Calvinism Vs Arminian

[MennoSota]

But if the Father has indeed given him some, that suggests that the whole world isn't in that category. And you are right that Jesus himself said that the Father had given him some and that they could not be taken from his hand.

So....?

So...the number of people for whom their sins are removed (atoned) is limited to those who will be saved. Jesus blood is always sufficient to save. No drop was wasted.

 

[MennoSota]

You didn't say anything about forgiveness of sins in your Gospel definition? Why not?

Because I kept it simple. We read the Apostles, in the Book of Acts, saying "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."

 

[MoreCoffee]

I merely kept it simple for this board. Indeed the Resurrection showed that the payment for sin is sufficient.

A payment for sin? What was paid and to whom was it paid?

 

[Josiah]

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What is the "L" in TULIP?


For months, for MANY and countless posts, MennoSota said it is this: "Jesus died only for the elect, not everyone." He entitled one of his threads on this with "Jesus died only for the church." And constantly, those who have argued that He died for all have been ridiculed, mocked, condemned, told they contradict themselves and are illogical

Now he claims the dogma is something ENTIRELY different, "Limited atonement means that only those whom God has given faith have their sins removed (atoned for) so that they are made holy." He claims Lutherans actually are 100% correct on this (Lutherans strongly teach that Jesus died for all)




Let's see what Calvinists say this dogma is, this "L" in TULIP.....


Tim Challies https://www.challies.com/articles/the-l-in-tulip/

Limited Atonement is that "Jesus took the sins only of the elect upon Himself on the Cross." He goes on to say the issue is that He did NOT die for all.


Ligonier Ministries https://www.ligonier.org/blog/tulip-and-reformed-theology-limited-atonement/

Limited Atonment is that, "Christ died only for His sheep; he laid down his life only for those whom the Father had given to him."


Matt Slick https://carm.org/what-is-tulip-in-calvinism

Limited Atonement is that, "Christ bore the sins of only the elect and not of everyone."


Calvinist Corner https://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

Limited Atonement teaches that "Jesus died only for the elect."


Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics https://reformed.org/calvinism/

Limited atonement is the doctrine that "Jesus did not die for all. He died for many but not all."


And what has MennoSota said it is? "Christ died only for the church."


So that's the issue of the "L". The issue is this: Did Jesus die for all or for just a limited few? The issue is NOT did His death result in the salvation of everyone irregardless of faith? (A position many hyper-Calvinists took but not this one), the issue is not "is faith limited to some" the issue is EXACTLY as MennoSota has said, as Calvinists for over 400 years have said: Did Christ died for only a limited few or for all? Don't allow the perpetual shell game to confuse, there is one issue here: Did Christ die for all or for a LIMITED few?

God does not do what you are claiming. He does not atone and then later take it back and declare guilty

Ah, another of your ploys.....


If you can FALSELY claim (you just make stuff up) that someone else said something wrong, that makes you right. You lack of logic amazes me.


Quote me where I claimed that..... you know you can't. We all know you can't. Just like a long list of other things you insist I posted but never remotely did.


Because NEVER in my entirely life have I said ANYTHING REMOTELY like that heretical nonsense, and I think everyone knows it. In ALL this discussion, I have STRESSED the role of faith and I never once said "take back" in this context, not once, not ever. In fact, I've never once said that God takes back ANYTHING from ANYONE. How do you make this stuff up?


HERE'S what I said, "Jesus died for all." The opposite of what you said. You ridiculed that, mocked that, condemned that, called it illogical, called it a contradiction, claimed it was against Scripture, said that makes me a synergistic Arminianist. And all the verses in the Bible that obviously, undeniably state exactly that, you had to twist 180 degrees, upside down and inside out, deleting the words that state He died for all and replace them with "a limited few, not all."


Your position: "Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few."
MY position : "Jesus died for all." You called this illogical, contradictory, heretical, synergistic and Arminianistic.

Now, I noted over and over and over that this doesn't benefit all because not all have faith, but yes, He died for all. I gave several illustrations, I gave many Scriptures, I expressed this in countless ways, but it remains true what Scripture says: Jesus died for all. I not only never said but entirely rejected the idea that any are saved without faith (I noted, THAT view is an outgrowth of hyper-Calvinism). I have constantly said that faith matters and noted that you keep evading it. I'm not teaching universalism (again, that's an outgrowth of hyper-Calvinism), I'm teaching that Jesus died for all. You've been repudiating, ridiculing, condemning that position for MONTHS, in thread after thread, on and on and on.




