Jesus Christ, died for all

[MennoSota]

Well, not for you.

But YOU stated that the dogma of the "L" is "Jesus died only for the church." And every conservative Reformed website I can find fully agrees with you: that is the meaning, the teaching of the "L." And the two Reformed doctrine books I have state that the meaning, the teaching of the "L" is that Jesus died for ONLY the elect.

Everyone except for a tiny few extreme Calvinists for the last 400 or so years disagrees with that.

So that IS the debate of the "L".


Many of us have given you many Scriptures that clearly contradict this weird invention of a few latter-day radical Calvinists, this denomination tradition. You have had to delete all the words that prove you wrong and replace them with the opposite to avoid these. And you have been asked to present even one verse that states Jesus died ONLY for the few, the elect, the church ("ONLY" being the essential word since it IS the dogma) but you can't do it, no Calvinists in 400+ years has been able to do this (and we both know why, don't we?)







We know. The "L" is that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the Elect... a few.

It is a denominational tradition invented in the late 16th Century by a tiny few latter-day radical Calvinists. It's just that the Bible teaches the opposite and as you've proven, no Calvinists in over 400 years has been able to find even one Scripture that states this, just a long list of Scriptures that teach the opposite.

YOU insist we MUST reject all denominational tradition and consider ONLY the words of Scripture.... but all you do is parrot a new denominational tradition, disregard all Scripture that teaches the opposite and don't seem to care if any Scripture actually teaches your denomination tradition.







Oh, I could quote many radical Calvinists that do... I recall one at CH who constantly noted that "God is equally glorified by those in heaven and those in hell." But let's move on...

Part of the "L" argument is that God does NOT desire most to repent, most to be justified, most to go to heaven..... This in spite of Scripture stating the exact opposite.







AGAIN, this has been answered over and over and over and over.... but you dismiss anything that embraces faith. I will not delete faith, I will not repudiate Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. And thus no response I give will be considered by you.

The position of historic, biblical Christianity is that Jesus died for everyone (as the Bible says).... and that faith apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies on such and via faith the individual benefits from His atoning work. NO, it is NOT simply a fact that Christ died for them IRREGARDLESS OF FAITH (your deleting of faith is what lead many radical TULIP Calvinists to universalism), I will not delete faith, I will not regard faith as irrelevant and meaningless and worthless, I will NOT delete Sola Fide from the biblical position.

Now, where is the verse that states that if Jesus died for everyone, thus everyone is saved REGARDLESS of whether they have faith or not.... or that some are not saved REGARDLESS of whether they have faith or not if Jesus didn't die for them? Your premise (as several have pointed out to you) is absurd, illogical and certianly unbiblical.




.

Josiah, when Jesus sacrificially died, did he atone for (make holy and righteous) all humanities sins (universally) or did he atone for those who would believe?

This is the question regarding Jesus death. You refuse to address that specific question. Sad.

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[Josiah]

Josiah, when Jesus sacrificially died, did he atone for (make holy and righteous) all humanities sins (universally) or did he atone for those who would believe?

This is the question regarding Jesus death. You refuse to address that specific question. Sad.

doubting you'll read or consider this.... so wasting my time....


Again.... yet again.... still one more time (as if it mattered to you)..... YES, Jesus died for all. YES, it was not worthless. YES, He is the sacrifice for all as the Bible states. YOU impose a silly, illogical and quite absurd assumption that if something is offered, THEREFORE it is a mandate that it is received... and to support this illogical silky assumption, you must repudiate Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, you must do as radical Calvinists tend to do, delete faith, regard faith as irrelevant in soteriology (which is why so many radical Calvinists ended up in universalism). So again.... as many have posted.... repeatedly..... YES, Jesus died for all, just as the Bible says (and yes, some equate this with the term "atonement"), yes He is the sacifice f0or all as the Bible says.... but you SILLY assumption that THEREFORE all MUST be saved is wrong. It's illogical and absurd. And depends on deleting faith.


We have tried very which way to explain this to you... and you never engage. We have given SO many Scriptures and you always ignore them. YES, Jesus died for all (and thus that is universal atonement, defining "atonement" as Reformed tend to do)... but NO, that does NOT mean ERGO all have the benefit or ever did have the benefit (silly the TULIP claim that "God takes back")... it is not received by the individual unless there is faith; unlike universalists (which tend to be former radical Calvinists), THERE IS NO FAITHLESS SALVATION. And no.... NO non-radical TULIP Calvinists... NONE of them is going to buy into your faithless soteriology, your silly premise that if Jesus died for all, ergo all are justified/saved. Yes, the full sacrifice has been offered to God and is "there" for all.... but it benefits the individual via faith, the divine gift of faith... there is no faithless soteriology.


