WITH life, WITH the Holy Spirit, WITH justification..... "to his disciples" not "to the unbelievers."

Thus, your whole point is discredited.

You are simply mis-applying the verse. It has nothing to do with justification, with how dead, atheistic, enemies of God void of spiritual life, void of faith, void of the Holy Spirit, how they COME to have those things. This verse is not speaking to such and thus has nothing to do with justification, it is speaking to those WITH those things and thus is about sanctification/discipleship

To the DISCIPLES.

You simply choose to delete those words so as to apply it to an entirely different audience, and entirely different subject.
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I simply chose to agree with Christ's very words which you are ignoring -
And especially the words EI TIS THELEI - IF ANY IS WILLING...

You have re-written the Bible to say "If any OF YOU is willing..."

For my part, I have generally tried not to re-write the Bible according to my presuppositions...

You see, the verse clearly states that it is one's willingness, one's desire, to follow Christ that leads to his willingness to deny himself and follow Christ...

But you disagree with the Bible...

You insist that a person must already be saved in order that he even have such a desire... [Narrow Justification]

Which the Bible here clearly does not say...

Yet you insist that it does...

So we disagree...

Nothing new in that!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The verse says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The word gift is not in the verse. No mention of giving is in the verse. If you want to believe that God gives faith then you'll need to find a different verse for that purpose.

It takes a great deal of faith to build a boat, or even a chicken coop...

One has a need, then a vision, then a plan, then purchases lumber and fasteners and supplies, all for something not even visible...

It is one's faith that is the substance, the basis, for what is not visible...

And indeed, it is the evidence for the reality of what cannot yet be seen...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

I simply chose to agree with Christ's very words which you are ignoring -

No. You chose to DELETE some words. You chose to EVADE that these are words spoken to His DISCIPLES. Those WITH faith, WITH spiritual life, WITH the Holy Spirit (and thus, justification). You TRIED to apply words Jesus said to one group to an entirely different group. The text does NOT say, "Jesus said to the unbelievers....." It says "Jesus said to His DISCIPLES."

The text is not about justification, it's about discipleship.

For my part, I have generally tried not to re-write the Bible according to my presuppositions...

DELETING words and therefore misapplying them to a whole other issue is re-writing the Bible.





.... thus the inappropriateness of what you did, simply deleting "Jesus said to his DISCIPLES" and replaced it with "Jesus said to unbelievers."

So we disagree...

I realize that. I hold that Jesus is the Savior (not me or you).



Now, back to the issue of TULIP .





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[Lamb]

It takes a great deal of faith to build a boat, or even a chicken coop...

One has a need, then a vision, then a plan, then purchases lumber and fasteners and supplies, all for something not even visible...

It is one's faith that is the substance, the basis, for what is not visible...

And indeed, it is the evidence for the reality of what cannot yet be seen...


Arsenios

It's the faith that causes the boat to be built. Building a boat does not cause faith to happen.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's the faith that causes the boat to be built. Building a boat does not cause faith to happen.

Both your reply and Arsenios' comment miss the point in Hebrews 11:1. The passage is not about building boats or any other material thing. The passage is about God and his promises being received, believed, and acted upon because it is God who backs it up. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The faithful hope in God, they act upon their hope in God and according to the holy scriptures they will receive what he promises to them. Saint Paul expressed the idea in his letter to the Roman Christians saying We must be content to hope that we shall be saved - our salvation is not in sight, we should not have to be hoping for it if it were - but as I say, we must hope to be saved since we are not saved yet - it is something we must wait for with patience. the faithful know that their salvation is not yet visible so they hope for it trusting the one who promised it and believing that he will fulfil his promises to them. It is in this sense that faith is the substance of things hoped for. And faith is the evidence of things that are not seen; specifically, the faithful, by their faith, give testimony to God's promises and to God's goodness and this testimony is evidence of what cannot be seen with earthly eyes but that will be seen in the last day when Christ returns to judge the living and the dead rewarding those who believed him and obeyed his commands and cutting off those who rejected him, ignored him, or otherwise despised his promises.

