God still chooses.

[YourTruthGod]

That's not biblical. Not all humans have faith. You are stating your own opinion with no scripture.

Not all humans have faith; I did not mean for you to take it that way. All have the capability to have faith.

Faith comes from hearing about God.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Mark 4:24“Consider carefully what you hear,” he continued. “With the measure you use, it will be measured to you—and even more. 25Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.”

Faith comes from hearing.

 

[JPPT1974]

He never makes mistakes. He always chooses no matter what. He planned our lives before we could ever do that. Or this! He made us.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: 'As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

 

[MennoSota]

Not all humans have faith; I did not mean for you to take it that way. All have the capability to have faith.

Faith comes from hearing about God.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Mark 4:24“Consider carefully what you hear,” he continued. “With the measure you use, it will be measured to you—and even more. 25Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.”

Faith comes from hearing.

Neither of these verses teach what you claim. Humans cannot manufacture faith. Their capacity is zero. The cannot have faith for they cannot seek God.
God must make a person alive with Christ. God must gift a human with faith. This is an act of grace on God's part so that no human can boast. (Ephesians 2:1-10)
Unless God chooses to act, humans will not have faith. They will not believe.

 

[MennoSota]

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: 'As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

The last two words should tell you something important.
Is Israel chosen or not?
Second, this verse is referring to physical death. Evil actions often result in physical death.
Ezekiel is a fascinating book. Read it and study it from cover to cover. Plucking one verse out of context is foolishness.

 

[Arsenios]

You realize that Peter is speaking to the elect.

Congratulations!

Yet to be fair, I must add that my hindsight is 20-20 just like yours...

And to continue in this new fairness doctrine, Jesus was only speaking to the elect too, right?

He was speaking only to the chosen and elect people of God, the Jews...

And they all KNEW they were the chosen people of God, didn't they...

"Many are Called... Few are chosen..." is Biblical...

As is the command: "Make your election sure..."

Because they are the elect, God will bring His elect to repentance.

Didn't work out all that well for Judas and for most of God's elect, the Jews, did it?

Arsenios, you keep putting the cart before the horse and thus negating grace.

If you do not make straight the Way of the Lord in your own soul, God's Grace will not abide there...

If you try to fulfill the Grace of God in your flesh, that Grace will depart...

It amazes me how wrong the EOC is on this issue.

And you are not all that easily amazed either, are you?

I didn't realize how legalistic and empty of grace your church is.

Ya gotta walk the talk, my Brother...

And know that God exists and rewards those seeking Him...

[/quote]You have enlightened me.[/QUOTE]

You are very kind to say so...

I mean...

Garsh!


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Of course Menno Simons is not a follower of Calvin. He is the leader of Mennonites. Make the connection here, based upon my Arminian background...

Soooo...let's see if we have this right. We are supposed to think that an adherent of Menno's theology might be inclined to use a picture of Menno for his avatar. Wow. At last that mystery is solved!

 

[Arsenios]

2 Peter 1:1
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours
by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

There is literally nothing stated regarding the need to repent first.
In fact, it is the opposite.
The elect obtained faith by "the righteousness" of God the Son, Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:1 - KJV – Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
to them that have obtained like precious faith with us
through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Peter 1:1 - BYZ –
συμεων πετρος δουλος και αποστολος ιησου χριστου
Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ

τοις ισοτιμον ημιν λαχουσιν
to those equal in honor to us having obtained by lot

πιστιν εν δικαιοσυνη του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου
faith in Righteousness of the God of us and Savior Jesus Christ.

So what the Greek tells us is not what translators tell us which is what you tell us -
eg That this faith is BY the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ...
Instead, the text states that this faith is IN the Righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ...

The IN here is not the IN otherwise translated as IN in much of Englishdom - That IN is from EIS, not EN...

So if you have faith IN God, you have faith EIS God, faith INTO God...

Showing movement into, and such faith moves its possessor into God, which means 'is acceptable to God'...

But here, EN is used, and it designates location - eg "within"...

So that it states that by lot they have received faith within the Righteousness of Christ...

Which argues somewhat in favor of your understanding, fwiw...

Yet more broadly, this indicates the Gift of God that Apostolic Faith can be and is...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Congratulations!

Yet to be fair, I must add that my hindsight is 20-20 just like yours...

And to continue in this new fairness doctrine, Jesus was only speaking to the elect too, right?

He was speaking only to the chosen and elect people of God, the Jews...

And they all KNEW they were the chosen people of God, didn't they...

"Many are Called... Few are chosen..." is Biblical...

As is the command: "Make your election sure..."



Didn't work out all that well for Judas and for most of God's elect, the Jews, did it?



If you do not make straight the Way of the Lord in your own soul, God's Grace will not abide there...

If you try to fulfill the Grace of God in your flesh, that Grace will depart...



And you are not all that easily amazed either, are you?



Ya gotta walk the talk, my Brother...

And know that God exists and rewards those seeking Him...

You have enlightened me.[/QUOTE]

You are very kind to say so...

I mean...

Garsh!