Again, yet again, we have explain that the Bible is NOT contradicting itself or lying.... there is no "dilema" as you insist (by refusing to consider faith). NONE. Again, let's say I buy a Starbucks Gift Card for all here at CH. It is paid for. For all. Now, lets say you never use it. Do you thus benefit from it? If coffee is not immediately pouring down your gullet NO MATTER WHAT, does that prove that the card is a fake, a fraud, a cruel joke, a lie? Does it prove that actually I gave fake cards to those who never benefited from it? No. Your whole presemise here is silly and illogical. It only means you never apprehended/embraced/trusted/relied upon it - AND THEREFORE never personally benefited. The card is GOOD, paid for,real, genuine... and for all. It doesn't benefit all simply because not all used it. THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION... there is no delema.... your eliminating faith simply creates a FALSE, unbiblical senario. In this example (and in the others offered to you), all the cards are real, genuine, not fake or frauds or cruel jokes (similar to universal atonement) but doesn't in itself mean all individuals benefit from it. The point hanging you up is simply a repudiating of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FICE (as ONE, inseparable, unitied, singlular teacng). Yes, this IS very different than your teaching that God mostly hands out fakes, frauds, unpaid for cards (but we have no way to know that) and so must are trusting/relying (faith) on a cruel joke that is NOT real, genuine, paid for.


Now, quote the verse that states Jesus died ONLY for the elect, the few, the church, exclusively and solely and only for them? Can't find it? Think about that.
Now, quote the verse that states God elects/predestines/causes most people to fry in hell. Can't find it? Think about that.


And consider, Protestantism was born out of a protest of Catholic Schlasticism.... medieval Catholicism's employing of pop philosophy, "science" and above all "logic" to invent new, unique, denomination tradition (in spite of there either being NOTHING in Scripture that teaches it and at times directly contradicted by Scripture). Interesting to see these tiny number of radical, latter-day Calvinists doing EXACTLY what Protestantism protested - only worse. YOU YOURSELF have often been on a rant here, a passionate rant, that all denomination tradition is to be ignored (um, that means TULIP, it IS a very late, very new tradition of just one denomination community) and in stead of that, in place of that, in lieu of that, you insist, we must consider what Scripture says and doesn't say. Yet.... friend.... all you do is parrot a new, very small, unique tradition of a denomination.... and prove you have NOT ONE Scripture that states any part of TULIP (well, the T is confirmed by Scripture). Think about that.






.

 

[MennoSota]

I have cut all the extemporaneous blather you wrote while keeping your actual belief. I will address your belief.

YES, Jesus died for all. YES, it was not worthless. YES, He is the sacrifice for all as the Bible states.

Thus...all humans are made perfect and holy, without any blemish before God. This means that God finds nothing to condemn humans to hell.

YES, Jesus died for all, just as the Bible says (and yes, some equate this with the term "atonement"), yes He is the sacifice for all as the Bible says....

up
Thus...all humans are made perfect and holy, without any blemish before God. This means that God finds nothing to condemn humans to hell.

but you SILLY assumption that THEREFORE all MUST be saved is wrong. It's illogical and absurd. And depends on deleting faith.

How is it that people who have been made entirely righteous and holy before the Creator are still condemned in their sins? Explain this. If the only condemnation from God is that the human did not have faith...then what value did the death of Christ provide? Humans still get thrown in hell regardless of whether their sins are removed. The only thing that God looks at is faith or no faith.
It is as I stated. You are saying that God threw down the rope, but you have to climb out by believing the rope will save you. God is a passive observer.

YES, Jesus died for all (and thus that is universal atonement, defining "atonement" as Reformed tend to do)... but NO, that does NOT mean ERGO all have the benefit or ever did have the benefit... it is not received by the individual unless there is faith;

You say that all humanity is made perfect, holy and righteous, but that doesn't matter to God. Only faith that God has done such a thing actually matters. So salvation is limited, but being perfect in God's eyes is unlimited.
In your view, God has no justification for casting people into hell based upon their actions. God only chooses their fate based upon whether they had faith, which God randomly hands out to the universally made perfect human race. God sends people who are made perfect and holy and righteous by Jesus sacrifice into hell. That is your position. I hope others are seeing how horrific your teaching is and how it brutally disrespects the cross.

unlike universalists, THERE IS NO FAITHLESS SALVATION.

