concupiscentia

Arsenios

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Scripture doesn't speak of a "fallen condition".
It speaks of death through sin ("...sin reigned in death...").
The reductionism to a "sin condition/nature" waters down
the essence and gravity of the situation we actually find ourselves in,
and reduces the sacrifice of Christ
to what one theologian referred to as
"cheap grace"

That is the truth!

We are cautioned to "count the cost" of discipleship in Christ...

Here we have a poster who scorns that very idea...

Cheap grace indeed is that theology...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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MC, just getting his jollies pasting illegitimate documents from his church. Best to ignore it until he has an original thought based on scripture.


Discipleship is not based on the personal opinions of those imagining that they are engaged in original thinking...

Perish that thought to the privy!

But instead is based on obedience to Christ...

Saul, Saul...
Why persecutesth thou Me?


Did Saul ever so much as ruffle even a hair on Christ's Head??

Persecuting the Ekklesia is persecuting Christ, you see...

Unavoidable, and a clear teaching of the Apostle...


Arsenios
 

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Discipleship is not based on the personal opinions of those imagining that they are engaged in original thinking...

Perish that thought to the privy!

But instead is based on obedience to Christ...

Saul, Saul...
Why persecutesth thou Me?


Did Saul ever so much as ruffle even a hair on Christ's Head??

Persecuting the Ekklesia is persecuting Christ, you see...

Unavoidable, and a clear teaching of the Apostle...


Arsenios

First, your post has nothing to do with MC simply pasting the illegitimate opinions of his church.
Second, your post has nothing to do with the fall of man and its consequence for all humanity.
 

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Discipleship is not based on the personal opinions of those imagining that they are engaged in original thinking...

Perish that thought to the privy!

Yet here in CH "original thought" is elevated above documented teaching except if the document happens to be a bible verse or passage then somehow it becomes part of "original thought"

Quoting from the bible is not original; people have been doing that from Moses' day to ours.

Quoting private interpretation of bible verses is not original; people have been doing that from Moses' day to ours.

"original thought" is likely very rare. Typing a post using your own paraphrase of what you were taught is not "original thought".

If a quoted document addresses the subject under discussion then what's wrong with quoting it?

It is not as if the people on CH have greater wisdom than the Church fathers.
 

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Paul writes that it is Death that is the cause of sin...

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death
(entered into the world) by (that) sin;
So also death passed into all men,
upon which
(entry of death into all men) all have sinned:

Arsenios

It seems your verse shows you have it backwards. Death is a result of sin, not the other way around. But yes, as a result of the Fall, all are DEAD. D.E.A.D. Dead people can't do much.... cetrainly not give self life, raise self from the death, render Jesus irrelevant.



The RCC and "first-wave" Protestantism is largely in agreement on original sin. However, the RCC at Trent retreated a bit into semi-Pelagianism (necessary to support its synergism in Justification), but both Luther and Calvin retained the theology of original sin. The concept is simple: Our nature is fallen.... in our spiritual (not biological) "DNA" is a spiritual disease that is rebellious and not in line with God's heart. The Bible often refers to this nature by the term "sin" or "sinful" (in the singular) This disease may often has symptoms (which the Bible often refers to by "sins" in the plural) - sins of commission and omission, sins of thoughts and words and deeds. Say I have a cold (I don't, but run with me here).... THEREFORE, I may have a runny nose and sore throat... I may be caughing and sneeezing (although I may not at even given moment).... the "problem" is the disease, that's the reason for the symptoms, that's the cause of the symptoms (not the other way around). Now.... to an extent.... we MAY be able to reduce the symptoms (I "cover" my cold with a handful of pills - reducing the symptoms but doing nothing for the disease) but that doesn't mean we don't have the disease. This is a view Lutherans and Calvinists accept and teach.

Trent is correct that this is RELATED to but not identical to the theology of monergism, the veiw that Jesus is the Savior (and not self for self). But this is where the RCC retreated back into Pelagianism. The condemned heretic Pelagius taught that the "fall" hurt man but only a bit..... man CAN (theoretically anyway) live a righteous life and CAN participate in his own salvation - so that he doesn't actually need salvation but rather help: He needs a good moral example (and has it in Jesus), he needs good inspiration (and has it in Jesus), and while he CAN get it all done himself, he benefits enormously from divine help (and has that in the Holy Spirit). Where the RCC is only SEMI-Pelagian is that it holds that this divine example, inspiration and help is necessary not simply beneficial) so that at Trent the RCC retreated only partly into the heresy it condemned a thousand years earlier: Jesus is ESSENTIAL but not as our SAVIOR but as the "door opener", the possibility-maker, the model/teacher, the inspiration, the Helper. "God helps those who help themselves" as my Catholic teachers taught regarding Justification. The Fall harmed man but that's all.....