 

[Lamb]

Both your reply and Arsenios' comment miss the point in Hebrews 11:1. The passage is not about building boats or any other material thing. The passage is about God and his promises being received, believed, and acted upon because it is God who backs it up. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The faithful hope in God, they act upon their hope in God and according to the holy scriptures they will receive what he promises to them. Saint Paul expressed the idea in his letter to the Roman Christians saying We must be content to hope that we shall be saved - our salvation is not in sight, we should not have to be hoping for it if it were - but as I say, we must hope to be saved since we are not saved yet - it is something we must wait for with patience. the faithful know that their salvation is not yet visible so they hope for it trusting the one who promised it and believing that he will fulfil his promises to them. It is in this sense that hope is the substance of things hoped for. And faith is the evidence of things that are not seen; specifically, the faithful, by their faith, give testimony to God's promises and to God's goodness and this testimony is evidence of what cannot be seen with earthly eyes but that will be seen in the last day when Christ returns to judge the living and the dead rewarding those who believed him and obeyed his commands and cutting off those who rejected him, ignored him, or otherwise despised his promises.

Faith is given to us by God and then we respond. Non-believers do not have faith so God does not see what they do as "good" no matter how good man might think it is. That's why faith is first given by God as a gift and then we do the things God has planned for us...good works, bear fruit. What is hoped for is that God is true to His promise in regards to our Savior and the forgiveness of our sins which was done at the cross so that we will have resurrection. That is the hope. Not that we're good enough.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Only faith can guarantee the blessings that we hope for or prove the existence of the realities that at present remain unseen. (Hebrews 11:1)

Clearly the verse is not about faith being a gift (which is it) nor about human merit because humans have faith - faith is not being discussed as meritorious. The passage is about what faith is. It gives a kind of definition for the word. All of chapter eleven in Hebrews is a commendation and recommendation of faith, which is the substance of things hoped for, giving as it were a substance in our minds to such things as we are in hope of receiving and in expectation of receiving in the hereafter, and making them present to us before they come to pass. --- It is also a sure conviction of things that are not yet visible. For when God has revealed things, and we believe them upon the divine and infallible authority of the revealer, we have a greater certainty of them than any earthly physical demonstration can afford us. By this virtue of faith, the fathers in the faith of old, our forefathers, obtained a testimony from God that their actions were pleasing to him.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Both your reply and Arsenios' comment miss the point in Hebrews 11:1. The passage is not about building boats or any other material thing. The passage is about God and his promises being received, believed, and acted upon because it is God who backs it up. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The faithful hope in God, they act upon their hope in God and according to the holy scriptures they will receive what he promises to them. Saint Paul expressed the idea in his letter to the Roman Christians saying We must be content to hope that we shall be saved - our salvation is not in sight, we should not have to be hoping for it if it were - but as I say, we must hope to be saved since we are not saved yet - it is something we must wait for with patience. the faithful know that their salvation is not yet visible so they hope for it trusting the one who promised it and believing that he will fulfil his promises to them. It is in this sense that faith is the substance of things hoped for. And faith is the evidence of things that are not seen; specifically, the faithful, by their faith, give testimony to God's promises and to God's goodness and this testimony is evidence of what cannot be seen with earthly eyes but that will be seen in the last day when Christ returns to judge the living and the dead rewarding those who believed him and obeyed his commands and cutting off those who rejected him, ignored him, or otherwise despised his promises.

Faith is given to us by God and then we respond. Non-believers do not have faith so God does not see what they do as "good" no matter how good man might think it is. That's why faith is first given by God as a gift and then we do the things God has planned for us...good works, bear fruit. What is hoped for is that God is true to His promise in regards to our Savior and the forgiveness of our sins which was done at the cross so that we will have resurrection. That is the hope. Not that we're good enough.