No one has ever said there is no faithless salvation.

Yes, the full sacrifice has been offered to God and is "there" for all.... but it benefits the individual via faith, the divine gift of faith... there is no faithless soteriology.

Again, you teach that people made perfect, holy and righteous by Jesus are thrown into hell by God because God didn't choose to give these perfect, holy and righteous people the faith to believe.
Do you see how horrific your thoughts are? You make God an evil monster.

Again, yet again, we have explain that the Bible is NOT contradicting itself or lying.... there is no "dilema" as you insist (by refusing to consider faith).

Indeed the Bible is not contradicting itself. You are contradicting the Bible.

It only means you never apprehended/embraced/trusted/relied upon it - AND THEREFORE never personally benefited. The card is GOOD, paid for,real, genuine... and for all. It doesn't benefit all simply because not all used it.

My analogy stands. You are teaching that the responsibility for salvation falls upon the human and the humans choice to act or not act upon what God has done.
The only thing that sends a person to hell is whether they grabbed the rope provided by God and climbed out...or they didn't grab the rope.
God, in your view, is passive and condemns those for whom Jesus died.

THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION... there is no delema.... your eliminating faith simply creates a FALSE, unbiblical senario.

I have shown you your contradiction. I do not eliminate faith.
I say that God gives faith to every human that He has atoned through Jesus atoning sacrifice.
You say that God does not give faith to every human that He has atoned through Jesus atoning sacrifice.
You say that God throws those whom Jesus made perfect, holy and righteous into hell.

Now, quote the verse that states Jesus died ONLY for the elect, the few, the church, exclusively and solely and only for them? Can't find it? Think about that.

I have shared John 6, John 10, John 17, Matthew 25 as proof that God chooses some and not all. You apparently reject these passages.
I have shown you your horrific concept of God.
You have created a straw man.

Now, quote the verse that states God elects/predestines/causes most people to fry in hell. Can't find it? Think about that.

There is no need because no one here teaches this. Not me, not atpollard, not anyone. This is your straw man.

And consider, Protestantism was born out of a protest of Catholic Schlasticism....

I care nothing about such worthless traditions. Scripture is what we look at because it is God's word.

Josiah, it is my hope that you and others will now see the error of your teaching on atonement. But, only God truly knows whether you will humbly understand and see how you disrespect the sacrifice of Christ.

Peace



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[Josiah]

Thus...all humans are made perfect and holy, without any blemish before God.

No. I will NOT join you in repudiating Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. I will never join you in declaring faith moot, irrelevant, worthless and meaningless.

The only thing that God looks at is faith or no faith.

No. I will NOT join you in repudiating Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. I will never join you in regarding Christ as irrelevant, moot, worthless, meaningless.

You are saying that God threw down the rope, but you have to climb out by believing the rope will save you. God is a passive observer.

QUOTE ME saying that. We all KNOW you can't because I've never remotely, ever, said any such silly, absurd thing. And you know it.

You have this apologetic and we see it often. You think if you ABSURDLY accuse someone of saying something they obviously never said or believe and show i9t to be wrong, ERGO you HAVE to be right. The illogic of your apologetic amazes.

In your view, God has no justification for casting people into hell based upon their actions.

QUOTE ME saying that. We all KNOW you can't because I've never remotely, ever, said any such silly, absurd thing. And you know it.

You have this apologetic and we see it often. You think if you ABSURDLY accuse someone of saying something they obviously never said or believe and show it to be wrong, ERGO you HAVE to be right. The illogic of your apologetic amazes.

That is your position

QUOTE ME saying that. We all KNOW you can't because I've never remotely, ever, said any such silly, absurd thing. And you know it.

You have this apologetic and we see it often. You think if you ABSURDLY accuse someone of saying something they obviously never said or believe and show it to be wrong, ERGO you HAVE to be right. The illogic of your apologetic amazes.


Now.... quote the verse that states Jesus died for ONLY some. Can't?

Now... quote the verse that states God predestines/chooses/elects/causes most people to go to hell. Can't?

