What is DISCIPLING?

[Arsenios]

Not only what is it but what is it for?

And who is to do it?

And what does it disciple?

Is discipling mere teaching from the lectern?

Is it sermonizing from the pulpit?

What does Christ mean when He is recorded saying to the Apostles:

"Go - Disciple all the Nations...
Teaching them to observe precisely ALL that I have commanded you...
Baptizing them in the Name...
Of the Father
and of the Son
and of the Holy Spirit."

(My literal translation - Disciple is a verb)


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

I'm going to guess that he meant for them to convert all nations to what we call Christianity. No?

 

[Arsenios]

I'm going to guess that he meant for them to convert all nations to what we call Christianity. No?

Well, going with that, what then does discipling look like?

Is conversion a part of discipling?

What does it mean to "carefully observe" [all that I have commanded you]?


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

I'm sorry to say that you must be driving towards something that is eluding me, Arsenios. The meaning is straightforward, as far as I can tell. Make converts. Teach them what I taught you, etc.

 

[Arsenios]

I'm sorry to say that you must be driving towards something that is eluding me, Arsenios.
The meaning is straightforward, as far as I can tell.
Make converts.
Teach them what I taught you,
etc.

Here is the word commonly translated as "observe":

τηρεῖν

Here is its meaning:
Primary: to attend to carefully, take care of
a) to guard
b) metaph. to keep, (one in the state in which he is)
c) to observe

Now I can see ALL of those meanings having application here...

But what it seems to me to mean, it does not seem to mean to you...
I look to what happened after Jesus commanded the Apostles...
The early Church had daily Services, had the daily times of the prayers...
1st Hour, 3rd Hour, 6th Hour, 9th Hour,
The morning Service (now Matins)
The Evening Service (now Vespers)
The Midnight Service...
Plus the Divine Service of the Consecration of the Body and Blood of our Lord...

These Services are common to ALL Apostolic Churches from the very beginnings...

Do you think this is some of what Christ is intending in this Command to His Apostles?


Arsenios
to reserve: to undergo something

 

[Arsenios]

For you Sola-folks, then, please answer this:

What does the Bible say that discipling is?

Where in the Bible is the verb "discipling" defined or illustrated?

Because it sure seems that Christ defined it in terms of two things:

Teaching people to do Christ's commands...

And Baptizing them...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Here is the word commonly translated as "observe":

τηρεῖν

Here is its meaning:
Primary: to attend to carefully, take care of
a) to guard
b) metaph. to keep, (one in the state in which he is)
c) to observe

Now I can see ALL of those meanings having application here...

But what it seems to me to mean, it does not seem to mean to you...
I look to what happened after Jesus commanded the Apostles...
The early Church had daily Services, had the daily times of the prayers...
1st Hour, 3rd Hour, 6th Hour, 9th Hour,
The morning Service (now Matins)
The Evening Service (now Vespers)
The Midnight Service...
Plus the Divine Service of the Consecration of the Body and Blood of our Lord...

These Services are common to ALL Apostolic Churches from the very beginnings...

Do you think this is some of what Christ is intending in this Command to His Apostles?


Arsenios
to reserve: to undergo something

Christ didn't teach any of your daily services. In fact, your services look like Judaism rather than Christianity. Traditions of men, not of God.

Let's stick with what Jesus commanded us, not what your traditions command, but Jesus never said.

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.*Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,*teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” - Matthew 28:18-20

 

[Arsenios]

Christ didn't teach any of your daily services. In fact, your services look like Judaism rather than Christianity. Traditions of men, not of God.

Let's stick with what Jesus commanded us, not what your traditions command, but Jesus never said.

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.*Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,*teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” - Matthew 28:18-20

So why is it that all the Apostolic Churches have virtually the same daily and weekly and yearly cycle of services?

Are you arguing that Apostolic Churches are acting under the Authority given to Christ over ALL things?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

So why is it that all the Apostolic Churches have virtually the same daily and weekly and yearly cycle of services?

Are you arguing that Apostolic Churches are acting under the Authority given to Christ over ALL things?


Arsenios

I'm arguing that they made up there cycle and Jesus never once commanded that daily, weekly and yearly cycle.
I'm arguing that your church and MCs church has severely distorted the faith and teaches many things that Christ himself did not teach his disciples.

 

[Arsenios]

I'm arguing that they made up there cycle and Jesus never once commanded that daily, weekly and yearly cycle.
I'm arguing that your church and MCs church has severely distorted the faith and teaches many things that Christ himself did not teach his disciples.

Well, the Protestant Churches all have widely varying services, and endless conflicting understandings of Doctrine...

Apostolic Churches have close congruence of Worship Services and Doctrine...

And have had them for 2000 years...

If they all just made them up from the Bible as Protestants do,
would they not be just as widely varying
as are the multitude ofProtestants Services and Doctrines?
Their changes in the last several hundred years alone are legion...

The Romans did nothing for the first four hundred years to do anything but persecute and torture and kill Christians in all manner of horrible ways, and yet the Praxis and Doctrines in all countries, without the internet, mind you, is identical... How did that happen, Menno? And how is it still true to this day? When Protestant Christianity in the US is disintegrating under our feet, and unattended Churches are being converted into stages and sold as art galleries and restaurants?


Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

Well, the Protestant Churches all have widely varying services, and endless conflicting understandings of Doctrine...

Apostolic Churches have close congruence of Worship Services and Doctrine...

And have had them for 2000 years...

If they all just made them up from the Bible as Protestants do,
would they not be just as widely varying
as are the multitude ofProtestants Services and Doctrines?
Their changes in the last several hundred years alone are legion...

