Short story by your truly (Holy Spirit Baptism)

[Pedrito]

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Mennosota (Post #94):

Baptizo means immerse. Context allows us to discern into what the object is being immersed... Instead, you mistakenly make baptism a means of salvation as though it were a mystical ceremony that invokes God's action...

Albion (Post #98):

You cannot have it both ways, saying that to immerse means to submerge in water and also, when it is convenient, claim that it is but an analogy meaning to be “immersed” in Christ.

Let’s have a look. (E&OE)

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New Testament References

G907 – 1. to immerse, submerge; 2. to make whelmed or soaked (i.e. fully wet); 3. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk); 4. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe; 5. to overwhelm.

Water … Matthew 3:16, Matthew 28:19, Mark 1:4-5, Mark 16:16, Luke 3:3, Luke 3:7, Luke 3:12, Luke 3:21, Luke 7:29-30, Luke 20:4, John 1:25-26, John 1:28, John 1:31, John 3:22-23, John 3:26, John 4:1-2, Acts 2:38, Act2 2:41, Acts 8:12-13, Acts 8:16, Acts 8:36, Acts 8:38, Acts 9:18, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 13:24, Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33, Acts 18:8, Acts 18:25, Acts 19:3-5, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-4, 1 Corinthians 15:29, Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 4:5, Colossians 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21.

Water and Holy Spirit … Mark 1:8-9, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16, Hebrews 6:2.

Water and Holy Spirit and fire … Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16,

A future situation = a fate … Matthew 20:22-23, Mark 10:38-39, Luke 12:50.

A shared situation … 1 Corinthians 10:2.

The body of Christ … 1 Corinthians 12:12-13

*** Baptized into the Body of Christ by one Spirit? Could MennoSota have made a good point after all? ***

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Old Testament references can be supplied as well, if anyone is interested.​

 

[Andrew]

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Mennosota (Post #94):


Albion (Post #98):


Let’s have a look. (E&OE)

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New Testament References

G907 – 1. to immerse, submerge; 2. to make whelmed or soaked (i.e. fully wet); 3. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk); 4. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe; 5. to overwhelm.

Water … Matthew 3:16, Matthew 28:19, Mark 1:4-5, Mark 16:16, Luke 3:3, Luke 3:7, Luke 3:12, Luke 3:21, Luke 7:29-30, Luke 20:4, John 1:25-26, John 1:28, John 1:31, John 3:22-23, John 3:26, John 4:1-2, Acts 2:38, Act2 2:41, Acts 8:12-13, Acts 8:16, Acts 8:36, Acts 8:38, Acts 9:18, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 13:24, Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33, Acts 18:8, Acts 18:25, Acts 19:3-5, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-4, 1 Corinthians 15:29, Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 4:5, Colossians 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21.

Water and Holy Spirit … Mark 1:8-9, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16, Hebrews 6:2.

Water and Holy Spirit and fire … Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16,

A future situation = a fate … Matthew 20:22-23, Mark 10:38-39, Luke 12:50.

A shared situation … 1 Corinthians 10:2.

The body of Christ … 1 Corinthians 12:12-13

*** Baptized into the Body of Christ by one Spirit? Could MennoSota have made a good point after all? ***

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Old Testament references can be supplied as well, if anyone is interested.​

What of the baptism by spirit and of fire?

 

[atpollard]

What of the baptism by spirit and of fire?

[Mar 9:49 NASB] 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire.

[Luk 12:49-53 NASB] 49 "I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 "But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! 51 "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52 for from now on five [members] in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53 "They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

[Act 2:3, 16, 19 NASB] 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. ... 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: ... 19 'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW, BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.

[1Co 3:12-15 NASB] 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is [to be] revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

[Heb 12:26-29 NASB] 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN." 27 This [expression,] "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

[1Pe 1:6-9 NASB] 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, [being] more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

[Rev 3:18 NASB] 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and [that] the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
[Rev 4:5 NASB] 5 Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;
[Rev 8:5 NASB] 5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.
[Rev 19:12 NASB] 12 His eyes [are] a flame of fire, and on His head [are] many diadems; and He has a name written [on Him] which no one knows except Himself.

 

[Josiah]

Let us cut to the chase with this concept.

None of that which you report proves that it was the Holy Ghost who caused the physical manifestations or the mental, etc. changes in the person following.

It might be so, but it also might not be; and that is where the matter will always remain.

Exactly my point Albion. It's not about proving or having "evidence", it may be or it may not be.

This is always the "issue" with religious experience......


