Jesus Christ, died for all

Josiah

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From post 113


[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]

Read what God literally says.... Read them all together....


1 John 2:2

Hebrews 2:9

Titus 2:11

1 Timothy 4:10

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

Acts 2:21

Isaiah 53:6

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:4

2 Peter 3:9

Read these.... together.... what impression do you get?

Now, consider, that in over 400 years, not one radical Calvinist has found even one verse that states Jesus died for only, exclusively, solely, just a limited few.

"Scripture interprets Scripture." Do these suggest that "world" here means "just a few in the world?" That "everybody" means "most not?"




.
 
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MennoSota

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Read what God literally says.... Read them all together....


1 John 2:2

Hebrews 2:9

Titus 2:11

1 Timothy 4:10

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

Acts 2:21

Isaiah 53:6

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:4

2 Peter 3:9

Read these.... together.... what impression do you get?

Now, consider, that in over 400 years, not one radical Calvinist has found even one verse that states Jesus died for only, exclusively, solely, just a limited few.

"Scripture interprets Scripture." Do these suggest that "world" here means "just a few in the world?" That "everybody" means "most not?"




.
Everyone of your passages have been answered and you have been shown your error in interpretation. I will not beat your dead horse.
 

atpollard

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God said ...

[Rom 9:19-24 NASB] 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

[shrug]
 

Andrew

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God said ...

[Rom 9:19-24 NASB] 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

[shrug]
Romans 9 puts a heavy emphasis on Gods sovereignty over his creation, if anything its man made religion that tries to push God into a box...
Would love to hear everyone's interpretation on this chapter in romans.
 

atpollard

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"Scripture interprets Scripture." Do these suggest that "world" here means "just a few in the world?" That "everybody" means "most not?"
Yes, let Scripture interpret scripture.

1 John 2:2
[1Jo 2:1-2, 19, 22-23, 26-27, 29 ESV] 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ... 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. ... 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. ... 26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie--just as it has taught you, abide in him. ... 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

Hebrews 2:9
[Heb 2:2-3, 9-11, 13-15, 17 ESV] 2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, ... 9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, ... 13 And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again, "Behold, I and the children God has given me." 14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. ... 17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Titus 2:11
[Tit 2:11-14 ESV] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

1 Timothy 4:10
[1Ti 1:15-16 ESV] 15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.

[1Ti 4:10 ESV] 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

John 3:14-16
[Jhn 3:14-20 ESV] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

John 4:42
[Jhn 4:9, 20-22, 42 ESV] 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?" (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) ... 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship." 21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. ... 42 They said to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world."

Now, consider, that in over 400 years, not one radical Calvinist has found even one verse that states Jesus died for only, exclusively, solely, just a limited few.

(Sorry, bed time).
 

MennoSota

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Romans 9 puts a heavy emphasis on Gods sovereignty over his creation, if anything its man made religion that tries to push God into a box...
Would love to hear everyone's interpretation on this chapter in romans.
.
5528560dcb6cded6b19d4e3f588324ce.jpg
 

Andrew

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Just watched a short video from piper concerning if you should go up to a person and say "Jesus died for you", he says that's not the gospel, he says what you should say is "Jesus died for sinners, and If you can believe it you can have it!" its also a deeper and more meaningful approach imo.
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:



1 John 2:2

Hebrews 2:9

Titus 2:11

1 Timothy 4:10

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

Acts 2:21

Isaiah 53:6

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:4

2 Peter 3:9

Read these.... together....

Now, consider, that in over 400 years, not one radical Calvinist has found even one verse that states Jesus died for only, exclusively, solely, just a limited few.




.

Everyone of your passages have been answered


You have evaded them.... you have "spun" them 180 degrees so that via absurd, radical eisegesis, you claim they MEAN the exact opposite of what they all say, trashing so many Scriptures....

Meanwhile, you can't find even one verse that says Jesus died for ONLY a few. Not one.





.
 

Josiah

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.

What does GOD say?


1 John 2:2, "Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."
OURS.... and not ONLY ours.... ALSO for the sins of "the whole world" NOT, "For a small part of the world."


