Calvinism Vs Arminian

[Albion]

All the letters of TULIP are in error because none of them is founded on sound analysis of holy scripture they all have their foundation in philosophically grounded Calvinist tradition.

Sort of like Transubstantiation, Limbo, Purgatory, and a lot of other Medieval Catholic teachings, most of which are still being taught.

 

[Josiah]

Sort of like Transubstantiation, Limbo, Purgatory, and a lot of other Medieval Catholic teachings, most of which are still being taught.

Correct.

And very insightful about radical, extreme Calvinism and Arminianism.


SADLY, the radical, latter-day hyper-Calvinists and hyper-Armianists went "full circle", right back to the very thing they "protested." "Guilty" of the VERY THING they rebuked Catholicism for doing.... Doing the very thing Catholic Scholasticism did, making tradition of self normative just as Catholics did, making self and the brain of self the norm, not Scripture, embracing a profound sense of egoism and individualism. In some ways, they are worse than the Catholicism they left.


In my undergrad years, I suddenly found I lack a core course I needed to graduate and I decided to fill it with a history course. Not wanted to AGAIN take world or US history, I got the profs approval for an upper division course called "Revolution." We studied a LOT of revolutions over many centuries - some well known (the French Revolution, the American Revolution, the Russian Revolutions, the Cuban Revolution) and many not. ONE of the many things I learned is that Revolution nearly always goes full circle... and becomes the very thing it revolted against (sometimes worse!) - only the names change. It's probably seen best in the Russian Revolutions. ONE of the things that makes the US Revolution unusual is that this didn't happen here (we probably have George Washington to thank for this!); Americans in those early years worked hard to not over-react. As our prof said, "powerful revolutiions have powerful momentum that can be nearly impossible to stop." Yes. When you look at the late 16th century and into the 17th, we see a new phase.... the "Reformations" of Luther and Calvin and Anglicanism (sometimes called "the first wave reformation) moves to something quite different... something Luther strongly rejected (and yes, a FEW Lutherans wandered into). We come into second wave Reformation, etc. You you study these, you see the obvious: They have gone full circle, right back to the very things Luther and Calvin protested. I see the very worse in Catholicism all over hyper-Calvinisms' TULIP and in hyper-Arminianism, too. And too much in modern Evangelicalism. When I look at Luther, Calvin and the 39 Articles, I see much that is sound and biblical and historic - with humility and community. But as my prof would say..... there was momentum, and it's hard to stop.





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[MennoSota]

No.


As you yourself have often defined it, it is that 'JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few."

I stand with verbatim Scripture and 2000 years of orthodox Christianity in holding that Jesus died for all.

They are opposite positions.

This is the definition of "Limited Atonement" (the "L" of TULIP): "Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone." Or as commonly expressed, as you did, 'JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few." Don't try to change the whole meaning of the dogma, turning it into the opposite, so that you can say it's right.







Absurd.


The Protestant theology of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide does not accuse God of "double jeoprody." It simply embraces what God Himself says: God loves all, Jesus died for all, those with the divine gift of faith apprehend the benefits of that. It's what I've been saying since you came to this website and you have been STRONGLY disagreeing with me, insisting it contradicts itself and is against Scripture and is illogical. So you have condemned the Protestant position in thread after thread, for MANY pages of posts. Insisting, over and over and over and over, that Jesus died ONLY for the Church (one of your many threads on this is even entitled that), telling the rest of us that Jesus did NOT die for all.

The issue of the "L" is exactly as you yourself as said since you came here: JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few. That's the "L" of TULIP. It's NOT "Faith is limited" or "Justification is limited" or "The effect of Christ's work is limited" it's that Christ died for the limited. As you yourself have stressed over and over and over and over and over and over. Everyone knows that the "L" of TULIP is in direct reaction to one of the 5 points of Arminianism, that Jesus died for all. The latter-day radical hyper-Calvinists that invented TULIP noted that each point is a reaction to the points made by Arminianists; the "L" is the opposite of "Jesus died for all" exactly as you yourself have constantly said: the TULIP dogma is this, JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few.


