Jesus Christ, died for all

[Andrew]

Anybody who wants to become a Calvinist and defend TULIP is welcome to do so but they will not have anything from holy scripture compelling them to do so. The holy scriptures say that Christ died for the whole world.

Im not defending TULIP or Calvinism, I'm just agreeing on what the Bible tells us and what you and I and all believers already know. Jesus came to do the will of his Father, to redeem his people whom God has given to Christ and who are covered in the blood of his sacrifice, for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin...
I am not opposing or imposing against you or any denomination MC, we are all of one accord in Christ Jesus and I have nothing but respect and joy that none of Gods sheep are counted short.
All whom God calls WILL come forth, every believer IS the Elect, and the atonement IS for them who are called forth...

 

[Andrew]

you say that the Lord came to save his sheep

100%

yet the verse before the one that you cite says that Christ came to save the world.

"World" can mean many things, one being "cosmos", which he WILL save.
Imagine if everyone got to take freely of the Tree of Life, that would send the cosmos hurdling into chaos... there is wise reason why God set aside Hell for the devil and his angels, they need to be separated from the Elect for all eternity. I am at heart an absolutest, I believe that they will have their 'part' in the lake of fire and face the second death which is 'no eternity' in flesh nor a spiritual body in the cosmos (no hell -as it is thrown into the second death to 'perish') and will have no eternal life in them.
Evil will have no stay in the cosmos in other words as Earth and Heaven shall be undivided but hell will be no more (the wiping away of tears, no death)... I wish not to be debated on this here, we can pm or start another thread but it's just my personal understanding of "destroyed".

 

[MoreCoffee]

'tis a pity that the holy scripture says it differently from you; you say that the Lord came to save his sheep [alone] yet the verse before the one that you cite says that Christ came to save the world. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (John 3:17); that John 3:17 really hits the nail on the head, Christ came to save the world not to condemn it.

In relation to 3:18 MC, those of the world are already condemned due to mans fallen nature, Christ came to save the flock, sparing none, is the whole world his flock? Why is there then a hell?

If you just quoted holy scripture instead of offering your slant on what it says then there'd be no dispute between us but you do not do that you keep offering your view of its meaning as if that is what the holy scriptures really say. It is, of course, not so.

 

[Andrew]

If you just quoted holy scripture instead of offering your slant on what it says then there'd be no dispute between us but you do not do that you keep offering your view of its meaning as if that is what the holy scriptures really say. It is, of course, not so.

How can Jesus save anyone from their sin without the shedding of blood? You act as if they are two different personalities of the atonement, there is only atonement you see.
Saying he died.. is the same as saying that he atoned.. and for who? Those whom God has given for atonement, his flock.

 

[Josiah]

How can Jesus save anyone from their sin without the shedding of blood? You act as if they are two different personalities of the atonement, there is only atonement you see.
Saying he died.. is the same as saying that he atoned.. and for who? Those whom God has given for atonement, his flock.

Yes, to be the Savior of "everyone" and to be the propitiation for "everyone" He had to die for the whole world. Exactly as the Bible so often, so clearly says.

Now, does that mean everyone benefits from this? Of course not, because it is apprehended to individuals via faith, and of course, not all have faith.

 

[Josiah]

That John 3:18 really hits the nail on the head, yes Christ came to save Gods people, those who believe, those who do not are already condemned, for Christ did not come to condemn the world but to save his sheep.

Nope.

John 3:18 says NOTHING about Jesus dying only, exclusively, solely, just for a FEW (and odds are, not you or me). It says those WHO BELIEVE benefit from what Christ did, and those who do not, do not. The issue, according to this verse, is the presence or absence of faith, NOT whether Jesus died for them or did not.

The dogma of the "L" of TULIP is entirely missing from John 3:18 and indeed from the entire Bible. NOTHING about Jesus dying for only, exclusively, solely, just for a few. Indeed, the Bible over and over states the opposite.

 

[Andrew]

Yes, to be the Savior of "everyone" and to be the propitiation for "everyone" He had to die for the whole world. Exactly as the Bible so often, so clearly says.

Now, does that mean everyone benefits from this? Of course not, because it is apprehended to individuals via faith, and of course, not all have faith.

Not one can have faith unless it's God given.
Does the world have a different sin than you and me? It's the same sin, sin IS sin, so yes Jesus died for that sin, the Sin of the world, he tasted the death of death and he has chosen to redeem many from that death, these many are called the Elect.
Gods people have been glorified righteously throughout the bible, his people glorify him, Gods people are still continuing as "foreigners in a strange land" it hasn't changed, these are the people whom God has predestined.