The Romans did nothing for the first four hundred years to do anything but persecute and torture and kill Christians in all manner of horrible ways, and yet the Praxis and Doctrines in all countries, without the internet, mind you, is identical... How did that happen, Menno? And how is it still true to this day? When Protestant Christianity in the US is disintegrating under our feet, and unattended Churches are being converted into stages and sold as art galleries and restaurants?


Arsenios

Lutherans have a liturgical service. We don't just make things up "as the Protestants do" and we're the first Protestants to protest. Maybe you aren't aware of how some Protestants have their worship services to make these accusations that you do?

 

[MennoSota]

Well, the Protestant Churches all have widely varying services, and endless conflicting understandings of Doctrine...

Apostolic Churches have close congruence of Worship Services and Doctrine...

And have had them for 2000 years...

If they all just made them up from the Bible as Protestants do,
would they not be just as widely varying
as are the multitude ofProtestants Services and Doctrines?
Their changes in the last several hundred years alone are legion...

The Romans did nothing for the first four hundred years to do anything but persecute and torture and kill Christians in all manner of horrible ways, and yet the Praxis and Doctrines in all countries, without the internet, mind you, is identical... How did that happen, Menno? And how is it still true to this day? When Protestant Christianity in the US is disintegrating under our feet, and unattended Churches are being converted into stages and sold as art galleries and restaurants?


Arsenios

You still miss the point. Your church structure is not because Jesus told you so. Your early leaders created some basic semblance and it has morphed over the centuries. (Also, I'll grant you 1800 years, not 2000. The first couple hundred are filled with independent churches developing. It's after this when your church begins adding stuff that is simply quirky and not biblical. For example, the use of icons. It's outright idol creation based upon paganism. No connection to Christ Jesus at all. Throw them out Arsenios.

 

[Arsenios]

You still miss the point. Your church structure is not because Jesus told you so. Your early leaders created some basic semblance and it has morphed over the centuries. (Also, I'll grant you 1800 years, not 2000. The first couple hundred are filled with independent churches developing. It's after this when your church begins adding stuff that is simply quirky and not biblical. For example, the use of icons. It's outright idol creation based upon paganism. No connection to Christ Jesus at all. Throw them out Arsenios.

Thanks for the 1800 years...

But if the "addition of stuff" is as you say, then how is it so uniform across your 1800 years?

And in Ethiopia, which disappeared to the West for a thousand years, the Services and Doctrines are the same...

You see, Apostolic Churches do not change and are closely congruent in disparate countries...

I can go to a Service in Iraq, not understand the language, and know my way through the entire service...

And that Church is not in Communion with mine...

But it is Apostolic...

With the Bible as the basis of Protestant Churches, their doctrines and practices are all over the place...

Attend an unknown Protestant Service in a foreign language and will you be at home?

Will you even know it is a Christian Service?

How will you know?

Is the image of the Cross an Icon?

The Apostles saw Christ and retained His Image in their minds...

We see the Image [EIKON] of Christ to retain it in our minds...

We are created in the EIKON of God...

Words create images - Are words idol worship?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Thanks for the 1800 years...

But if the "addition of stuff" is as you say, then how is it so uniform across your 1800 years?

And in Ethiopia, which disappeared to the West for a thousand years, the Services and Doctrines are the same...

You see, Apostolic Churches do not change and are closely congruent in disparate countries...

I can go to a Service in Iraq, not understand the language, and know my way through the entire service...

And that Church is not in Communion with mine...

But it is Apostolic...

With the Bible as the basis of Protestant Churches, their doctrines and practices are all over the place...

Attend an unknown Protestant Service in a foreign language and will you be at home?

Will you even know it is a Christian Service?

How will you know?

Is the image of the Cross an Icon?

The Apostles saw Christ and retained His Image in their minds...

We see the Image [EIKON] of Christ to retain it in our minds...

We are created in the EIKON of God...

Words create images - Are words idol worship?


Arsenios

Unchanged heresy is unchanged heresy, Arsenios. Judaisers have been around since the first church. They don't change.
Now...about the idols of icons...

 

[Arsenios]

Unchanged heresy is unchanged heresy, Arsenios. Judaisers have been around since the first church. They don't change.
Now...about the idols of icons...

What then does it mean to be created in the Image [EIKON] of God?
Was Christ visible?
Are we to icon Christ in our lives?
Do Biblical words create images in your mind?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios. Judaisers have been around since the first church.

What does the Bible say a Judaizer is?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

What then does it mean to be created in the Image [EIKON] of God?
Was Christ visible?
Are we to icon Christ in our lives?
Do Biblical words create images in your mind?


Arsenios

When we create an image of God according to our imagination, we create an idol that we worship. It is similar to Jereboam creating two calves at Bethel and Dan to represent YHWH and then sending the nation of Israel to worship God there. Any image created by men to represent God is an idol, not God.

 

[MennoSota]

What does the Bible say a Judaizer is?


Arsenios

Read Galatians.

 

[Arsenios]

When we create an image of God according to our imagination, we create an idol that we worship. It is similar to Jereboam creating two calves at Bethel and Dan to represent YHWH and then sending the nation of Israel to worship God there. Any image created by men to represent God is an idol, not God.

Good answer, Menno...

You are not as dumb as I look...

(But who COULD be?).

So what does the Bible record of what the Apostles and disciples of the Lord DID with the images of Christ which they retained in their memories?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Read Galatians.

Show me in Galations what is written about Judaizers that you are seeing me doing...

I mean, it is you making the charge, not me...

I read Galatians and do not see your meaning, ok?


Arsenios