Hebrews 2:9 "....Jesus tasted death for everyone."
EVERYONE.... not "just for a few"


1 Timothy 4:10 "...For Christ is the Savior of all people, especially those who believe."
Not "of only a few people but not most." "Especially for those who believe" because via faith, it is received by the individual (subjective justification).


Isaiah 53:6, "... and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all"
This prophecy is of Jesus... for those who have sin, Jesus died. For all of them. NOT "Not for all but only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few."


John 4:42, ".... for Jesus is indeed the Savior of the world."
World. Not "of a tiny few who happen to be in the world." The verse makes no sense at all if it means only "the chosen" since the woman saying this was not a Jew and thus would not understand herself as chosen.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15, "That one had died for all.... that one has died for all."
Not "NOT for all but only, solely, exclusively, just for a limited FEW."


1 Timothy 4:6, "Who gave Himself as a random for all."
NOT, "Not for all but only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few - and odds are, that's not you."


John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son .... whosoever believes....."
NOT, "For God so loved only, exclusively, solely, just a tiny few who happen to be in the world....." NOT "whosoever believes but ONLY if Jesus actually died for them which He probably didn't."


And so many, many more...


Now.... for 400 + years, radical Calvinists have been "spinning" these with perhaps the most radical eisegesis possible, spinning them to say the exact opposite of what these many verses say....

And for 400 + years, radical Calvinists have been asked for a verse.... even just one.... anywhere.... that states that Jesus died for ONLY a few. But in 400 + years, not one of them has been able to find any such verse. Nothing. Not one. All they can do is quote a verse and INSERT the word "only" into it so as to reverse what it says.


So.... we have SO many verses that specifically say Jesus died for "everyone" "the whole world" "all" but not one verse that says that's not true, Jesus died ONLY for a few.



So much for the "L" of TULIP, that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few.






.
 

MennoSota

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You have evaded them.... you have "spun" them 180 degrees so that via absurd, radical eisegesis, you claim they MEAN the exact opposite of what they all say, trashing so many Scriptures....

Meanwhile, you can't find even one verse that says Jesus died for ONLY a few. Not one.





.
All the passages have been addressed. You are a straw man typing.
 

Josiah

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1Jo 2:1-2, 19, 22-23, 26-27, 29 ESV 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ... 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. ... 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. ... 26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie--just as it has taught you, abide in him. ... 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.


Yup. Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Now, you added things, all wonderful, and none of it said "actually NOT also for the sins of the whole world but only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few."

Now, true, not "all" are justified.... but that's not the issue, the issue is the "L" of TULIP, that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few....



atpollard said:
Heb 2:2-3, 9-11, 13-15, 17 ESV 2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, ... 9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, ... 13 And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again, "Behold, I and the children God has given me." 14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. ... 17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.


Once again, confirming my point. Yes, just as the text says, Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Yup.

Now, everyone agrees, not everyone is thus saved (faith is required for that) but nowhere does the text remotely state, "But actually Jesus did NOT taste death for everyone but only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few (and odds are, that's not you). The "L" position is entirely missing and the exact opposite is stated. There's NOTHING in this text that reverses Jesus' death "for everyone."




atpollard said:
[1Ti 4:10 ESV] 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.


Yes, His death is for "all people" (not "for only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few and probably not you."

Yes, I gave this verse because it notes what we all agree upon, this is credited where there is faith - so justification is where faith is. But Jesus is the Savior of all because He died for all, as the Bible so often states.

And where does this state, "Jesus died NOT for all but ONLY, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few (and odds are, that's not you):? It's not there. Your dogma is entirely missing.




atpollard said:
[Jhn 3:14-20 ESV] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light[/U], lest his works should be exposed.


Right. "The world." It does not say, He came and died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY JUST a LIMITED few (and that's probably not you).

Now, you go on to stress MY point: the variant in justification is not Jesus but faith, not the Cross but belief, Everyone agrees not all are justified, but nearly everyone disagrees with the new, radical, latter-day Calvinist invention that it's because Jesus did not die for all, did not come for all.... that for most, there is the proclaimation of a false gospel because for them, Jesus has NOTHING to offer - if they have faith in Christ, they are trusting something nonexistent for them, a cruel joke.