You are teaching that the responsibility for salvation falls upon the human and the humans choice to act or not act upon what God has done.

QUOTE ME saying that. We all KNOW you can't because I've never remotely, ever, said any such silly, absurd thing. And you know it.

You have this apologetic and we see it often. You think if you ABSURDLY accuse someone of saying something they obviously never said or believe and show it to be wrong, ERGO you HAVE to be right. The illogic of your apologetic amazes.


Now.... quote the verse that states Jesus died for ONLY some. Can't?

Now... quote the verse that states God predestines/chooses/elects/causes most people to go to hell. Can't?

I have shared John 6, John 10, John 17, Matthew 25 as proof that God chooses some and not all. You apparently reject these passages.

No. I have fully, completely, verbatim, absolutely agreed with EVERY WORD in every one of the few Scriptures you have noted. It's just none of them state what you do. NONE of them say Jesus died for ONLY a few.... NONE of them say God predestines/elects/causes most to go to hell. You have yet to find one verse that states ANY of TULIP (well, the "T"). You've proven it over and over and over and over and over again.


Meanwhile, we've given many Scriptures that state Jesus died for all.

I care nothing about such worthless traditions. Scripture is what we look at because it is God's word.

GREAT! Then stop parroting TULIP and quote the verse that states, "Jesus died for ONLY the elect" and "God predestines most to go to hell."








.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I care nothing about such worthless traditions. Scripture is what we look at because it is God's word.

And this has been the issue all along. Your namesake began this erroneous and tragic path, leading millions into error. However, you will not seek to examine the error (also following the tradition of your namesake) as he was equally conceited in his pride

 

[MennoSota]

No. I will NOT join you in repudiating Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. I will never join you in declaring faith moot, irrelevant, worthless and meaningless.






No. I will NOT join you in repudiating Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. I will never join you in regarding Christ as irrelevant, moot, worthless, meaningless.






QUOTE ME saying that. We all KNOW you can't because I've never remotely, ever, said any such silly, absurd thing. And you know it.

You have this apologetic and we see it often. You think if you ABSURDLY accuse someone of saying something they obviously never said or believe and show i9t to be wrong, ERGO you HAVE to be right. The illogic of your apologetic amazes.






QUOTE ME saying that. We all KNOW you can't because I've never remotely, ever, said any such silly, absurd thing. And you know it.

You have this apologetic and we see it often. You think if you ABSURDLY accuse someone of saying something they obviously never said or believe and show it to be wrong, ERGO you HAVE to be right. The illogic of your apologetic amazes.








QUOTE ME saying that. We all KNOW you can't because I've never remotely, ever, said any such silly, absurd thing. And you know it.

You have this apologetic and we see it often. You think if you ABSURDLY accuse someone of saying something they obviously never said or believe and show it to be wrong, ERGO you HAVE to be right. The illogic of your apologetic amazes.


Now.... quote the verse that states Jesus died for ONLY some. Can't?

Now... quote the verse that states God predestines/chooses/elects/causes most people to go to hell. Can't?







QUOTE ME saying that. We all KNOW you can't because I've never remotely, ever, said any such silly, absurd thing. And you know it.

You have this apologetic and we see it often. You think if you ABSURDLY accuse someone of saying something they obviously never said or believe and show it to be wrong, ERGO you HAVE to be right. The illogic of your apologetic amazes.


Now.... quote the verse that states Jesus died for ONLY some. Can't?

Now... quote the verse that states God predestines/chooses/elects/causes most people to go to hell. Can't?





No. I have fully, completely, verbatim, absolutely agreed with EVERY WORD in every one of the few Scriptures you have noted. It's just none of them state what you do. NONE of them say Jesus died for ONLY a few.... NONE of them say God predestines/elects/causes most to go to hell. You have yet to find one verse that states ANY of TULIP (well, the "T"). You've proven it over and over and over and over and over again.


Meanwhile, we've given many Scriptures that state Jesus died for all.






GREAT! Then stop parroting TULIP and quote the verse that states, "Jesus died for ONLY the elect" and "God predestines most to go to hell."








.

I quoted you in post #103. There is nothing more to say. Your teaching utterly disrespects the work of Christ on the cross. You have to live with that, not me.