Someone (seemingly with sincerity and honesty) says she saw the Virgin Mary and She told her some things..... Someone says Jesus appeared to them and told them their loved one was in heaven..... Someone says they are speaking in tongues or delivering a divine prophecy.... Someone claims Jesus called them as an Apostle and told them to found a new denomination.... Is it possible? Well.... I can think of some situations in the Bible! But does that mean the experience is genuine?


Years ago, I met this lady who was a self proclaimed prophet. She also claimed to have the Gifts of apostleship, teaching, tongues and healing. Jesus and her had frequently personal talks in her kitchen. And she posted His words in mass emails (I was someone on the master list, I got these). Could it be? Is it actually the case?


All I can think of is two points:

"By their fruits you shall know them." Does this build up the church or just the person claiming to experience something, is the whole church benefiting? Is it LOVING?

"Is it true?" We are told over and over to watch out for false teachers, for those who teach outside the biblical/historic/traditional faith (As we delivered to you). Watch out for wolves in sheep's clothing. Whether they are nice and sincere and seemingly "genuine" and honest -OR NOT. We are to test the spirits. So, while I can't really deal with whether this woman saw Mary or not, I CAN evaluate what "she" supposedly said to her. While I can't know if someone is speaking in tougues, I can evaluate the interpretion (or repudiate if there is no such interpretation). Does it affirm the Gospel or undermine it? Does it glorify JESUS or ultimately self?






.

 

[Andrew]

This is always the "issue" with religious experience......


Someone (seemingly with sincerity and honesty) says she saw the Virgin Mary and She told her some things..... Someone says Jesus appeared to them and told them their loved one was in heaven..... Someone says they are speaking in tongues or delivering a divine prophecy.... Someone claims Jesus called them as an Apostle and told them to found a new denomination.... Is it possible? Well.... I can think of some situations in the Bible! But does that mean the experience is genuine?


Years ago, I met this lady who was a self proclaimed prophet. She also claimed to have the Gifts of apostleship, teaching, tongues and healing. Jesus and her had frequently personal talks in her kitchen. And she posted His words in mass emails (I was someone on the master list, I got these). Could it be? Is it actually the case?


All I can think of is two points:

"By their fruits you shall know them." Does this build up the church or just the person claiming to experience something, is the whole church benefiting? Is it LOVING?

"Is it true?" We are told over and over to watch out for false teachers, for those who teach outside the biblical/historic/traditional faith (As we delivered to you). Watch out for wolves in sheep's clothing. Whether they are nice and sincere and seemingly "genuine" and honest -OR NOT. We are to test the spirits. So, while I can't really deal with whether this woman saw Mary or not, I CAN evaluate what "she" supposedly said to her. While I can't know if someone is speaking in tougues, I can evaluate the interpretion (or repudiate if there is no such interpretation). Does it affirm the Gospel or undermine it? Does it glorify JESUS or ultimately self?






.

I just let them believe what they believe but yes people can tell you something because they think it's what you want to hear and claim its from the Lord. I made the mistake of telling someone that I felt compelled to crush a full pack of smokes and quit for good and they came back a few moments later with "the Lord just spoke to me and told me to tell you that your faith is not strong enough yet and that you just need to cut back and slowly tapper off"... So a week later when the temptation came back I gave in solely because I felt God excused me and that its ok "i can slow down", well I am back at smoking but I am getting on the patch, I wish I was never told this lie because I did have strong conviction to stop and I was fine with it until that person basically hindered it for me.
This other lady was having withdrawals from her psyche med because the church told her that she didn't need it, that God would heal her mental condition, turns out she got in a fight with her husband and the cops got involved... she asked them "why did you tell me to do this when it only got me in trouble?" and they still insisted that she stay off the meds... she began having visual side effects when she closed her eyes (I know what she is talking about, its a common withdrawal effect)... Well they told her that what she was experiencing was the glory of God.
It's a shame that people can be so full of themselves it actually causes others harm.
Now if someone claims that "God told me to tell you this" I just say 'ok' and leave them be without giving what they said a second thought.