I gave an entire post responding to your treatment to this text.... but I think you didn't see it. It's post # 76

Traditional Christianity states what the Bible does: God loves all.... Christ came for all.... Jesus died for all (and in that sense is the REAL and ACTUAL Savior).... those with faith apprehend/embrace/claim/trust/rely on that and thus it is applied to that individual. The Ecumenical Council of Orange fully embraces Election (singular) and places it on whether faith is given, not whether Christ is amiss.




atpollard said:
[Jhn 4:9, 20-22, 42 ESV] 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) ... 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship." 21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. ... 42 They said to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world."


Exactly! Of the WORLD! She was a Samaritan, who would not be considered "chosen", not His people. And yet, she knows she is included because Jesus is for the whole world. She's "in" because everyone is. Jesus died for all - and so even a Samaritan woman KNOWS He is offering her something REAL (not a fake, not a cruel joke, not some pretense that actually will do HER no good).

And where does it say, ".... for I know that You are ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few and thus likely not me?" Isn't the whole point of her being a samaritan exactly the opposite? This whole encounter makes no sense at all if she believes Jesus is only for the chosen few.





I think if anyone actually reads the following verses, without any agenda, reads them together, the teaching is obvious and undeniable. ANYTHING can be spun to "mean" the exact opposite of what the words say, but I hope we both reject that rubric.




1 John 2:2

Hebrews 2:9

Titus 2:11

1 Timothy 4:10

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

Acts 2:21

Isaiah 53:6

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:4

2 Peter 3:9



and of course note, there is no verse that states that Jesus died for ONLY a few (with the words meaning that or otherwise).... the dogma is simply missing. Most Calvinists are honest to admit that.





.
 
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Yup. Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Now, you added things, all wonderful, and none of it said "actually NOT also for the sins of the whole world but only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few."

Now, true, not "all" are justified.... but that's not the issue, the issue is the "L" of TULIP, that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few....






Once again, confirming my point. Yes, just as the text says, Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Yup.

Now, everyone agrees, not everyone is thus saved (faith is required for that) but nowhere does the text remotely state, "But actually Jesus did NOT taste death for everyone but only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few (and odds are, that's not you). The "L" position is entirely missing and the exact opposite is stated. There's NOTHING in this text that reverses Jesus' death "for everyone."







Yes, His death is for "all people" (not "for only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few and probably not you."

Yes, I gave this verse because it notes what we all agree upon, this is credited where there is faith - so justification is where faith is. But Jesus is the Savior of all because He died for all, as the Bible so often states.

And where does this state, "Jesus died NOT for all but ONLY, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few (and odds are, that's not you):? It's not there. Your dogma is entirely missing.







Right. "The world." It does not say, He came and died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY JUST a LIMITED few (and that's probably not you).

Now, you go on to stress MY point: the variant in justification is not Jesus but faith, not the Cross but belief, Everyone agrees not all are justified, but nearly everyone disagrees with the new, radical, latter-day Calvinist invention that it's because Jesus did not die for all, did not come for all.... that for most, there is the proclaimation of a false gospel because for them, Jesus has NOTHING to offer - if they have faith in Christ, they are trusting something nonexistent for them, a cruel joke.

I gave an entire post responding to your treatment to this text.... but I think you didn't see it. It's post # 76

Traditional Christianity states what the Bible does: God loves all.... Christ came for all.... Jesus died for all (and in that sense is the REAL and ACTUAL Savior).... those with faith apprehend/embrace/claim/trust/rely on that and thus it is applied to that individual. The Ecumenical Council of Orange fully embraces Election (singular) and places it on whether faith is given, not whether Christ is amiss.







Exactly! Of the WORLD! She was a Samaritan, who would not be considered "chosen", not His people. And yet, she knows she is included because Jesus is for the whole world. She's "in" because everyone is. Jesus died for all - and so even a Samaritan woman KNOWS He is offering her something REAL (not a fake, not a cruel joke, not some pretense that actually will do HER no good).

And where does it say, ".... for I know that You are ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few and thus likely not me?" Isn't the whole point of her being a samaritan exactly the opposite? This whole encounter makes no sense at all if she believes Jesus is only for the chosen few.





.
Straw man...
 

Josiah

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Straw man...


Necessary evasion...