 

[atpollard]

So much for the "L" of TULIP, that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few.

Since the rest of the surrounding verses that provide CONTEXT mean nothing, let’s take a different approach ...

[Mat 7:23 NIV] 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

If he NEVER knew you, he didn’t die for your sins.

 

[MoreCoffee]

How can Jesus save anyone from their sin without the shedding of blood? You act as if they are two different personalities of the atonement, there is only atonement you see.
Saying he died.. is the same as saying that he atoned.. and for who? Those whom God has given for atonement, his flock.

Saying that Christ died for the sins of the whole world is quoting from holy scripture. Denying it is playing around with questionable theology. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. (I John 2:2)

 

[atpollard]

'tis a pity that the holy scripture says it differently from you; you say that the Lord came to save his sheep [alone] yet the verse before the one that you cite says that Christ came to save the world. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (John 3:17); that John 3:17 really hits the nail on the head, Christ came to save the world not to condemn it.

...and failed epically.

[Mat 7:13-14 NIV] 13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[Mat 22:14 NIV] 14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

 

[MennoSota]

Anybody who wants to become a Calvinist and defend TULIP is welcome to do so but they will not have anything from holy scripture compelling them to do so. The holy scriptures say that Christ died for the whole world.

No
This is ironic coming from a person who values his catechism over God's word.
It has been clearly shown to you in scripture how your interpretation of verses is poorly contrived. You simply persist in your lie.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, to be the Savior of "everyone" and to be the propitiation for "everyone" He had to die for the whole world. Exactly as the Bible so often, so clearly says.

Now, does that mean everyone benefits from this? Of course not, because it is apprehended to individuals via faith, and of course, not all have faith.

You have no clue that you are preaching universalism. You seem blind to what atonement means.

 

[Andrew]

Nope.

John 3:18 says NOTHING about Jesus dying only, exclusively, solely, just for a FEW (and odds are, not you or me). It says those WHO BELIEVE benefit from what Christ did, and those who do not, do not. The issue, according to this verse, is the presence or absence of faith, NOT whether Jesus died for them or did not.

The dogma of the "L" of TULIP is entirely missing from John 3:18 and indeed from the entire Bible. NOTHING about Jesus dying for only, exclusively, solely, just for a few. Indeed, the Bible over and over states the opposite.

Why do you say "and odds are not you and me?" limited and many are the same thing in this very context. I am a believer, you are a believer, why say 'probably not for us?'.

 

[MennoSota]

Why do you say "and odds are not you and me?" limited and many are the same thing in this very context. I am a believer, you are a believer, why say 'probably not for us?'.

Josiah puts all the weight of salvation on the act of faith. He cares nothing about God being an unjust judge when he declares that God does not send sinners to hell, but instead God sends the perfectly righteous and holy person to hell merely because that person was incapable of believing.
In Josiah's theology, humans, made perfect by Jesus shed blood, are thrown into hell only because they didn't have faith, not because they were sinners. In Josiah's theology, there are no sinners. All are made perfect by Jesus sacrifice. But...not all are justified because not all are given faith.
Non justified perfect beings get thrown into hell, according to Josiah.

 

[Lamb]

Josiah puts all the weight of salvation on the act of faith. He cares nothing about God being an unjust judge when he declares that God does not send sinners to hell, but instead God sends the perfectly righteous and holy person to hell merely because that person was incapable of believing.
In Josiah's theology, humans, made perfect by Jesus shed blood, are thrown into hell only because they didn't have faith, not because they were sinners. In Josiah's theology, there are no sinners. All are made perfect by Jesus sacrifice. But...not all are justified because not all are given faith.
Non justified perfect beings get thrown into hell, according to Josiah.

God is NOT sending a righteous person to hell. Those who do not have faith when they die go to hell because of their sins...because they reject the righteousness Jesus won for them at the cross. They refuse it. God judges them on their own works.

 

[atpollard]

God is NOT sending a righteous person to hell. Those who do not have faith when they die go to hell because of their sins...because they reject the righteousness Jesus won for them at the cross. They refuse it. God judges them on their own works.

You must see that if God judges them for a sin, then that sin for which they are judged was not forgiven on the cross. A forgiven sin cannot be judged ... it was forgiven (that is why Jesus bore the judgement for OUR sins).