The lectionary has Hebrews 11:1 written thus Only faith can guarantee the blessings that we hope for or prove the existence of the realities that at present remain unseen.

And it is clear the verse is not about faith being a gift (which is it) nor about human faith being meritorious - faith is not being discussed as meritorious in Hebrews chapter eleven. The passage is about what faith is. It gives a kind of definition for the word. All of chapter eleven in Hebrews is a commendation and recommendation of faith, which is the substance of things hoped for, giving as it were a substance in our minds to such things as we are in hope of receiving and in expectation of receiving in the hereafter, and making them present to us before they come to pass. It is also a sure conviction of things that are not yet visible. For when God has revealed things, and we believe them upon the divine and infallible authority of the revealer, we have a greater certainty of them than any earthly physical demonstration can afford us. By this virtue of faith, the fathers in the faith of old, our forefathers, obtained a testimony from God that their actions were pleasing to him.

MennoSota posted (in post #22) in this thread a reference to Hebrews 11:1 as proof that faith is a gift from God, yet the verse and the whole chapter make no mention of faith as a gift from God nor is there any mention of giving faith to human beings. I do not contend that faith is not given to humanity by God but that is not the lesson of Hebrews chapter eleven.

 

[Arsenios]

It's the faith that causes the boat to be built.

Indeed - without the building of the boat, the boat does not get built...

Building a boat does not cause faith to happen.

Building the boat IS the faith happening...
Without the building, the faith is dead...
The building of it is evidence of a boat unseen (not yet visible)...
Indeed, it is the basis of one's hope to see/have the unseen boat...

You see, because faith without works is dead, the Faith is a Work...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Both your reply and Arsenios' comment miss the point in Hebrews 11:1.

Well it would not be the first time for me to do such a thing...

The passage is not about building boats or any other material thing.

Agreed - It is about Faith as a universal, and dare I add, UNSEEN thing...
Or is it all that unseen?
For if it is a work, it can be seen...
Yet it's hope is not visible

The passage is about God and his promises being received, believed, and acted upon because it is God who backs it up.

That is what it is referring to here by Paul, but he starts out with a very universal definition that also applies to any unseen thing for the sake of which one takes action.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

This is so universal that it even applies to chicken coops...

The faithful hope in God, they act upon their hope in God and according to the holy scriptures they will receive what he promises to them. Saint Paul expressed the idea in his letter to the Roman Christians saying We must be content to hope that we shall be saved - our salvation is not in sight, we should not have to be hoping for it if it were - but as I say, we must hope to be saved since we are not saved yet - it is something we must wait for with patience. the faithful know that their salvation is not yet visible so they hope for it trusting the one who promised it and believing that he will fulfil his promises to them. It is in this sense that faith is the substance of things hoped for. And faith is the evidence of things that are not seen; specifically, the faithful, by their faith, give testimony to God's promises and to God's goodness and this testimony is evidence of what cannot be seen with earthly eyes but that will be seen in the last day when Christ returns to judge the living and the dead rewarding those who believed him and obeyed his commands and cutting off those who rejected him, ignored him, or otherwise despised his promises.

This is why the term faith is used...


Arsenios

 

[atpollard]

Well it would not be the first time for me to do such a thing...

That was pretty funny.:chairfall:

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I can doubt you're claims, refuse to believe them, or believe them.

Then why can't I?

 

[YourTruthGod]

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

The word was about the message and also about all the miracles that Jesus and his apostles did. Many people had believed and had faith because of the miracles.

 

[MennoSota]

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

The word was about the message and also about all the miracles that Jesus and his apostles did. Many people had believed and had faith because of the miracles.

Our faith comes as a gift from God, not of ourselves so that no one can boast.
Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Dead men cannot hear.

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

 

[Josiah]

Faith is the gift of God....