Luther and Calvin retained the Council of Orange and the doctrine of Original Sin and the condemnation of Pelagianism (including the refined form of it the RCC embraced). Calvin called this "total depravity". It does NOT say that fallen man is incapable of doing good in the eyes of MAN ("civil righteousness" this is called in classical, orthodox theology) - my Buddhist friend can help little old ladies across the street as well as I can - but this is not beneficial to him in terms of Justification (or even Sanctification since the Buddhist lacks faith and without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God; it earns nothing).

Total Depravity is simply the Calvinists way of underlining monergism - a view Calvinists learned from Lutherans (as well as Augustine, the Council of Orange, etc.). As a result of the fall, ALL are DEAD the Bible insists.....as the Reformers affirmed. And dead people don't do much. Zombies can walk and bite but they cannot heal themselves, they cannot save themselves, they cannot be what they are not.




- Josiah




.
 

Arsenios

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Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,
and death through sin,
in this manner death also entered into all men,
for which cause all have sinned—

It seems your verse shows you have it backwards.
Death is a result of sin, not the other way around.

True of Adam, for it was the sin of Adam that brought death to all men...

But not true for all men after Adam...

If a man lives sinlessly, he will still die, you see...

Note that all men are born and will die because of Adam's sin...

Even if they do not sin after the manner of Adam...

We inherit Adam's death, my friend...

We do not inherit his sin...

Sin we manage to acquire all on our own...

And the passage clearly shows that we do so because we have inherited death together with the life into which we are born...

But yes, as a result of the Fall, all are DEAD.
.

Totally false...

To inherit death when born is not to be born dead into life...

Was Christ born dead as a man?

Sin is an action a man takes...

Death is a part of his inheritance...

In fallen man, death is the cause of sin...

Christ did not become immortal because He did not sin...


Arsenios
 
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Josiah

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Josiah said:

The RCC and "first-wave" Protestantism is largely in agreement on original sin. However, the RCC at Trent retreated a bit into semi-Pelagianism (necessary to support its synergism in Justification), but both Luther and Calvin retained the theology of original sin. The concept is simple: Our nature is fallen.... in our spiritual (not biological) "DNA" is a spiritual disease that is rebellious and not in line with God's heart. The Bible often refers to this nature by the term "sin" or "sinful" (in the singular) This disease may often has symptoms (which the Bible often refers to by "sins" in the plural) - sins of commission and omission, sins of thoughts and words and deeds. Say I have a cold (I don't, but run with me here).... THEREFORE, I may have a runny nose and sore throat... I may be caughing and sneeezing (although I may not at even given moment).... the "problem" is the disease, that's the reason for the symptoms, that's the cause of the symptoms (not the other way around). Now.... to an extent.... we MAY be able to reduce the symptoms (I "cover" my cold with a handful of pills - reducing the symptoms but doing nothing for the disease) but that doesn't mean we don't have the disease. This is a view Lutherans and Calvinists accept and teach.


Trent is correct that this is RELATED to but not identical to the theology of monergism, the veiw that Jesus is the Savior (and not self for self). But this is where the RCC retreated back into Pelagianism. The condemned heretic Pelagius taught that the "fall" hurt man but only a bit..... man CAN (theoretically anyway) live a righteous life and CAN participate in his own salvation - so that he doesn't actually need salvation but rather help: He needs a good moral example (and has it in Jesus), he needs good inspiration (and has it in Jesus), and while he CAN get it all done himself, he benefits enormously from divine help (and has that in the Holy Spirit). Where the RCC is only SEMI-Pelagian is that it holds that this divine example, inspiration and help is necessary not simply beneficial) so that at Trent the RCC retreated only partly into the heresy it condemned a thousand years earlier: Jesus is ESSENTIAL but not as our SAVIOR but as the "door opener", the possibility-maker, the model/teacher, the inspiration, the Helper. "God helps those who help themselves" as my Catholic teachers taught regarding Justification. The Fall harmed man but that's all.....


Luther and Calvin retained the Council of Orange and the doctrine of Original Sin and the condemnation of Pelagianism (including the refined form of it the RCC embraced). Calvin called this "total depravity". It does NOT say that fallen man is incapable of doing good in the eyes of MAN ("civil righteousness" this is called in classical, orthodox theology) - my Buddhist friend can help little old ladies across the street as well as I can - but this is not beneficial to him in terms of Justification (or even Sanctification since the Buddhist lacks faith and without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God; it earns nothing).