The issue here is simple: Did Jesus die for all OR for only, exclusively, solely, just a limited few.

YOU stated that the "L" in the Calvinist denomination tradition is (and I verbatim quote you) that "Jesus died for only the church." And your position is confirmed by every Calvinist website I can find (I've quoted several for you) and by my Reformed doctrine books. You're right about this, the "L" is what you said: "Jesus died only for the church."

It seems suddenly you want to run from this dogma (can't blame you) but you screaming "straw man" is just silly. And everyone knows it, my friend.




.
 

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Necessary evasion...

The issue here is simple: Did Jesus die for all OR for only, exclusively, solely, just a limited few.

YOU stated that the "L" in the Calvinist denomination tradition is (and I verbatim quote you) that "Jesus died for only the church." And your position is confirmed by every Calvinist website I can find (I've quoted several for you) and by my Reformed doctrine books. You're right about this, the "L" is what you said: "Jesus died only for the church."

It seems suddenly you want to run from this dogma (can't blame you) but you screaming "straw man" is just silly. And everyone knows it, my friend.




.
Nah. We have shared. You reject our position. We are not the ones who are teaching a contradiction as you do. That's all on you to deal with your massive contradiction.
 

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Yes, let Scripture interpret scripture.


[1Jo 2:1-2, 19, 22-23, 26-27, 29 ESV] 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. ... 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. ... 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. ... 26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie--just as it has taught you, abide in him. ... 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.


[Heb 2:2-3, 9-11, 13-15, 17 ESV] 2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, ... 9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, ... 13 And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again, "Behold, I and the children God has given me." 14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. ... 17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.


[Tit 2:11-14 ESV] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.


[1Ti 1:15-16 ESV] 15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.

[1Ti 4:10 ESV] 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.


[Jhn 3:14-20 ESV] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.


[Jhn 4:9, 20-22, 42 ESV] 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?" (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) ... 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship." 21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. ... 42 They said to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world."



(Sorry, bed time).

That John 3:18 really hits the nail on the head, yes Christ came to save Gods people, those who believe, those who do not are already condemned, for Christ did not come to condemn the world but to save his sheep.
 

MoreCoffee

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That John 3:18 really hits the nail on the head, yes Christ came to save Gods people, those who believe, those who do not are already condemned, for Christ did not come to condemn the world but to save his sheep.

'tis a pity that the holy scripture says it differently from you; you say that the Lord came to save his sheep [alone] yet the verse before the one that you cite says that Christ came to save the world. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (John 3:17); that John 3:17 really hits the nail on the head, Christ came to save the world not to condemn it.
 

Andrew

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Yup. Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Now, you added things, all wonderful, and none of it said "actually NOT also for the sins of the whole world but only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few."

Now, true, not "all" are justified.... but that's not the issue, the issue is the "L" of TULIP, that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few....






Once again, confirming my point. Yes, just as the text says, Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Yup.

Now, everyone agrees, not everyone is thus saved (faith is required for that) but nowhere does the text remotely state, "But actually Jesus did NOT taste death for everyone but only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few (and odds are, that's not you). The "L" position is entirely missing and the exact opposite is stated. There's NOTHING in this text that reverses Jesus' death "for everyone."







Yes, His death is for "all people" (not "for only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few and probably not you."

Yes, I gave this verse because it notes what we all agree upon, this is credited where there is faith - so justification is where faith is. But Jesus is the Savior of all because He died for all, as the Bible so often states.

And where does this state, "Jesus died NOT for all but ONLY, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few (and odds are, that's not you):? It's not there. Your dogma is entirely missing.







Right. "The world." It does not say, He came and died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY JUST a LIMITED few (and that's probably not you).

Now, you go on to stress MY point: the variant in justification is not Jesus but faith, not the Cross but belief, Everyone agrees not all are justified, but nearly everyone disagrees with the new, radical, latter-day Calvinist invention that it's because Jesus did not die for all, did not come for all.... that for most, there is the proclaimation of a false gospel because for them, Jesus has NOTHING to offer - if they have faith in Christ, they are trusting something nonexistent for them, a cruel joke.