Arsenios[/QUOTE]

The chosen people are those of the promise. They will respond to their Father, the one who makes them alive with Christ.
This is not a "hindsight" issue. This is a fact given to us by the word if God.
You gotta walk the talk, brother, and know that only those whom God has chosen will seek Him. The others will seek self-interest and self-righteousness. Where do you stand, Arsenios?
Brother, you insist on saving yourself by your self-righteous works. I fear it will not end well for you and you will be perplexed as to the reason why. Brother, your filthy rags will not meet the standard God has set for righteousness.

 

[MennoSota]

Soooo...let's see if we have this right. We are supposed to think that an adherent of Menno's theology might be inclined to use a picture of Menno for his avatar. Wow. At last that mystery is solved!

No one is forcing you to think anything. My past is in the Mennonite community. I live in Minnesota. Is this too complicated for you?

 

[MennoSota]

2 Peter 1:1 - KJV – Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
to them that have obtained like precious faith with us
through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Peter 1:1 - BYZ –
συμεων πετρος δουλος και αποστολος ιησου χριστου
Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ

τοις ισοτιμον ημιν λαχουσιν
to those equal in honor to us having obtained by lot

πιστιν εν δικαιοσυνη του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου
faith in Righteousness of the God of us and Savior Jesus Christ.

So what the Greek tells us is not what translators tell us which is what you tell us -
eg That this faith is BY the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ...
Instead, the text states that this faith is IN the Righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ...

The IN here is not the IN otherwise translated as IN in much of Englishdom - That IN is from EIS, not EN...

So if you have faith IN God, you have faith EIS God, faith INTO God...

Showing movement into, and such faith moves its possessor into God, which means 'is acceptable to God'...

But here, EN is used, and it designates location - eg "within"...

So that it states that by lot they have received faith within the Righteousness of Christ...

Which argues somewhat in favor of your understanding, fwiw...

Yet more broadly, this indicates the Gift of God that Apostolic Faith can be and is...


Arsenios

Arsenios, I see your attempt to pretzel the text.
The text reveals God's Sovereign choice in giving faith. Twist, turn, reverse pivot all you want...it still remains that the audience Peter is addressing is saved by God's gracious choice and given faith as a gift.
Sorry, dear sir, you cannot attain salvation by your merited "good" works.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Neither of these verses teach what you claim. Humans cannot manufacture faith.

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'

Their capacity is zero. The cannot have faith for they cannot seek God.

We can seek God, and are told to do so.

God must make a person alive with Christ. God must gift a human with faith. This is an act of grace on God's part so that no human can boast. (Ephesians 2:1-10)
Unless God chooses to act, humans will not have faith. They will not believe.

The scripture you referenced about being dead in our sins, it is about the Gentiles who did not do the purification/ceremonial works of the law which dealt with their sin nature. The Jews used to clean themselves and atone for their souls by doing the purification works; but the Gentiles were dead in their sins because they didn't do the purification works.
When God allowed the Gentiles to be saved through Jesus, Jesus saved them and didn't make them get circumcised in the flesh; he saved them in their dead in sin state.

 

[YourTruthGod]

The last two words should tell you something important.
Is Israel chosen or not?
Second, this verse is referring to physical death. Evil actions often result in physical death.
Ezekiel is a fascinating book. Read it and study it from cover to cover. Plucking one verse out of context is foolishness.

God wants all to repent of their sins and live. When John the baptizer came, he prepared the way for Jesus by having the Jews repent of their sins, or the Savior would not have came.

Not all Jews repented, but a remnant of people did.

Mark 1:3 "a voice of one calling in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'"

4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins

 

[YourTruthGod]

The chosen people are those of the promise. They will respond to their Father, the one who makes them alive with Christ.
This is not a "hindsight" issue. This is a fact given to us by the word if God.
You gotta walk the talk, brother, and know that only those whom God has chosen will seek Him. The others will seek self-interest and self-righteousness. Where do you stand, Arsenios?

Jesus was coming to make a New Covenant, and this New Covenant would be based on faith that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing instead of the Jews having to clean themselves by doing the purification works of the law.
The Jews who did not already have faith in God were cut off and hardened so that while Jesus walked the earth the only Jews that could be saved were those who already belonged to God by faith; they belonged to God and now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's. Jesus said he would not lose one that God gave him.
Jesus also said that when he is crucified, then all people could come to him, even the Jews who were cut off.

Brother, you insist on saving yourself by your self-righteous works. I fear it will not end well for you and you will be perplexed as to the reason why.

Obeying Jesus is Spirit and life.

John 8:51 I tell you the solemn truth, if anyone obeys my teaching, he will never see death."

Brother, your filthy rags will not meet the standard God has set for righteousness.

It is never ever a filthy rag to obey Jesus.
The filthy rag scripture is because the Jews had to do a righteous act by giving a blood sacrifice for their sins, but they were not really sorry for their sins so it made their blood offering like a throw away blood offering from a menstrual rag.

 

[MennoSota]

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

No
Atheists read the Bible, Hindus read the Bible, Muslims read the Bible, etc., but only the elect receive faith. It is a gift from God so that no one can boast.

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'

Context, context, context

We can seek God, and are told to do so.