That is why we say "The Cross was SUFFICIENT for all, and EFFECTIVE for the chosen." The Cross COULD have forgiven all sins, and it DID forgive all of the sins of God's children. The Cross DID NOT forgive the sins that God will punish in Hell.
[John 3:18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

[MennoSota]

God is NOT sending a righteous person to hell. Those who do not have faith when they die go to hell because of their sins...because they reject the righteousness Jesus won for them at the cross. They refuse it. God judges them on their own works.

What you are saying is that Jesus made them perfect, righteous and holy. This is how God views ALL humanity.
But...
There is ONE sin that Jesus failed to atone in his sacrifice. That ONE sin is the sin of not believing the contract God wrote in blood that took away their sins.
You place the entire burden for salvation upon the shoulders of the human. They reject the covenant and thus....though they are judged to be as white as snow...they are condemned because of their free will rejection.
The only work they are condemned for is the willful decision to not believe the contract God made with them is valid. Otherwise they are perfect and spotless.

 

[Josiah]

You place the entire burden for salvation upon the shoulders of the human.

This is a common ploy of yours when you have no other "card" to play.... you accuse people of some silly thing they NEVER REMOTELY SAID and CLEARLY don't believe.... you slander the silly view you invented... and then hold that if that position (no one stated) is wrong, ergo you must be right. Bad logic, my friend. Absurd apologetics.


And you love to play "the shell game." When you feel trapped, you just change the subject. There is ONE and ONLY ONE exclusive issue in this thread: The claim of you and a tiny number of latter-day extreme Calvnists that Jesus died for ONLY a few, ONLY the church, ONLY the elect (the "L" of TULIP) contrasting with the position of tradtional, orthodox, biblical Christianity that Jesus died for all, the everyone. Folks have given you many, many verses that verbatim state the traditional view.... and you have been unable to produce even one Scripture that states the new tradition of one denomination, not one verse about Jesus dying that even has any words like "only" "exclusively" "solely" "just". Nope, not one. You parrot the (almost universally rejected) tradition of your denomination, you try to spin 180 degrees all the Scriptures that obviously flat-out contradict it, but offer not one Scripture that states it. Thus, all the false accusations about what others believe.... the constant shell game.




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[Josiah]

If God can reveal to John the things to come and he reveals to him that all sinners who remain dead in their sins will face a second death, shouldn't that tell you that he already knows who is written in the lambs book of life since the beginning and likewise who is not?
Revelation tells us that not everyone will join Christ in Heaven nor on Earth, that there is a second death for those who are condemned due to their sinfulness as God will judge based on their deeds... you must understand that pure evil exist and that it has already been defeated, it's all a matter of time.
Every Christian knows this deep down, it's hard to swallow that God hated Esau before he was born or that God hardened Pharaohs heart or made good from Joseph's brothers evil conspiracy.
Reformed theology does not mean that there is no mystery left, God forbid, it just means that we have to take the bible at a none philosophical approach and give in to Gods Sovereign Mystery of what he has merely allowed us to understand in the Bible... The pages of Gods mystery are eternal, our little 3 pound brains just cannot conceive it.

I agree.

But how does that prove that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few (and thus, odds are, not you or me)?

How does that make all the Scriptures I've shared with you wrong, and Jesus did NOT die for all but only for a few?

Calvin never taught the term double predestination nor did he come up with TULIP, but note that even Calvin states that the "gate of salvation is open to all believers"

1. There ARE Calvinists (IMO, most) who will argue that TULIP is NOT something Calvin taught (or even would agree with).... that it was invented by a FEW latter-day extreme Calvinists, motivated solely by disagreeing with anything radical Arminianits taught (whether right or wrong)... a tiny few latter-day Calvinists who simply took what is good and true and biblical - and took it too far until it runs head on into Scripture... what Calvin meant to be comforting and turned it into a terror. My wife's family (all Reformed) are of this view.


2. The issue here is not whether all are saved, it's whether Jesus died for all or for only a few (and thus likely not you or me). For radical Calvinists, they are the same thing because they tend to delete faith and repudiate Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (it's way much of radical Calvinism ended up in Universalism). But for the rest of us (and I think that's over 99%), they are not the same issue because we do not delete faith, we do not hold faith to be irrelevant and moot and meaningless. The traditional, orthodox view is that Jesus died for all (creating something REAL) and that this is applied to the individual, it is apprehended/embraced/relied up via the divine gift of faith. This is why in traditional Christianity, Election deals with faith, not the Cross.


I hope that helps.



- Josiah






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[Lamb]

John 3:18 "Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."