IF you have now realized what nearly all Calvinists have .... that the radical, new invented dogmas of TULIP are largely wrong and unbiblical and illogical.... then good. Admit it and join with every Calvinist personally known to me. But to suddenly say, "Oh, I never said Jesus die ONLY for a few..... I never said that TULIP teaches that Jesus died for ONLY the elect..... TULIP teaches that Jesus died for everyone..... I've always agreed with you that Jesus died for all..... well.....








Exactly.


Which is why TULIP has been largely abandoned. And probably THE most rejected part of this by Calvinists is this "L" that MennoSota is oddly most passionate about. It may be this is dawning on MennoSota, too. It takes humility to admit error, to admit we were wrong. A lot of we regulars here at CH have done this so much that we actually changed denominations (perhaps more than once).




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Josiah, you claim that ONLY the exclusive, limited few who are chosen to receive God's gift of faith are saved. No one else.
I agree.
What you refuse to accept is that only those who receive the gift of faith actually have their sins atoned. All others die, fully guilty of all the sins they have committed.
Josiah, unlimited atonement means that all humans, regardless of whether God gives faith or not, have all their sins removed (atoned for) so that they are made holy. THAT is Unlimited Atonement.
Limited atonement means that only those whom God has given faith have their sins removed (atoned for) so that they are made holy. [Hint: it is what you call your "narrow justification."] THAT is Limited Atonement.
It is so odd to see you fight against yourself and contradict yourself with all your posts.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sort of like Transubstantiation, Limbo, Purgatory, and a lot of other Medieval Catholic teachings, most of which are still being taught.

Not even remotely alike; none of the matters that you mention is founded in philosophically grounded Calvinist tradition. Be more attentive when you read.

 

[Albion]

Not even remotely alike; none of the matters that you mention is founded in philosophically grounded Calvinist tradition. Be more attentive when you read.

I know. I know. Most converts to Romanism think they are obliged to deny whatever someone says about their new church that is unflattering, no matter whether it is factually correct, or false, or they themselves have no idea since it wasn't covered in the Catechism.

You arent the first.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, unlimited atonement means that all humans, regardless of whether God gives faith or not, have all their sins removed (atoned for) so that they are made holy. THAT is Unlimited Atonement.

No.

You have taken a whole new tack - to change the dogma you have tried to support since you came here. IF this is because God has lead you to read His Word and to realize the horrible error of hyper-Calvinism (especially on this point), then I rejoice. Admit it and let us rejoice.

But as YOU YOURSELF have pointed out repeatedly, the dogma is that JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few." As a Calvinist website defined it, "limited atonement is that Jesus died for the elect alone."

No, we are NOT talking about limited faith or limited results, the dogma is that JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few.

You yourself defined it correctly: "Jesus died only for the church." You gave that EXACT TITLE to one of your threads on that.

When the rest of us said, "NO, Jesus died for all" you rebuked that, ridculed that, said it's contradictory, it's illogical even heretical.

What the dogma is is this: JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few.

What you have been condemning, ridiculing, mocking is this: Jesus died for all.


Again, if you have now read the Scriptures and realized how wrong this hyper-Calvinist invented dogma is.... if you have now come to the same conclusion as every Calvinist personally known to me has..... If you realize your error..... I rejoice. If you are still holding to a dogma of JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few then you are wrong.

TULIP is a counter, opposite set of dogmas to hyper-Arminianism. The opposite at each point is made into dogma. Hyper-Arminianism teaches that Christ died for everyone, hyper-Calvinism responded with the opposite.

TULIP is given as the Calvinists DISTINCTIVE, what makes it unique. Your now trying to say "But Calvinism here AGREES with Arminianism, AGREES with Catholicism, AGREES with Lutheranism, AGREES with Anglicanism, AGREES with everyone - so that's what makes Calvinisms distinctive... well.... that's silly.