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[MennoSota]

And this has been the issue all along. Your namesake began this erroneous and tragic path, leading millions into error. However, you will not seek to examine the error (also following the tradition of your namesake) as he was equally conceited in his pride

Tradition is not the issue of this thread. Create a topic on how tradition trumps scripture and we can talk there.
Here we are discussing what God says about whom he has atoned through Jesus sacrifice. Stay in the lane, ID2.

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[ImaginaryDay2]

I quoted you in post #103. There is nothing more to say. Your teaching utterly disrespects the work of Christ on the cross. You have to live with that, not me.

Even though this was meant for Josiah I am utterly astounded by the petulant nature of these posts when all ability to reason fails

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Tradition is not the issue of this thread.

You brought it up. But, as you "care nothing about such worthless traditions", I won't mention it again until you do

 

[MennoSota]

Even though this was meant for Josiah I am utterly astounded by the petulant nature of these posts when all ability to reason fails

I have responded. My point is clear and based specifically upon what Josiah has clearly expressed.
Please be astounded by the disrespect given to God by Josiah's position (and very likely your position). Josiah should be repenting rather than arguing.

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[MennoSota]

You brought it up. But, as you "care nothing about such worthless traditions", I won't mention it again until you do

I did not bring it up. Josiah brings it up as a straw man. We are not discussing tradition. We are discussing be God's word.

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[Josiah]

I did not bring it up

In many discussions, you have made a huge point about how you and all must totally disregard denominational tradition. Yet, what do we see on any of the TULIP dogmas? All you do is parrot these very late, very rare traditions of a few Calvinists.

And you have stressed (wrongly calling this "Sola Scriptura") that we can only go by what the Bible states; you will disregard anything not stated in the Bible. And yet, what do we all so clearly witness from you on all these TULIP traditions? When ask to quote the Scriptures that states these new denomination traditions, you just ignore it (ENDLESSLY).... and when we quote MANY Scriptures that state the exact opposite of what you state, you just "spin" them in the most radical eisegesis I've ever witnessed until they "mean" the exact opposite of what they stated.


You yourself have stated (even in the title of one of your threads) that the "L" is that Jesus died ONLY for the church. YOU stated that. And your position is confirmed by every conservative Reformed website I know of and by the Reformed doctrine books I own. It IS the new, denominational tradition you parrot... but you can't find any verse that states that. So you FALSELY state that others have posted absurd, stupid things they NEVER said... show what you falsely attribute to them is stupid, and then want all to believe ERGO you must be right. And since you can't find "only" "exclusively" "solely" "just" "few" in any Scripture on this, you make the silly argument that if it's true in one case, it cannot be true otherwise (as if I stated President Trump is an American, ERGO no one else can be) - it's one of THE most illogical apologetics I've ever encountered. Bottom line: For 400+ years, no radical Calvinists - including you - can find a verse that teaches Jesus died ONLY for a few.... and you must "spin" 180 degrees all those many Scriptures that state the opposite.

We are not discussing tradition. We are discussing be God's word.

Again, GREAT!!!!

Then stop parroting TULIP and give the reference to the following verses:

"Jesus died ONLY for some and not for all."
"God predestines/elects/chooses most to fry in hell"
"God's grace is irresistible"
"If someone had REAL faith at any point in their life, they are saved."


Don't show that you know how to ask questions (it proves NOTHING, it's not apologetics)
Don't accuse others of posting stupid things they never remotely ever said - then claiming because that's wrong, you must be right.
Don't mention any part of Calvinist tradition.
Just quote the Bible.
Just as you insist all others must do.




.

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[Andrew]

Copy Pasta from an online article I found interesting..

------------------------
When you hear the question, “For whom did Jesus die?” what do you think?

The answer may seem obvious:*for the world. After all,*John 1:29*says that Jesus is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of*the world. And*John 3:16*declares that “God so loved*the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” As a result, many interpreters assert that Jesus died for the entire world, and not for a predestined number of people.

But what does the term “world” mean when used in association with Jesus’s death? Does it refer to everyone*without distinction*or to everyone*without exception? There is a difference.

Everyone without distinction would mean that Jesus died for all kinds of people from every tongue, tribe, people, and nation. Everyone without exception would mean that he died for every single individual person without any exception. This latter view asserts that even those who die rejecting Jesus can say that Jesus’s blood was for them because those for whom Jesus died may or may not have faith in him.