Ephesians 2:8

2 Peter 1:1

Romans 12:3

Acts 3:16

Philippians 1:29

Ephesians 2:1

1 Corinthians 12:3

1 Corinthians 2:14




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[Lucian Hodoboc]

Is there a way in which we can persuade God to offer it to us quicker? Or do we just have to wait for it indefinitely and hope that it will come sometime in this lifetime?

 

[Josiah]

Is there a way in which we can persuade God to offer it to us quicker? Or do we just have to wait for it indefinitely and hope that it will come sometime in this lifetime?

The dead atheistic sinner doesn't seek it.... doesn't want it.... can't ask for it.... doesn't hold it even exists.

GOD gives life (physical and spiritual).... it is "the free gift of God"

If someone "wants it" likely he HAS it. I recall a worship service I attended at a Southern Baptist mega church. Of course, they had an "altar call" at the end of things.... and while the musicians were playing their "come on down" music, the pastor was explaining softly.... "If you feel your heart beating.... if your hands are sweaty.... if you wonder what you should do.... it is the FAITH GOD HAS GIVEN YOU seeking to be revealed..." Billy Graham (another southern Baptist) explained that God chooses us, we don't choose HIM but (he opinioned) it is important that we publicly acknowledge that choice (so he said in "Decision" magazine). No one is even capable to saying the words "Jesus is Lord" with any meaning unless the Holy Spirit empowers him to do so.

Jesus is the Savior. That's really the foundation, the keystone of the Christian religion. It means Jesus does the saving. Is our faith part of that? Yes. So that faith is the work of God - exactly as the Bible says. Jesus is not just a "possibility maker" who saves no one, He is not just a door opener who saves no one, He is not just an announcer or teacher of inspiration... he is not just a HELPER that saves no one from nothing (each doing the very thing that saves themselves). Jesus saves.

 

[Albion]

Faith in the form of a feeling, that is. There are people who will engage in religious activities and strive to live according to the teachings of Christianity (attend church, go to confession, read The Bible, do charitable work, even pray), but constantly doubt (in their minds) their beliefs about the existence of God, The Trinity, Jesus etc.

Theologically speaking, doubt is not a sin or evidence of faithlessness--and it is no more applicable to Calvinism than to other varieties of Christianity.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

No one is even capable to saying the words "Jesus is Lord" with any meaning

Define "with any meaning", please. If someone says "Jesus is Lord", but in their heart they want to believe it, but they doubt, do they have faith or is it a meaningless statement?

 

[Josiah]

Define "with any meaning", please. If someone says "Jesus is Lord", but in their heart they want to believe it, but they doubt, do they have faith or is it a meaningless statement?

AGAIN, faith = trust/reliance. It's a function of the heart/soul and it is the gift of God. Yes, one can have faith AND intellectual/cognative "doubts" (in fact, I suspect this is nearly always the reality). They are not mutually exclusive.

And as Albion noted above, the idea that Jesus is the Savior and that faith is a divine gift is NOT a "Calvinist" view anymore than the Trinity is a Calvinist view - yes Calvinists affirm it but then most Christians do. The issue here is who gives life: the dead one to himself or God? Who saves? Each unregenerate, dead, atheistic person for himself (meaning Jesus saves no one and is not the Savior, self is) or is God the savior? Who saves whom? Calvinists (and a LOT more than Calvinists) believe that Jesus is the Savior. And thus Jesus does the saving. Including the giving of faith ("... the free gift of God").


Think of Lazarus. DEAD, lifeless, stinking Larzarus in the tomb. Jesus calls him.... but did Larzarus rise himself from the dead? Did dead, stinking Lazarus perform a miracle on himself? No. Jesus raised him! Jesus gave him life! A free gift! A miracle! THEREFORE Lazarus could come out of that tomb.... and praise Jesus, who ALONE saved him. Lazarus did not praise himself..... he did not credit himself.... he did not pat himself on the back and insist, "While I was dead, I did the right thing - I heard Jesus' call and was obedient and thus I saved myself, glory be to ME." Nope.




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