No, it is NOT the same to insist, "JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few" and to insist, "Jesus died for everyone." They are opposites. You trying to say they are the same.... well..... OFTEN your "logic" has amazed me.




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[MennoSota]

No.

You have taken a whole new tack - to change the dogma you have tried to support since you came here. IF this is because God has lead you to read His Word and to realize the horrible error of hyper-Calvinism (especially on this point), then I rejoice. Admit it and let us rejoice.

But as YOU YOURSELF have pointed out repeatedly, the dogma is that JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few." As a Calvinist website defined it, "limited atonement is that Jesus died for the elect alone."

No, we are NOT talking about limited faith or limited results, the dogma is that JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few.

You yourself defined it correctly: "Jesus died only for the church." You gave that EXACT TITLE to one of your threads on that.

When the rest of us said, "NO, Jesus died for all" you rebuked that, ridculed that, said it's contradictory, it's illogical even heretical.

What the dogma is is this: JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few.

What you have been condemning, ridiculing, mocking is this: Jesus died for all.


Again, if you have now read the Scriptures and realized how wrong this hyper-Calvinist invented dogma is.... if you have now come to the same conclusion as every Calvinist personally known to me has..... If you realize your error..... I rejoice. If you are still holding to a dogma of JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few then you are wrong.

TULIP is a counter, opposite set of dogmas to hyper-Arminianism. The opposite at each point is made into dogma. Hyper-Arminianism teaches that Christ died for everyone, hyper-Calvinism responded with the opposite.

TULIP is given as the Calvinists DISTINCTIVE, what makes it unique. Your now trying to say "But Calvinism here AGREES with Arminianism, AGREES with Catholicism, AGREES with Lutheranism, AGREES with Anglicanism, AGREES with everyone - so that's what makes Calvinisms distinctive... well.... that's silly.



No, it is NOT the same to insist, "JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few" and to insist, "Jesus died for everyone." They are opposites. You trying to say they are the same.... well..... OFTEN your "logic" has amazed me.




.

Josiah, I read what you say you believe. You believe in limited atonement while attempting to somehow try make it unlimited and universal.
Since God has, from before the foundation of the world, chosen whom are His, there is therefore a limit on whom He has atoned and made holy. This is biblical fact. If all are atoned for, then all are saved. End of discussion.
You cannot honestly say that all are atoned for, but only some are actually atoned unto salvation by faith. That's double jeopardy. That's a judge saying "You are not guilty." "Wait a minute, I have to try those sins a second time and since I couldn't find faith...I now declare you guilty a second time.
God does not do what you are claiming. He does not atone and then later take it back and declare guilty. God just doesn't do it. You are wrong, Josiah.

 

[Josiah]

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[MoreCoffee]

I know. I know. Most converts to Romanism think they are obliged to deny whatever someone says about their new church that is unflattering, no matter whether it is factually correct, or false, or they themselves have no idea since it wasn't covered in the Catechism.

You arent the first.

Now you're blathering incoherent gibberish. That is no improvement over your previous inaccuracy. Try again.

 

[Albion]

Now you're blathering incoherent gibberish.

Ah, thanks for going to your favorite response, used when you are stumped for a good reply--blathering or blather. Love it!

And yes, I already knew that you didn't understand the point about Medieval theology, so a longer explanation was not necessary anyway. :empathy:

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ah, thanks for going to your favorite response, used when you are stumped for a good reply--blathering or blather. Love it!

And yes, I already knew that you didn't understand the point about Medieval theology, so a longer explanation was not necessary anyway. :empathy:

:smirk:

 

[Andrew]