 

[psalms 91]

I just let them believe what they believe but yes people can tell you something because they think it's what you want to hear and claim its from the Lord. I made the mistake of telling someone that I felt compelled to crush a full pack of smokes and quit for good and they came back a few moments later with "the Lord just spoke to me and told me to tell you that your faith is not strong enough yet and that you just need to cut back and slowly tapper off"... So a week later when the temptation came back I gave in solely because I felt God excused me and that its ok "i can slow down", well I am back at smoking but I am getting on the patch, I wish I was never told this lie because I did have strong conviction to stop and I was fine with it until that person basically hindered it for me.
This other lady was having withdrawals from her psyche med because the church told her that she didn't need it, that God would heal her mental condition, turns out she got in a fight with her husband and the cops got involved... she asked them "why did you tell me to do this when it only got me in trouble?" and they still insisted that she stay off the meds... she began having visual side effects when she closed her eyes (I know what she is talking about, its a common withdrawal effect)... Well they told her that what she was experiencing was the glory of God.
It's a shame that people can be so full of themselves it actually causes others harm.
Now if someone claims that "God told me to tell you this" I just say 'ok' and leave them be without giving what they said a second thought.

You also need to recognize that there are times that the Lord will speak through others, I agree do not blindly accept what is told you but try the spirits and see if there is a witness to it. A quick story, I was in a chuirch and a man stood up and said they were going to Georgia to relocate and my stomach just fell and I knew the Lord was telling me that it was wrong. He gave me a word for this person that if he went it would be hardship after hardship and would just get worse till he returned. I didnt know at the time that he was in a sinful relationship and he moved, he was back in six weeks because it was to hard as he faced one thing after another and he was by himself and in the process he had lost a lot because in order to go he had given up much. That is firsthand so I know that God speaks through others.

 

[Andrew]

You also need to recognize that there are times that the Lord will speak through others, I agree do not blindly accept what is told you but try the spirits and see if there is a witness to it. A quick story, I was in a chuirch and a man stood up and said they were going to Georgia to relocate and my stomach just fell and I knew the Lord was telling me that it was wrong. He gave me a word for this person that if he went it would be hardship after hardship and would just get worse till he returned. I didnt know at the time that he was in a sinful relationship and he moved, he was back in six weeks because it was to hard as he faced one thing after another and he was by himself and in the process he had lost a lot because in order to go he had given up much. That is firsthand so I know that God speaks through others.

Well obviously not in all cases. In my particular experience a friend told me all the things the lord had promised him that would take place in 6 months, none of it came true but again he was always a compulsive liar, so yes discernment is very necessary. Thanks for the story Psalms

 

[Pedrito]

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Andrew (Post #102):

What of the baptism by spirit and of fire?

I assume that the question means: “What are the baptism by spirit and the baptism of fire all about?”

Let’s look at the spirit references first.

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Every Greek text that I have looked at states in Matthew 3:11 and Luke 3:16: He will baptise you with "holy spirit" and with fire.

Mark 1:8, John 1:33, Acts 1:5 and Acts 11:16 all speak of baptising in "holy spirit”. (I put Hebrews 6:2 in the wrong list in Post #101 – it should have been in the “Water” list.)

If I’ve got it right, the one Greek word is variously translated as “with” or “by” or “in” in English. In the sense of being baptised (immersed), the translation “in” seems the most appropriate. The Holy Spirit is not being referred to here (although many translations say it is – I would suggest such translations are statements of theology as opposed to simple translation). John 1:33 makes that point very clear. It clearly differentiates between the Holy Spirit descending on Jesus, and Jesus baptising others in holy spirit.

Jesus baptises with “holy spirit”, which could well be described as a strengthening of a person’s deliberate change of heart or outlook (which could itself be described as repentance) when that person takes the step of accepting God’s free gift to them.

Much more could be said, but I’m running out of room.

I’ll look at the “fire” later.

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[Arsenios]

*** Baptized into the Body of Christ by one Spirit? Could MennoSota have made a good point after all? ***

The word of BY is the Greek word EN... Meaning IN...

The word BY is a false translation and a re-writing of the Bible...

We like to think of it as an "exegetical translation" because it re-writes the Bible to conform to one's preconceived exegesis of its theology...

There IS a translation that is non-exegetical:

https://www.newromepress.com/products/eob-new-testament-portable-edition-with-zippered-closure

The non-leather paperback edition has extensive notes but very small type...

I just ordered the leather yesterday as my small portable NT Bible...

It is hard to find a reliable translation...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

The word of BY is the Greek word EN... Meaning IN...

The word BY is a false translation and a re-writing of the Bible...

We like to think of it as an "exegetical translation" because it re-writes the Bible to conform to one's preconceived exegesis of its theology...

There IS a translation that is non-exegetical:

https://www.newromepress.com/products/eob-new-testament-portable-edition-with-zippered-closure

The non-leather paperback edition has extensive notes but very small type...

I just ordered the leather yesterday as my small portable NT Bible...

It is hard to find a reliable translation...


Arsenios

...meaning one that thinks like you do...