Total Depravity is simply the Calvinists way of underlining monergism - a view Calvinists learned from Lutherans (as well as Augustine, the Council of Orange, etc.). As a result of the fall, ALL are DEAD the Bible insists.....as the Reformers affirmed. And dead people don't do much. Zombies can walk and bite but they cannot heal themselves, they cannot save themselves, they cannot be what they are not.




.
True of Adam, for it was the sin of Adam that brought death to all men... But not true for all men after Adam... If a man lives sinlessly, he will still die, you see...


There was only one person who lived sinlessly.... true, He died but only because He took on the sins of US all; He died because of OUR sin but His own (because He had none).... He died for OUR sin, because of OUR sin.

"The wages of sin is death.' All die for all have sin.



Was Christ born dead as a man?


The Bible specifically states He was without sin (without the disease.... ergo without the symptoms) and thus was not spiritually dead (the one exception). WHY? The Bible never says. Protestants opinion that it's by virtue of the "communication of attributes" which flow one direction, from His divine nature to the human. Some Roman Catholics theorize it is because Mary had no sin (a point the Bible never teaches) and ergo Christ had done (which only works if Mary had no sin.... nor did Mary's parents or grandparents or greatgrandparents.... so that NO ONE has sin, making the statement that Jesus was without sin moot and making the Bible wrong when it says for all have sin).





.
 

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Yet here in CH "original thought" is elevated above documented teaching except if the document happens to be a bible verse or passage then somehow it becomes part of "original thought"

Quoting from the bible is not original; people have been doing that from Moses' day to ours.

Quoting private interpretation of bible verses is not original; people have been doing that from Moses' day to ours.

"original thought" is likely very rare. Typing a post using your own paraphrase of what you were taught is not "original thought".

If a quoted document addresses the subject under discussion then what's wrong with quoting it?

It is not as if the people on CH have greater wisdom than the Church fathers.
Shall we approve of the documented teaching of Joseph Smith?
How do we discern that his documented teaching is false? The same way we discern your churches teaching is false. We have God's word determine if the teaching of men is false or truth.
The difference you and I have is that you elevate your church traditions to equal or greater than God's word in the Bible.
You, much like a lemming, just follow your pied piper with no question or capacity to act otherwise, yet you cannot conceive of the fact that your church and Joseph Smith's church is closer to being one and the same than it is to the person of Jesus Christ.
MC, with love I admonish you to flee the cult of Rome that has existed for nearly 1800 years. It points you toward hell and you can't even see it.
 

Arsenios

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There was only one person who lived sinlessly.... true,
He died but only because He took on the sins of US all;
He died because of OUR sin but not His own (because He had none)....
He died for OUR sin, because of OUR sin.

"The wages of sin is death.' All die for all have sin.

So do you really think then that the weight of the sins of us all...
Is what killed Christ on the Cross???

I do not think you believe that, Josiah...

The Bible specifically states He was without sin (without the disease.... ergo without the symptoms)
and thus was not spiritually dead (the one exception).

His human nature was no different than yours or mine, wasn't it?

He was tempted in every way that man can be tempted, yet sinned not...

And He died, Joseph...

He died on the Cross...

He died to his fallen humanity...

He died to His flesh, as all of us men do...

There was no death in Him...

He "Gave up His Spirit..." Remember?

He was not killed...

His Death was by His Own volition on the Cross...

WHY? The Bible never says. Protestants opinion that it's by virtue of the "communication of attributes" which flow one direction, from His divine nature to the human. Some Roman Catholics theorize it is because Mary had no sin (a point the Bible never teaches) and ergo Christ had done (which only works if Mary had no sin.... nor did Mary's parents or grandparents or greatgrandparents.... so that NO ONE has sin, making the statement that Jesus was without sin moot and making the Bible wrong when it says for all have sin).

Do you think Christ the Son of Man became immortal because He did not sin?


Arsenios





.[/QUOTE]
 

Josiah

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.
 
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Josiah

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So do you really think then that the weight of the sins of us all... Is what killed Christ on the Cross??? I do not think you believe that, Josiah...


Yes, I DO affirm what God states in His Scriptures...

1 Peter 2:24

2 Corinthians 5:21

Galatians 1:4

Galatians 3:13

1 Corinthians 15:3

Romans 8:3



Arsenios said:
He was tempted in every way that man can be tempted, yet sinned not...And He died


Yup. So the Bible is correct: Jesus did not die for His sins (as you note, He didn't have any) but rather for OUR sins. He didn't need a Savior, we did. He is the Savior or us, not we of Him. Important to know that.