- Josiah




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[Albion]

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[MennoSota]

A payment for sin? What was paid and to whom was it paid?

The requirement of man's breaking the law of God was paid by Jesus. It was paid to God for the sins of the elect.
MC, humans are in covenant with God from the garden. We broke that covenant. There is a price for breaking that covenant. Shed blood of a perfect substitute was required. Jesus substitutionary atonement for the elect paid the debt owed by the breaking of the covenant.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The requirement of man's breaking the law of God was paid by Jesus. It was paid to God for the sins of the elect.
MC, humans are in covenant with God from the garden. We broke that covenant. There is a price for breaking that covenant. Shed blood of a perfect substitute was required. Jesus substitutionary atonement for the elect paid the debt owed by the breaking of the covenant.

I see, so it comes down to Calvinist traditions about penal substitutionary atonement.

 

[Andrew]

Here we find that Jesus is speaking on behalf of the one who sent him, that his Father will judge those who REJECT him will be judged in the end and as for Jesus he says CLEARLY that he has come to SAVE the WORLD.
God puts the words in Jesus mouth, is God lying that Christ has come to save the world?

"I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak"
John 12:46-50

 

[MennoSota]

.


What is the "L" in TULIP?


For months, for MANY and countless posts, MennoSota said it is this: "Jesus died only for the elect, not everyone." He entitled one of his threads on this with "Jesus died only for the church." And constantly, those who have argued that He died for all have been ridiculed, mocked, condemned, told they contradict themselves and are illogical

Now he claims the dogma is something ENTIRELY different, "Limited atonement means that only those whom God has given faith have their sins removed (atoned for) so that they are made holy." He claims Lutherans actually are 100% correct on this (Lutherans strongly teach that Jesus died for all)




Let's see what Calvinists say this dogma is, this "L" in TULIP.....


Tim Challies https://www.challies.com/articles/the-l-in-tulip/

Limited Atonement is that "Jesus took the sins only of the elect upon Himself on the Cross." He goes on to say the issue is that He did NOT die for all.


Ligonier Ministries https://www.ligonier.org/blog/tulip-and-reformed-theology-limited-atonement/

Limited Atonment is that, "Christ died only for His sheep; he laid down his life only for those whom the Father had given to him."


Matt Slick https://carm.org/what-is-tulip-in-calvinism

Limited Atonement is that, "Christ bore the sins of only the elect and not of everyone."


Calvinist Corner https://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

Limited Atonement teaches that "Jesus died only for the elect."


Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics https://reformed.org/calvinism/

Limited atonement is the doctrine that "Jesus did not die for all. He died for many but not all."


And what has MennoSota said it is? "Christ died only for the church."


So that's the issue of the "L". The issue is this: Did Jesus die for all or for just a limited few? The issue is NOT did His death result in the salvation of everyone irregardless of faith? (A position many hyper-Calvinists took but not this one), the issue is not "is faith limited to some" the issue is EXACTLY as MennoSota has said, as Calvinists for over 400 years have said: Did Christ died for only a limited few or for all? Don't allow the perpetual shell game to confuse, there is one issue here: Did Christ die for all or for a LIMITED few?









Ah, another of your ploys.....


If you can FALSELY claim (you just make stuff up) that someone else said something wrong, that makes you right. You lack of logic amazes me.


Quote me where I claimed that..... you know you can't. We all know you can't. Just like a long list of other things you insist I posted but never remotely did.


Because NEVER in my entirely life have I said ANYTHING REMOTELY like that heretical nonsense, and I think everyone knows it. In ALL this discussion, I have STRESSED the role of faith and I never once said "take back" in this context, not once, not ever. In fact, I've never once said that God takes back ANYTHING from ANYONE. How do you make this stuff up?


HERE'S what I said, "Jesus died for all." The opposite of what you said. You ridiculed that, mocked that, condemned that, called it illogical, called it a contradiction, claimed it was against Scripture, said that makes me a synergistic Arminianist. And all the verses in the Bible that obviously, undeniably state exactly that, you had to twist 180 degrees, upside down and inside out, deleting the words that state He died for all and replace them with "a limited few, not all."