I believe the Scripture teaches that Jesus died for all people in the world without distinction — meaning, Jesus died for all kinds of people from every tongue, tribe, people, and nation. And he died not only to give a*bona fide*offer of salvation to all, but to actually purchase and effect the final salvation of his elect. In the book of Romans, the apostle Paul teaches that Jesus’s death actually achieved the benefits of salvation for those for whom he died. Paul does not present Jesus’s death as hypothetically accomplishing the salvation of all people without exception, but as actually accomplishing salvation for all for whom he died.

Jesus’s Blood and Justification by Faith

In Romans, Paul states that Jesus’s death justifies (declares righteous) sinners by faith in Christ and connects justification by faith with Jesus’s blood (Romans 3:24–30). He asserts that God justifies sinners by faith because he offered Jesus to die for their sins. All sinners must be freely justified by God’s redemption provided by Jesus because all (Jews and Gentiles) have sinned (Romans 1:18–3:24). Justification is God’s gracious gift and comes to all sinners freely through the redemption accomplished by means of Jesus’s blood (Romans 3:24–25).

Justification by faith in*Romans 3:21–22and in 3:24 is connected with “redemption” (3:24) and with the idea of bloody sacrifice (Romans 3:25). This connection suggests that Jesus’s blood accomplished liberation for those for whom he died. In light of Paul’s remarks in*Romans 3:20, that the law justifies no one, and in*Romans 3:24, that all people must be graciously justified through redemption in Jesus Christ, Paul explains in*Romans 3:25–26*how God justifies sinners through Jesus’s redemption. He states (literally) that God “offered Jesus to be an atoning sacrifice,” that this sacrifice is received “by faith,” and that Jesus’s “blood” accomplished justification for the one who has faith in Jesus (Romans 3:25–26).

The security of those justified is even clearer in*Ephesians 1:4–5*and*1:7*when we examine election, predestination (Ephesians 1:4–5), redemption, and forgiveness of sins with the blood of Christ (Ephesians 1:7). A straightforward reading of*Ephesians 1:4–7*suggests that God chose some Jews and Gentiles to be in Christ before the foundation of the world and predestined them in love to be in God’s family, and that Jesus redeemed those whom God chose and predestined by accomplishing their forgiveness of sins.

Six Reasons for Your Joy

Jesus’s death as a death for all elect Jews and Gentiles without distinction should encourage all Christians. Here are six reasons that we should find joy in the doctrine that Jesus died to save the elect.

Christians can be confident that Jesus’s blood will conquer the power of sin and death. Everyone for whom Jesus died will receive the saving benefits of his death by faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus’s death victoriously liberates sinners from sin and disarms the power of the devil. Both of these truths become apparent when those for whom Jesus died respond to his saving work in faith and obedience.

When people die in unbelief, this does not prove that God’s plan to save the world through the death of his Son failed. Jesus both universally and exclusively died to save his sheep (John 10:11–16). Yes, it is true that everyone who wants to be saved can be. And it is equally true that everyone for whom Jesus died will be saved. This is, in fact, a fundamental reason for which he died.

Jesus’s blood guarantees that his elect will be saved when the Spirit awakens them after they hear the gospel. Jesus came from heaven to seek, find, and purchase his elect sheep. The blood of Jesus secures a place in the sheepfold. Christians should, therefore, cling to the blood of Jesus Christ as our only hope in life and death, along with his victorious resurrection.

Christians can evangelize with confidence in God’s redemptive plan to redeem everyone for whom Jesus died to redeem. Jesus shed his blood to save the elect whom God chose to be in Christ. The verbal proclamation of the gospel makes known to the elect the salvation accomplished by Christ for them, and the Spirit — when he’s willing — will create faith in the hearts of all the elect and apply the benefits of the death of Jesus specifically to the elect for whom Jesus died. Evangelism, then, is simply the Christian act of announcing to all sinners what God has done in Christ to save them. And Christians should proclaim this message to anyone who will listen. The Spirit will create life in the hearts of the elect and apply the benefits of Jesus’s death to them when he’s willing.

Jesus’s death for the elect should assure Christians of their salvation. Many Christians doubt their salvation. However, since Jesus’s blood was shed specifically for elect Jews and Gentiles, we can be confident that the blood of Christ will cover all of our sins. We can also be certain that Jesus’s blood alone is sufficient to plead for us before the throne of God above.

Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, shed his blood for elect Jews*and elect Gentiles. Therefore, the church of Jesus Christ should relentlessly pursue gospel racial reconciliation in such a way that the death of Jesus (and the resurrection) is at the very center of all calls for racial harmony and justice. Jesus’s shed blood for the elect from every tongue, tribe, and nation creates the necessary motivation for Christians from every ethnic stripe to strive toward gospel unity with all people in the church.

May God’s people take great courage and joy in the fact that Christ Jesus died for all of the sins of the elect. And everyone for whom Christ died will be saved — and will be kept by the power of God and the blood of Christ.

------------------

 

[MennoSota]

In many discussions, you have made a huge point about how you and all must totally disregard denominational tradition. Yet, what do we see on any of the TULIP dogmas? All you do is parrot these very late, very rare traditions of a few Calvinists.

And you have stressed (wrongly calling this "Sola Scriptura") that we can only go by what the Bible states; you will disregard anything not stated in the Bible. And yet, what do we all so clearly witness from you on all these TULIP traditions? When ask to quote the Scriptures that states these new denomination traditions, you just ignore it (ENDLESSLY).... and when we quote MANY Scriptures that state the exact opposite of what you state, you just "spin" them in the most radical eisegesis I've ever witnessed until they "mean" the exact opposite of what they stated.


You yourself have stated (even in the title of one of your threads) that the "L" is that Jesus died ONLY for the church. YOU stated that. And your position is confirmed by every conservative Reformed website I know of and by the Reformed doctrine books I own. It IS the new, denominational tradition you parrot... but you can't find any verse that states that. So you FALSELY state that others have posted absurd, stupid things they NEVER said... show what you falsely attribute to them is stupid, and then want all to believe ERGO you must be right. And since you can't find "only" "exclusively" "solely" "just" "few" in any Scripture on this, you make the silly argument that if it's true in one case, it cannot be true otherwise (as if I stated President Trump is an American, ERGO no one else can be) - it's one of THE most illogical apologetics I've ever encountered. Bottom line: For 400+ years, no radical Calvinists - including you - can find a verse that teaches Jesus died ONLY for a few.... and you must "spin" 180 degrees all those many Scriptures that state the opposite.






Again, GREAT!!!!

Then stop parroting TULIP and give the reference to the following verses:

"Jesus died ONLY for some and not for all."
"God predestines/elects/chooses most to fry in hell"
"God's grace is irresistible"
"If someone had REAL faith at any point in their life, they are saved."


Don't show that you know how to ask questions (it proves NOTHING, it's not apologetics)
Don't accuse others of posting stupid things they never remotely ever said - then claiming because that's wrong, you must be right.
Don't mention any part of Calvinist tradition.
Just quote the Bible.
Just as you insist all others must do.




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Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

Josiah....you are the one bringing up TULIP. You are the one clinging to tradition. I am bringing up scripture. When I bring it up, you then use the silly tactic of refusing to believe unless a very specific word....chosen by you...can be found. It's utterly childish.
Clearly you are struggling. I cannot help you except to pray that God reveals your problematic thinking about scripture.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah....you are the one bringing up TULIP.

The "L" is a part of TULIP. It's the "L".
And you correctly stated what the teaching is: Jesus died only for the elect/church/few.
This thread is about that "L".
I didn't start this thread, so I didn't bring up the "L" of TULIP, the opening poster did.

The opening poster is sharing the biblical, traditional position held by nearly every Christian for 2000 years that Jesus died for all, you are parroting and echoing the denomination tradition invented by a tiny number of latter-day radical Calvinists, that Jesus died only for the church (the "L" of the TULIP denomination tradition).

All you are doing is parroting the late, very minority, denomination tradition of TULIP (in this thread, the "L"). Only parroting this late tradition of one denomination community.

I am bringing up scripture

Silly.

NO radical Calvinist, parroting this denomination tradition, has yet (in over 400 years) brought up any Scripture that says Jesus died only for the elect, the church, the few. Yes, they "spin" 180 degrees a LOT of Scriptures that state the exact opposite so that the verses "mean" exactly the opposite of what they say, but no, as everyone here knows (because you've proven it so persistently), you can't bring up any verse that states Christ died for ONLY the few because... well... there is no such Scripture. Just a LOT that say the opposite.




.

 

[MennoSota]

The "L" is a part of TULIP. It's the "L". And you correctly stated what the teaching is: Jesus died only for the elect/church/few. This thread is about that "L". The opening poster is sharing the biblical, traditional position held by nearly every Christian for 2000 years, you are parroting the denomination tradition invented by a tiny number of latter-day radical Calvinists, that Jesus died ONLY for the church (the "L" of the TULIP denomination tradition).