I gave an entire post responding to your treatment to this text.... but I think you didn't see it. It's post # 76

Traditional Christianity states what the Bible does: God loves all.... Christ came for all.... Jesus died for all (and in that sense is the REAL and ACTUAL Savior).... those with faith apprehend/embrace/claim/trust/rely on that and thus it is applied to that individual. The Ecumenical Council of Orange fully embraces Election (singular) and places it on whether faith is given, not whether Christ is amiss.







Exactly! Of the WORLD! She was a Samaritan, who would not be considered "chosen", not His people. And yet, she knows she is included because Jesus is for the whole world. She's "in" because everyone is. Jesus died for all - and so even a Samaritan woman KNOWS He is offering her something REAL (not a fake, not a cruel joke, not some pretense that actually will do HER no good).

And where does it say, ".... for I know that You are ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few and thus likely not me?" Isn't the whole point of her being a samaritan exactly the opposite? This whole encounter makes no sense at all if she believes Jesus is only for the chosen few.





I think if anyone actually reads the following verses, without any agenda, reads them together, the teaching is obvious and undeniable. ANYTHING can be spun to "mean" the exact opposite of what the words say, but I hope we both reject that rubric.




1 John 2:2

Hebrews 2:9

Titus 2:11

1 Timothy 4:10

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

Acts 2:21

Isaiah 53:6

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:4

2 Peter 3:9



and of course note, there is no verse that states that Jesus died for ONLY a few (with the words meaning that or otherwise).... the dogma is simply missing. Most Calvinists are honest to admit that.





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If God can reveal to John the things to come and he reveals to him that all sinners who remain dead in their sins will face a second death, shouldn't that tell you that he already knows who is written in the lambs book of life since the beginning and likewise who is not?
Revelation tells us that not everyone will join Christ in Heaven nor on Earth, that there is a second death for those who are condemned due to their sinfulness as God will judge based on their deeds... you must understand that pure evil exist and that it has already been defeated, it's all a matter of time.
Every Christian knows this deep down, it's hard to swallow that God hated Esau before he was born or that God hardened Pharaohs heart or made good from Joseph's brothers evil conspiracy.
Reformed theology does not mean that there is no mystery left, God forbid, it just means that we have to take the bible at a none philosophical approach and give in to Gods Sovereign Mystery of what he has merely allowed us to understand in the Bible... The pages of Gods mystery are eternal, our little 3 pound brains just cannot conceive it.
Calvin never taught the term double predestination nor did he come up with TULIP, but note that even Calvin states that the "gate of salvation is open to all believers" something I believe you two can agree on...
 

MoreCoffee

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If God can reveal to John the things to come and he reveals to him that all sinners who remain dead in their sins will face a second death, shouldn't that tell you that he already knows who is written in the lambs book of life since the beginning and likewise who is not?
Revelation tells us that not everyone will join Christ in Heaven nor on Earth, that there is a second death for those who are condemned due to their sinfulness as God will judge based on their deeds... you must understand that pure evil exist and that it has already been defeated, it's all a matter of time.
Every Christian knows this deep down, it's hard to swallow that God hated Esau before he was born or that God hardened Pharaohs heart or made good from Joseph's brothers evil conspiracy.
Reformed theology does not mean that there is no mystery left, God forbid, it just means that we have to take the bible at a none philosophical approach and give in to Gods Sovereign Mystery of what he has merely allowed us to understand in the Bible... The pages of Gods mystery are eternal, our little 3 pound brains just cannot conceive it.
Calvin never taught the term double predestination nor did he come up with TULIP, but note that even Calvin states that the "gate of salvation is open to all believers" something I believe you two can agree on...

Anybody who wants to become a Calvinist and defend TULIP is welcome to do so but they will not have anything from holy scripture compelling them to do so. The holy scriptures say that Christ died for the whole world.
 

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'tis a pity that the holy scripture says it differently from you; you say that the Lord came to save his sheep [alone] yet the verse before the one that you cite says that Christ came to save the world. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (John 3:17); that John 3:17 really hits the nail on the head, Christ came to save the world not to condemn it.

In relation to 3:18 MC, those of the world are already condemned due to mans fallen nature, Christ came to save the flock, sparing none, is the whole world his flock? Why is there then a hell?
 
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