Your position: "Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few."
MY position : "Jesus died for all." You called this illogical, contradictory, heretical, synergistic and Arminianistic.

Now, I noted over and over and over that this doesn't benefit all because not all have faith, but yes, He died for all. I gave several illustrations, I gave many Scriptures, I expressed this in countless ways, but it remains true what Scripture says: Jesus died for all. I not only never said but entirely rejected the idea that any are saved without faith (I noted, THAT view is an outgrowth of hyper-Calvinism). I have constantly said that faith matters and noted that you keep evading it. I'm not teaching universalism (again, that's an outgrowth of hyper-Calvinism), I'm teaching that Jesus died for all. You've been repudiating, ridiculing, condemning that position for MONTHS, in thread after thread, on and on and on.




- Josiah




.

Josiah, you are claiming the same thing as Calvinists (limited atonement), but you recoil from the term.
Instead, you say atonement is unlimited...except there is a catch... it's limited to to those whom God gives faith. Therefore you declare that God uses double jeopardy to condemn those for whom he has already atoned their sins.
Your teaching of double jeopardy makes God out to be vindictive.
God atones for all humanity, but he only views the atonement as effective for the elect, whom He has granted faith. For all those He has not granted faith...the atonement is ineffective and invalidated by lack of faith. Such a teaching dishonors God.

 

[MennoSota]

I see, so it comes down to Calvinist traditions about penal substitutionary atonement.

Nope, it comes down to scripture.

 

[MennoSota]

Here we find that Jesus is speaking on behalf of the one who sent him, that his Father will judge those who REJECT him will be judged in the end and as for Jesus he says CLEARLY that he has come to SAVE the WORLD.
God puts the words in Jesus mouth, is God lying that Christ has come to save the world?

Does all the world believe? Is all the world saved? Is God a liar because not all the world is saved?

"I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Only the elect will believe.

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

God judges those who don't believe as being guilty. There sins are not atoned for by Jesus sacrifice.

And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak"

The words of Christ are everlasting.
Those who believe have their sins atoned. Those who don't believe do not have their sins atoned.

John 12:46-50

Thanks for the passage. I hope you now see that it teaches limited atonement.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Nope, it comes down to scripture.

Which passages in holy scripture?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

All humanity receives God's mercy continually until death.

Interesting. Explain how that fits with a Calvinist view considering:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

 

[Andrew]

Does all the world believe? Is all the world saved? Is God a liar because not all the world is saved?

God is patient and wills no one to perish, the verses says those who reject Christ condemn themselves and will face judgment on the last day.

Only the elect will believe.

The believer will be elected by God for he actively searches the hearts of men, the angels will mark the faithful in their foreheads before the great and terrible day of judgment, the remainder of souls left will perish, the second death for the unfaithful dead will be the lake of fire.

God judges those who don't believe as being guilty. There sins are not atoned for by Jesus sacrifice.

They condemned themselves by rejecting the faith, they will answer to God for their sins, the wages of sin is death. Had they accepted Christs atonement they would have died in Christ and be raised in Christ.

The words of Christ are everlasting.
Those who believe have their sins atoned. Those who don't believe do not have their sins atoned.

Couldn't have said it better myself

Thanks for the passage. I hope you now see that it teaches limited atonement

Thanks but...
Uhhg! This is a classic example of Catch 22, the atonement is limitless for every living person who has yet to believe while they are here on Earth, after they die and have not believed then they are not atoned for (God have mercy on their souls because these will face the second death). As for this current world, every single person has the equal and exact opportunity as you and I to repent and accept the atonement.

 

[Andrew]

Interesting. Explain how that fits with a Calvinist view considering:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Every person alive and well around the entire world has the same exact opportunity to hear and accept the Word of God and be the recipient of Salvation through the worldwide atonement... for those who reject the faith and die it will be too late and they will face judgement and the second death. Calvinists believe that only a select individuals on earth are allowed to be saved, ALL are 'allowed'... here we find that Menno is correct -that it's not over until it's over, we all are sinners and we all have the same exact opportunity as even the worst offenders, the atonement is universal in that sense.
Calvinists seem to believe that many are born to perish, that no matter what they can never ever be saved ever...