No, I didn't bring up the "L". The opening poster did.








Silly. NO radical Calvinist, parroting this denomination tradition, has yet (in over 400 years) brought up any Scripture that says Jesus died only for the elect, the church, the few. Yes, they "spin" 180 degrees a LOT of Scriptures that state the exact opposite so that the verses "mean" exactly the opposite of what they say, but no, as everyone here knows (because you've proven it so persistently), you can't bring up any verse that states Christ died for ONLY the few because... well... there is no such Scripture. Just a LOT that say the opposite.




.

Josiah...get this through your thick head... atonement is biblical. We are discussing scripture.
DROP your foolish babbling about TULIP. Focus on scripture. That is what is important.
You have a straw man and I don't care about your foolish, moronic, retarded straw man.
We are discussing atonement. I have shown the biblical reasons why you are utterly wrong. Be stubborn if you will.

 

[Josiah]

atonement is biblical

Yup. Now stop evading the denominational tradition that this thread is about.
This is about the "L" of TULIP
That Jesus died ONLY for a few, the elect, the church.
It's a denomination tradition invented by a tiny few latter-day Calvinists.
The "L" of TULIP

You SAY you only care about what Scripture states.
Good.
Then quote the Scripture that states Jesus died only for the few, the elect, the church.

Focus on scripture. That is what is important.

I agree.
So stop parroting the new denominational tradition of "L"
And give us the Scripture that states, "Jesus died for only a few, the elect, the church"
Simple

I have shown the biblical reasons why you are utterly wrong.

1. No. You have NEVER stated my position at all. You have invented stupid, silly, absurd things - over and over and over - that I NEVER remotely said or believed. Then, because you created these SILLY things no one on Earth believes and you show them wrong, ERGO you hold you must be right. It's amazingly illogical and it's not apologetics at all.

2. No. You have not shared even one verse that shows I'm wrong .... and you have not shared even one verse that says Jesus died for only the church.






.

 

[MennoSota]

Yup. Now stop evading the denominational tradition that this thread is about.
This is about the "L" of TULIP
That Jesus died ONLY for a few, the elect, the church.
It's a denomination tradition invented by a tiny few latter-day Calvinists.
The "L" of TULIP.


You SAY you could care less about denomination tradition. Then stop mentioning the "L"
You SAY you only care about what Scripture states.
Good.
Then quote the Scripture that states Jesus died only for the few, the elect, the church.






I agree.
So abandon the "L" of TULIP ("Jesus died for only a few, the elect, the church")
And give us the Scripture that states, "Jesus died for only a few, the elect, the church"
Simple





.

You are wasting typing.

 

[Andrew]

The "L" is a part of TULIP. It's the "L". And you correctly stated what the teaching is: Jesus died only for the elect/church/few. This thread is about that "L". The opening poster is sharing the biblical, traditional position held by nearly every Christian for 2000 years that Jesus died for all, you are parroting the denomination tradition invented by a tiny number of latter-day radical Calvinists, that Jesus died only for the church (the "L" of the TULIP denomination tradition).

All you are doing is parroting the late, very minority, denomination tradition of TULIP (in this thread, the "L"). Only parroting this late tradition of one denomination community.





Silly. NO radical Calvinist, parroting this denomination tradition, has yet (in over 400 years) brought up any Scripture that says Jesus died only for the elect, the church, the few. Yes, they "spin" 180 degrees a LOT of Scriptures that state the exact opposite so that the verses "mean" exactly the opposite of what they say, but no, as everyone here knows (because you've proven it so persistently), you can't bring up any verse that states Christ died for ONLY the few because... well... there is no such Scripture. Just a LOT that say the opposite.




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From post 113

"But what does the term “world” mean when used in association with Jesus’s death? Does it refer to everyone without distinction or to everyone without exception? There is a difference.

Everyone without distinction would mean that Jesus died for all kinds of people from every tongue, tribe, people, and nation. Everyone without exception would mean that he died for every single individual person without any exception. This latter view asserts that even those who die rejecting Jesus can say that Jesus’s blood was for them because those for whom Jesus died may or may not have faith in him."

 

[Josiah]

You are wasting typing.

Probably.


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