I still believe that the God willing opportunity to save others via spreading the good news -is unlimited, merciful and limitless up until the great and terrible day.
Anything otherwise is simply a random roll of the dice just like how evolutionist believe the universe was created.
I believe God puts a purpose in the hearts of all believers to expound their gratitude and extend it to unbelievers to convert over.
My Dad is a good man and a believer in Christ, I would never ever try to explain the wicked theology to him that he may not even be part of the elect.
A friend of mine had a daughter who passed away at a young age because she was terminal due to a rare retardation and was confined to a deaf and blind state in a wheelchair never able to read the Word, gee how should I break it to him that his prayers for her might not have mattered and that she may be in Hell.
What about Gods Mercy?
I have Faith that Calvinism is ones trespassing on Gods Holy Territory and they should repent ASAP.
I can not for a second relate its theology to the Body of Christ, it sits outside the Elect as a troll or rather a serpent created to accuse the brethren by offering a venomous question "do you really believe that all are worthy to be saved?" hssssssssssss~~~~~~<

Nope nope nope. I pray for many and I will not be told that my prayers are pointless, that even as a believer I should question my Faith or the Faith of others.
I agree that in the end the Elect will be separated once and for all from the wicked and unrepenting masses of sinners, but until the end the Elect remain limitless in all that we know, hope and goodwill AND love/charity towards our ENEMY is our great command from Christ.
End rant!

 

[MennoSota]

God pursues us with a relentless pursuit. He catches and saves everyone the Father has given him. Listen to this testimony of God's grace.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1108917009268710&id=559308540896229

 

[MennoSota]

I still believe that the God willing opportunity to save others via spreading the good news -is unlimited, merciful and limitless up until the great and terrible day.
Anything otherwise is simply a random roll of the dice just like how evolutionist believe the universe was created.
I believe God puts a purpose in the hearts of all believers to expound their gratitude and extend it to unbelievers to convert over.
My Dad is a good man and a believer in Christ, I would never ever try to explain the wicked theology to him that he may not even be part of the elect.
A friend of mine had a daughter who passed away at a young age because she was terminal due to a rare retardation and was confined to a deaf and blind state in a wheelchair never able to read the Word, gee how should I break it to him that his prayers for her might not have mattered and that she may be in Hell.
What about Gods Mercy?
I have Faith that Calvinism is ones trespassing on Gods Holy Territory and they should repent ASAP.
I can not for a second relate its theology to the Body of Christ, it sits outside the Elect as a troll or rather a serpent created to accuse the brethren by offering a venomous question "do you really believe that all are worthy to be saved?" hssssssssssss~~~~~~<

Nope nope nope. I pray for many and I will not be told that my prayers are pointless, that even as a believer I should question my Faith or the Faith of others.
I agree that in the end the Elect will be separated once and for all from the wicked and unrepenting masses of sinners, but until the end the Elect remain limitless in all that we know, hope and goodwill AND love/charity towards our ENEMY is our great command from Christ.
End rant!

The gospel is this.
Christ died for sinners. Believe in his death for you.
Since no one knows whom God has chosen to save, it is pointless to tell someone that they may not ever believe. We just keep sharing the gospel and we let God do the rest.
Andrew, is God evil if he doesn't save rebellious people who by nature hate Him and reject His salvation? Is God at fault?

 

[MoreCoffee]

The gospel is this.
Christ died for sinners.

You left a whole lot out of the gospel; is that because you do not believe it or because you think it is irrelevant that Jesus rose again from the dead, ascended to heaven, and sits at the Father's right hand until all his enemies (Jesus Christ's enemies) are put under his feet? The gospel includes all those things as well as his second advent to judge the living and the dead. The holy scriptures give one summary of the gospel that deals chiefly with the resurrection, it is one of the very few summary statements of the gospel and it says

1 Corinthians 15:2-11 By the Gospel, too, you are being saved, if you hold to the understanding that I preached to you, lest you believe in vain. 3 For I handed on to you, first of all, what I also received: that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures; 4 and that he was buried; and that he rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures; 5 and that he was seen by Cephas, and after that by the eleven. 6 Next he was seen by more than five hundred brothers at one time, many of whom remain, even to the present time, although some have fallen asleep. 7 Next, he was seen by James, then by all the Apostles. 8 And last of all, he was seen also by me, as if I were someone born at the wrong time. 9 For I am the least of the Apostles. I am not worthy to be called an Apostle, because I persecuted the Church of God. 10 But, by the grace of God, I am what I am. And his grace in me has not been empty, since I have labored more abundantly than all of them. Yet it is not I, but the grace of God within me. 11 For whether it is I or they: so we preach, and so you have believed.​

Believe in his death for you.
Since no one knows whom God has chosen to save, it is pointless to tell someone that they may not ever believe. We just keep sharing the gospel and we let God do the rest.
Andrew, is God evil if he doesn't save rebellious people who by nature hate Him and reject His salvation? Is God at fault?

