Layman's questions on the Apocryphal...

Andrew

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Allow me to redeem my original focus from a previous thread I made concerning the Reformers rejection of the Apocryphal writings, I meant no insult to protestants or Luther, I hardly know all the details of why protestants reject the Apocrypha as inspired writings but I am curious as I myself was raised Catholic and naturally thought that the Apocrypha was part of the bible... I started off my journey reading the Catholic bible and it was surprising for me to learn later on that some of my favorite OT books were merely 'fables' and 'none inspired' writings, it took me a while to learn what books are included as God inspired (cannon) and which ones weren't, so I feel It's better to ask questions here instead of researching through various places on the internet.
As a layman I ask... Why do protestants reject these books and is it possible that since they are part of the Septuagint, that early Christians accepted them as apart of the OT cannon?
Answers from Protestants and none Protestants (including EOC) are encouraged. Thanks
 
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RichWh1

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The main reason that Protestant Christians reject apocryphal writings is that there is no record of them being included in the Hebrew Scriptures.
No one is dismissing them totally as being useless, just not canonical.
They do have a great historical content that gives us a better understanding of the Jews


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Andrew

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The main reason that Protestant Christians reject apocryphal writings is that there is no record of them being included in the Hebrew Scriptures.
No one is dismissing them totally as being useless, just not canonical.
They do have a great historical content that gives us a better understanding of the Jews


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But the Septuagint has been proven to be more accurate than the later formed Masoretic text (formed around the middle ages) where we get the KJV of the OT from, there are several quotes in the NT that reference earlier quotes that are found in the Septuagint but not in the Masoretic OT.
 
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RichWh1

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The Masoretic Text was written in Hebrew while the Septuagint was a translation from Hebrew into Greek.
Yes quotes in the N T are from the Septuagint or Masoretic Text.
Apart from that, there are no differences



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Andrew

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The Masoretic Text was written in Hebrew while the Septuagint was a translation from Hebrew into Greek.
Yes quotes in the N T are from the Septuagint or Masoretic Text.
Apart from that, there are no differences



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Wasn't most of the jews speaking only greek by that time? This is the reason the OT was translated in the first place no?
 

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Yes they lost the Hebrew language when they were in captivity in Babylon.
The only ones who knew the Hebrew were the Scribes who copied and interpreted the Holy Writ.
They came out of Babylon speaking Aramaic and the trade language of the time was Greek, which was the reason the Scripture was translated into Greek



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Andrew

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Yes they lost the Hebrew language when they were in captivity in Babylon.
The only ones who knew the Hebrew were the Scribes who copied and interpreted the Holy Writ.
They came out of Babylon speaking Aramaic and the trade language of the time was Greek, which was the reason the Scripture was translated into Greek



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Thanks, my concern is actually the difference between the two, a few genealogy mistakes are found in the Masoretic text plus geological errors 'according' to (by relation) the earlier written Septuagint... but also the later named "Apocryphal" writings are not found in the Masoretic text as well...
How is it that the Septuagint is seemingly spotless in relation to NT references but the Masoretic not so much?
 

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The major differences between the Septuagint and the Masoretic text is in the year of Methuselah's death and in the presence of Cainan as the son of Arphaxad and father of Salah in the Septuagint, but not in the Masoretic (or Samaritan) text.
There is no earlier manuscript available to us that explains the discrepancy in the year of Methuselah's death, but it is possible to consider reasons for the change. If he died in the year of the Flood and was killed by God along with all the evil inhabitants of the earth, either he was himself evil and deserved to die, or Noah was unwilling to

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....nfirm-genealogy-in-the-septuagints-genesis-5


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Josiah

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Allow me to redeem my original focus from a previous thread I made concerning the Reformers rejection of the Apocryphal writings



1. Catholics and others call "them" (which ever of the ENDLESS number of sets you're talking about) as DEUTERO-canonical. The word "deutero" means secondary or under. Consider that.



2. The handful of denominations that SOMEHOW, to SOME level, in SOME way "embrace" SOME unique "set" of "them" do not agree at all about them. Every one of those denominations (several OOC ones, the EOC, the current RCC, the Anglicans, the Lutherans) all have DIFFERENT Deutero books and generally a different view and use of them. There is no consensus here. NEVER has been. Consider that.