Arsenos said:
He died to his fallen humanity...


Would you please quote the Bible saying that? Where does it say that Jesus was fallen, that Jesus had the "disease" of sin and was alientated from God and was spiritually dead?





.
 

Arsenios

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Arsenios said:
Do you believe that the weight of all our sins killed Christ on the Cross?
Josiah said:
Yes, I DO affirm what God states in His Scriptures...

1 Peter 2:24

2 Corinthians 5:21

Galatians 1:4

Galatians 3:13

1 Corinthians 15:3

Romans 8:3

None of these say the weight of our sins killed Christ...

It is important to speak with precision...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Would you please quote the Bible saying that?
Where does it say that Jesus was fallen,
that Jesus had the "disease" of sin
and was alientated from God
and was spiritually dead?

As saying what?

I never said anything you said above...

Christ died in the flesh voluntarily...

You said He was killed by the weight of all our sins...


Arsenios
 

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As saying what?

I never said anything you said above...

Christ died in the flesh voluntarily...

You said He was killed by the weight of all our sins...


Arsenios

Actually Josiah didn't say "He was killed by the weight of all our sins..." unless I missed that direct quote someplace? Could it be you misunderstood what Josiah said?
 

Josiah

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As saying what?

I never said anything you said above...

Christ died in the flesh voluntarily...

You said He was killed by the weight of all our sins...


Arsenios


Read posts 85, 87 and 89. You seem to be changing the discussion.

What I said is that Jesus died because of OUR sins. Yes, accepting OUR sins upon Himself did mean ergo He would die...

What I said is that as a result of the Fall, all are DIED (which you denied) and that death is the result of this Fall (which you also denied). And I said that Christ died for OUR sins (which you also denied). So I referenced several Scriptures (which you ignored).

I never said He died involuntarily.... He is our willing Savior.... but He did die, as a result of OUR sin, which He willingly accepted upon Himself.



Josiah said:
t seems your verse shows you have it backwards. Death is a result of sin, not the other way around. But yes, as a result of the Fall, all are DEAD. D.E.A.D. Dead people can't do much.... cetrainly not give self life, raise self from the death, render Jesus irrelevant.



The RCC and "first-wave" Protestantism is largely in agreement on original sin. However, the RCC at Trent retreated a bit into semi-Pelagianism (necessary to support its synergism in Justification), but both Luther and Calvin retained the theology of original sin. The concept is simple: Our nature is fallen.... in our spiritual (not biological) "DNA" is a spiritual disease that is rebellious and not in line with God's heart. The Bible often refers to this nature by the term "sin" or "sinful" (in the singular) This disease may often has symptoms (which the Bible often refers to by "sins" in the plural) - sins of commission and omission, sins of thoughts and words and deeds. Say I have a cold (I don't, but run with me here).... THEREFORE, I may have a runny nose and sore throat... I may be caughing and sneeezing (although I may not at even given moment).... the "problem" is the disease, that's the reason for the symptoms, that's the cause of the symptoms (not the other way around). Now.... to an extent.... we MAY be able to reduce the symptoms (I "cover" my cold with a handful of pills - reducing the symptoms but doing nothing for the disease) but that doesn't mean we don't have the disease. This is a view Lutherans and Calvinists accept and teach.


Trent is correct that this is RELATED to but not identical to the theology of monergism, the veiw that Jesus is the Savior (and not self for self). But this is where the RCC retreated back into Pelagianism. The condemned heretic Pelagius taught that the "fall" hurt man but only a bit..... man CAN (theoretically anyway) live a righteous life and CAN participate in his own salvation - so that he doesn't actually need salvation but rather help: He needs a good moral example (and has it in Jesus), he needs good inspiration (and has it in Jesus), and while he CAN get it all done himself, he benefits enormously from divine help (and has that in the Holy Spirit). Where the RCC is only SEMI-Pelagian is that it holds that this divine example, inspiration and help is necessary not simply beneficial) so that at Trent the RCC retreated only partly into the heresy it condemned a thousand years earlier: Jesus is ESSENTIAL but not as our SAVIOR but as the "door opener", the possibility-maker, the model/teacher, the inspiration, the Helper. "God helps those who help themselves" as my Catholic teachers taught regarding Justification. The Fall harmed man but that's all.....