 

[Andrew]

The gospel is this.
Christ died for sinners. Believe in his death for you.
Since no one knows whom God has chosen to save, it is pointless to tell someone that they may not ever believe. We just keep sharing the gospel and we let God do the rest.
Andrew, is God evil if he doesn't save rebellious people who by nature hate Him and reject His salvation? Is God at fault?

No God is not evil.
There is this gifted evangelist who preaches on the streets of California I believe, and he does such an amazing job at getting random atheist to accept Gods message of salvation, he usually always begins with "Christ died for you the sinner"... he first makes them admit that they are a sinner, admit that they deserve hell, admit that they need salvation and so on... not all listen but the few that do and believe is worth it, as long as you find nothing wrong with his missionary statements that God loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved and for them to repent of their sin then we are on the same page.

 

[Albion]

God pursues us with a relentless pursuit. He catches and saves everyone the Father has given him.

But if the Father has indeed given him some, that suggests that the whole world isn't in that category. And you are right that Jesus himself said that the Father had given him some and that they could not be taken from his hand.

So....?

 

[Lamb]

The gospel is this.
Christ died for sinners. Believe in his death for you.
Since no one knows whom God has chosen to save, it is pointless to tell someone that they may not ever believe. We just keep sharing the gospel and we let God do the rest.
Andrew, is God evil if he doesn't save rebellious people who by nature hate Him and reject His salvation? Is God at fault?

You didn't say anything about forgiveness of sins in your Gospel definition? Why not?

 

[MennoSota]

You left a whole lot out of the gospel; is that because you do not believe it or because you think it is irrelevant that Jesus rose again from the dead, ascended to heaven, and sits at the Father's right hand until all his enemies (Jesus Christ's enemies) are put under his feet? The gospel includes all those things as well as his second advent to judge the living and the dead. The holy scriptures give one summary of the gospel that deals chiefly with the resurrection, it is one of the very few summary statements of the gospel and it says

1 Corinthians 15:2-11 By the Gospel, too, you are being saved, if you hold to the understanding that I preached to you, lest you believe in vain. 3 For I handed on to you, first of all, what I also received: that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures; 4 and that he was buried; and that he rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures; 5 and that he was seen by Cephas, and after that by the eleven. 6 Next he was seen by more than five hundred brothers at one time, many of whom remain, even to the present time, although some have fallen asleep. 7 Next, he was seen by James, then by all the Apostles. 8 And last of all, he was seen also by me, as if I were someone born at the wrong time. 9 For I am the least of the Apostles. I am not worthy to be called an Apostle, because I persecuted the Church of God. 10 But, by the grace of God, I am what I am. And his grace in me has not been empty, since I have labored more abundantly than all of them. Yet it is not I, but the grace of God within me. 11 For whether it is I or they: so we preach, and so you have believed.​

I merely kept it simple for this board. Indeed the Resurrection showed that the payment for sin is sufficient.

 

[MennoSota]

No God is not evil.
There is this gifted evangelist who preaches on the streets of California I believe, and he does such an amazing job at getting random atheist to accept Gods message of salvation, he usually always begins with "Christ died for you the sinner"... he first makes them admit that they are a sinner, admit that they deserve hell, admit that they need salvation and so on... not all listen but the few that do and believe is worth it, as long as you find nothing wrong with his missionary statements that God loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved and for them to repent of their sin then we are on the same page.

Those who believe do so because God has chosen to save them. Our task is to speak the gospel. Whether people believe or not is God's task.