3. For some 1400 years, the EOC and RCC had a different embrace of different DEUTERO books. Neither cared. It was never a debated subject. Why? Because they were seldom used and were considered as DEUTERO. And because both questioned their content and function. NO debate even though they had DIFFERENT Bibles.... because neither considered them significant or worth discussing much, much less debating. Consider that.



4. Actually, about HALF of Protestants DO accept "them" (again, which "set" are you talking about?). The "Protestants" you are talking about are CALVINISTS, which dominate in the USA but in few other nations. O Anglicans actually accept more DEUTERO books than the RCC Councils of Florance and Trent . Luther accepted one MORE than the RCC's Council of Florence or Trent did. Luther PERSONALLY held that these DEUTERO books be embraced as deutero but Lutherans choose to NOT make that position official or binding, Lutherans believed that an embrace or rejection of Books is something for the WHOLE church catholic to decided, not for one man or one denomination, and so Lutherans REFUSED to put a list in their confessions. But Anglicans DID do this - simply embracing a lot more of them than the RCC (or EOC for that matter). The comment about "Protestants" simply reveals an ignorance of by far the two largest Protestant faith communities in the world. Consider that.



5. This has nothing to do with the LXX. The RCC does not accept some of the material in the LXX either. The Jewish Council of Jamnia (90 AD) simply wasn't embraced by all Christians and some other books continued to be read by Christians which had been eliminated by the Jews. But they never "caught on" and remained controversal... and became typically known as "DEUTERO." The whole church has NEVER ruled on them - one way or the other. A FEW denominations have, but only since the 15th Century and only for that one singular, individual denomination, and NONE of them agree with ANY OTHER about this.... and none of them use them much. Lutherans are a bit of an exception here since Lutherans simply don't have the ego to appoint self to determine this matter. Luther INCLUDED the typical 16th Century GERMAN "set" in his German translation since Germans were use to them, but simply shared his PERSONAL OPINION that the DEUTERO books are deutero. Some others (the RCC, Anglicans, Calvinists, Mormons, etc.) have taken it upon itself to officially decided this - but this has been recent and no two denominations that embrace any DEUTERO book agree with any other on this. (Technically, the EOC and OOC are also like the Lutherans, not officially ruling). Consider that.




.
 

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I am aware of the ones the RCC accpt, at least I think its those, the ones you see in a bookstore thay call it the Apocrathe , I would love to see a complete list as have never ran across that there were others as well
 

Josiah

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I would love to see a complete list as have never ran across that there were others as well


... no such list exists.

Which DEUTERO ('secondary') books are embraced is UNIQUE to each of the denominations that in SOME way and to SOME extent accept SOME of them.

Even the ones the RCC officially embraced in the mid 16th Century is UNIQUE to that one denomination at that moment; many others were once in Catholic tomes (even one in the NT). The CURRENT Catholic Bible isn't the same as what is now typical in the Russian Orthodox Church or Syrian Orthodox Church, for example. And not the same as in an Anglican/Episcopal Bible or in Luther's translation. There is no such thing as a "complete list." No such thing as a "commonly accepted list." Never has been.
 

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I found this on an OCA website:
https://oca.org/questions/scripture/canon-of-scripture

The Old Testament books to which you refer—
known in the Orthodox Church as the “longer canon”
rather than the “Apocrypha,” as they are known among the Protestants
—are accepted by Orthodox Christianity as canonical scripture.
These particular books are found only in the Septuagint version of the Old Testament,
but not in the Hebrew texts of the rabbis.

These books—
Tobit, Judah, more chapters of Esther and Daniel, the Books of Maccabees,
the Book of the Wisdom of Solomon, the Book of Sirach, the Prophecy of Baruch,
and the Prayer of Manasseh
—are considered by the Orthodox to be fully part of the Old testament
because they are part of the longer canon
that was accepted from the beginning
by the early Church.


The same Canon [rule] of Scripture is used by the Roman Catholic Church.
In the Jerusalem Bible (RC) these books are intermingled within the Old Testament Books
and not placed separately as often in Protestant translations (e.g., KJV).


The underlined portion seems to be an accurate justification for their inclusion...

So while we recognize the denominating of these as deutero-
We regard them as full- canonical...
The "Longer Canon"...

They are not used in our Church Services...

Our question is: Why follow the non-Christian Canon of the Rabbis?

The Septuagint is an ancient Jewish translation of the Ancient Hebrew text into Greek...

That text has not survived, nor have copies of it...

The Masoretic text is a much later creation by non-Christian Rabbis...


Arsenios
 
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