 

[MennoSota]

Interesting. Explain how that fits with a Calvinist view considering:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Two different areas of mercy. Every moment that we breathe is God's mercy when we should be killed because of our sin.
At the day of judgment, God will end His mercy upon those whom Christ did not atone for their sins. For those whom Christ did make atonement and graciously received faith, God will continue His mercy into eternity.
"I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy."
Thanks for providing scripture that reveals God's limited atonement. Hopefully MC will read the Bible and see it as well.

 

[MennoSota]

God is patient and wills no one to perish, the verses says those who reject Christ condemn themselves and will face judgment on the last day.

So, God's will is weaker than man's will to reject?
That is what you are claiming here.

The believer will be elected by God for he actively searches the hearts of men, the angels will mark the faithful in their foreheads before the great and terrible day of judgment, the remainder of souls left will perish, the second death for the unfaithful dead will be the lake of fire.

Here, you require men to conjure up their own faith so that God might elect them. You teach election by merit, not by grace.

They condemned themselves by rejecting the faith, they will answer to God for their sins, the wages of sin is death. Had they accepted Christs atonement they would have died in Christ and be raised in Christ.

You teach that human will to reject God is more powerful than God's will to save. This you make God a liar in 2 Peter 3:9.
You also make God guilty of double jeopardy.

Couldn't have said it better myself

God didn't say what you claim. You said it better than God because God doesn't say what you claim.

Thanks but...
Uhhg! This is a classic example of Catch 22, the atonement is limitless for every living person who has yet to believe while they are here on Earth, after they die and have not believed then they are not atoned for (God have mercy on their souls because these will face the second death). As for this current world, every single person has the equal and exact opportunity as you and I to repent and accept the atonement.

You certainly have a big dilemma, a catch 22. You declare that the atonement is not effectual for all men, it is only "potentially" effective...based upon the merit of individual humans. You make God weak and impotent.

 

[Andrew]

Every moment that we breathe is God's mercy when we should be killed because of our sin.

Oh my, we are deserving of death ok.. but we should be killed??
Menno, everyone alive on this planet have the same exact and equal opportunity as you and I to believe on the gospel and ve atoned for, in this very sense is what we mean by universal atonement, those who die in rejection to faith will await a second death (lake of fire) because they died the death (not in Christ), but again everyone alive and well are offered the glorious atonement, reject it your whole life and you have condemned yourself... that easy.
The atonement is for the world and God does not break his promise that if you believe you are saved.

 

[Andrew]

So, God's will is weaker than man's will to reject?

No I never said that, the atonement is for the world and all who are alive in it, we are all same and equal sinners therefore all have the opportunity to accept the gift of living waters or reject it, like I said, rejecting it means that you condemn yourself and that you are responsible for the sins you have committed and the wage is death where you got to hell/hades, the second death is the lake of fire, what we originally all deserved woe to them..

Why does Christ knock on doors? Why not just walk right in? God wants a response, accept or reject.
Yey or ney, there is no in between

 

[MennoSota]

Oh my, we are deserving of death ok.. but we should be killed??
Menno, everyone alive on this planet have the same exact and equal opportunity as you and I to believe on the gospel and ve atoned for, in this very sense is what we mean by universal atonement, those who die in rejection to faith will await a second death (lake of fire) because they died the death (not in Christ), but again everyone alive and well are offered the glorious atonement, reject it your whole life and you have condemned yourself... that easy.
The atonement is for the world and God does not break his promise that if you believe you are saved.

Andrew, are humans perfect and holy or have they been born under the curse of sin?
What is the wages of sin?
Not everyone gets the same opportunity. Recall the island off India where other humans are not allowed. Those person's never get to hear about Jesus. Can God hold their sins against them? Absolutely. We all, like sheep have gone astray.
Only those whom God has chosen will believe. The rest will consider rescue to be foolish. When God comes near, like Adam and Eve, they will hide from His presence. They are accountable for their sins. God is NOT obligated to save rebels. He has never said He will save all humans. Therefore...not all humans have their sins atoned for. The Bible always teaches limited atonement. Context is the key.