Luther and Calvin retained the Council of Orange and the doctrine of Original Sin and the condemnation of Pelagianism (including the refined form of it the RCC embraced). Calvin called this "total depravity". It does NOT say that fallen man is incapable of doing good in the eyes of MAN ("civil righteousness" this is called in classical, orthodox theology) - my Buddhist friend can help little old ladies across the street as well as I can - but this is not beneficial to him in terms of Justification (or even Sanctification since the Buddhist lacks faith and without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God; it earns nothing).


Total Depravity is simply the Calvinists way of underlining monergism - a view Calvinists learned from Lutherans (as well as Augustine, the Council of Orange, etc.). As a result of the fall, ALL are DEAD the Bible insists.....as the Reformers affirmed. And dead people don't do much. Zombies can walk and bite but they cannot heal themselves, they cannot save themselves, they cannot be what they are not.




- Josiah



.




.
 
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Arsenios

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Actually Josiah didn't say "He was killed by the weight of all our sins..."
unless I missed that direct quote someplace?
Could it be you misunderstood what Josiah said?

Could be... Here is what Josiah wrote:

Josiah said:
There was only one person who lived sinlessly.... true,
He died but only because He took on the sins of US all;
He died because of OUR sin but His own (because He had none)....
He died for OUR sin,
because of OUR sin.

"The wages of sin is death.'
All die for all have sin.

So he is conflating "because of" with "for" as a start,
and seems to be saying that it is OUR sins that killed Him...
eg from his Scriptural quotes:
Because he became sin for us, He died -
eg He died from our sins...

Imprecision in language...

First, the Cross did not kill Him...
Second, He died only when He voluntarily gave up His human spirit...
His death was caused by no one other than Himself...
As now disguised, He entered Hades as a sinner...

And did a beat-down of Death in His Own Body...

This is why I opened the line of enquiry with Joseph...

Our sins did NOT KILL Christ on the Cross...


Arsenios
 

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Read posts 85, 87 and 89. You seem to be changing the discussion.

What I said is that Jesus died because of OUR sins.

So did our sins kill Jesus when He was being crucified on the Cross?

Yes, accepting OUR sins upon Himself did mean ergo He would die...

The question is: "What killed Jesus on the Cross?"

It is not: "Why Did Jesus die on the Cross?"

What I said is that as a result of the Fall, all are DIED (which you denied) and that death is the result of this Fall (which you also denied). And I said that Christ died for OUR sins (which you also denied). So I referenced several Scriptures (which you ignored).

The result of the Fall is that man in Adam is born FALLEN, under the rulership of Death in a fallen Kosmos, in which he will die while under its Aegis...

You say man is born dead already...

Christ died on the Cross, and we are to be Baptized into His Death...

Why is that so, if we are already dead?


Arsenios

I never said He died involuntarily.... He is our willing Savior.... but He did die, as a result of OUR sin, which He willingly accepted upon Himself.
































.
 

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None of these say the weight of our sins killed Christ...

It is important to speak with precision...

Arsenios
Sudden, acute cardiac arrest (and possible multi-organ failure) brought on by excessive blood loss and stress was the most likely cause of death according to an analysis of the testimony of scripture by a forensic pathologist that I once read. The major indicators were the sudden shout and the the water and blood emerging from the heart sac, plus his likely condition following the beating. His quick death (as noted by the Romans) makes the more common death by asphyxiation less likely.

Just tossing in my 2 cents.
Carry on without me, since you-all were not really arguing over Jesus’ cause of death.
 

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Sudden, acute cardiac arrest (and possible multi-organ failure) brought on by excessive blood loss and stress was the most likely cause of death according to an analysis of the testimony of scripture by a forensic pathologist that I once read. The major indicators were the sudden shout and the the water and blood emerging from the heart sac, plus his likely condition following the beating. His quick death (as noted by the Romans) makes the more common death by asphyxiation less likely.

Just tossing in my 2 cents.
Carry on without me, since you-all were not really arguing over Jesus’ cause of death.

I sure was...

He gave up His spirit, don't you remember...

He was not killed by the Cross...

He died by giving up His spirit...

Luke 23:46 and John 19:30...

Nothing took His Life from Him...

He laid it down...

He took it up again...


Arsenios
 

atpollard

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I sure was...

He gave up His spirit, don't you remember...

He was not killed by the Cross...

He died by giving up His spirit...

Luke 23:46 and John 19:30...

Nothing took His Life from Him...

He laid it down...

He took it up again...


Arsenios

Then the question becomes WHY did he lay it down, and our sin was the reason Jesus laid down His life and took it up again.

[1Jo 2:2 NASB] 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world.
[1Jo 4:10 NASB] 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
 
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