The elect can seek God. They are told so. Those who are dead in their trespasses and sins cannot. Read Romans 3.

The scripture you referenced about being dead in our sins, it is about the Gentiles who did not do the purification/ceremonial works of the law which dealt with their sin nature.

No. It's about all humanity being dead in their trespasses and sins.

The Jews used to clean themselves and atone for their souls by doing the purification works; but the Gentiles were dead in their sins because they didn't do the purification works.
When God allowed the Gentiles to be saved through Jesus, Jesus saved them and didn't make them get circumcised in the flesh; he saved them in their dead in sin state.

The Jews are equally dead in their trespasses and sins. No ceremony is going to make them righteous. All our righteousness is as filthy rags.
There was no "allowing" someone to be made alive with Christ. God had to "will" them to be made alive with Christ.
The elect are called to preach the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5) God takes that message and causes those (not yet adopted, but destined for adoption) whom he has chosen to be made alive with Christ, have faith, and repent of sins.
There is no Jew nor Gentile. There is only those who are in Christ Jesus...made alive with Christ by God's will according to His grace.

You strike me as a possible Hebrew Roots member or Church of God.

 

[MennoSota]

God wants all to repent of their sins and live.

If God willed it, then it would happen. The Sovereign King does not will all to be pardoned and redeemed. He is not obligated to do so.

When John the baptizer came, he prepared the way for Jesus by having the Jews repent of their sins, or the Savior would not have came.

This was not repentance unto salvation.
John's repentance was the same call as Jonah's call to Ninevah.

Not all Jews repented, but a remnant of people did.

The remnant are the elect, whom God chose to give faith

Mark 1:3 "a voice of one calling in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'"

Nice verse. No relevance to our conversation.

4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins

Not eternal life. Only temporary covering in accordance with the Mosaic Law.

Why are you arguing legalism as the means of salvation?

 

[Albion]

No one is forcing you to think anything. My past is in the Mennonite community. I live in Minnesota. Is this too complicated for you?

A sense of humor would do you a lot of good. Or maybe not, being that having one would get your Mennonite cult membership card revoked. :disgonbegood:

 

[MennoSota]

Jesus was coming to make a New Covenant, and this New Covenant would be based on faith that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing instead of the Jews having to clean themselves by doing the purification works of the law.
The Jews who did not already have faith in God were cut off and hardened so that while Jesus walked the earth the only Jews that could be saved were those who already belonged to God by faith; they belonged to God and now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's. Jesus said he would not lose one that God gave him.
Jesus also said that when he is crucified, then all people could come to him, even the Jews who were cut off.

A covenant is a legal agreement between two parties. God made the covenant between himself and the elect.

Obeying Jesus is Spirit and life.

Only the elect can obey. The rest are in outright rebellion. Hostile to God.

John 8:51 I tell you the solemn truth, if anyone obeys my teaching, he will never see death."

See my response above.

It is never ever a filthy rag to obey Jesus.
The filthy rag scripture is because the Jews had to do a righteous act by giving a blood sacrifice for their sins, but they were not really sorry for their sins so it made their blood offering like a throw away blood offering from a menstrual rag.

Only the elect can obey. The imitators try to do it themselves and utterly fail.
If you have not been reconciled by God's Sovereign, divine, decree...you are dead in your trespasses and sins. Your righteousness is as filthy rags.

 

[MennoSota]

A sense of humor would do you a lot of good. Or maybe not, being that having one would get your Mennonite cult membership card revoked. :disgonbegood:

You'd have to actually be funny. Yes, "disgonebegood"

 

[YourTruthGod]

No
Atheists read the Bible, Hindus read the Bible, Muslims read the Bible, etc., but only the elect receive faith. It is a gift from God so that no one can boast.

Context, context, context

Anyone can get faith it is up to them if they are thirsty for God or not.

John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.

The elect can seek God. They are told so.

All can seek God.
The elect were the Jews because they were blood relatives of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, whom God loved.

Those who are dead in their trespasses and sins cannot. Read Romans 3.

The Gentiles were called unclean enemies of God because they didn't get circumcised and do the other purification works of the law.

No. It's about all humanity being dead in their trespasses and sins.

The Jews are equally dead in their trespasses and sins. No ceremony is going to make them righteous. All our righteousness is as filthy rags.

The Jews were the clean people, they were the ones adopted children of God, theirs was the promises, and from whom the Savior of the world came.
The Gentiles did not come into the covenant and atone for their sins.

There was no "allowing" someone to be made alive with Christ. God had to "will" them to be made alive with Christ.
The elect are called to preach the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5) God takes that message and causes those (not yet adopted, but destined for adoption) whom he has chosen to be made alive with Christ, have faith, and repent of sins.

God does not save unbelievers first and then cause them to repent.
There is no scripture anywhere where God saves unbelievers.
A person must believe first and repent of their sins.

There is no Jew nor Gentile. There is only those who are in Christ Jesus...made alive with Christ by God's will according to His grace.

You strike me as a possible Hebrew Roots member or Church of God.

I belong to Christ's body which is the church.