Calvinism Vs Arminian

[MennoSota]

When you say "universal" you already take it out of context. 'Sins of the world' means just what it says and all who confess and believe throughout the world are redeemed, may God have mercy on the unbelievers.
God is actively searching the hearts of men, you make it sound like he created the world, pre judged it, and went back to bed with no more thought or concern and no need to wake up or lift a finger.

No, sins of the world means...every sin of every human who ever lived in the world. That is what universal, unlimited, atonement means.

You are "limiting" the atonement only to those who confess and believe. That IS what limited atonement teaches. Only those whom God has chosen to give faith, so that they confess and believe, have their sins atoned. The rest die without ever having their sins atoned. Jesus did not pay the debt owed for their sins. If Jesus had paid for them...those people would have confessed and believed. They could not not believe.

 

[MennoSota]

Quote me saying that each person causes their own salvation (even in part) - the definition of synergism. You have nothing.


You insist that everyone here knows I'm a synergist on justification. Yet you can't seem to find even one who does, much less everyone. You have nothing.


I said NOTHING about any human "displaying" anything, and we all know it. What I said is that I affirm Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. That means where faith in Christ is present, there is justification. That is not synergistic. Especially since I hold that faith is a divine gift.


If you think God contradicts himself, that's your problem. I think there is no contradiction between Christ dying for all but not all being saved because I (unlike you) don't regard faith as irrelevant.






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You claim that a person must have faith and if they do not have faith...then the atonement is not effective.
But...you turn around and say the atonement is unlimited and effective.
Which is it, Josiah? It cannot be both. You cannot have the atonement be universally (unlimited) effective...yet not be universally effective...because many will not display faith. You limit the atonement only to those whom God has given faith...yet you claim it is unlimited.
What huge stumbling block lays before your eyes that you are so blind to your massive conflict and contradiction? I cannot spell it out any more clearly for you.
As long as you make the claims you do, you must, by virtue of your argument, believe that humans are responsible for their own salvation. That is a synergistic/Arminian position. I am sorry you have scales before your eyes so that you cannot see your dilemma.

 

[Andrew]

No, sins of the world means...every sin of every human who ever lived in the world. That is what universal, unlimited, atonement means.

You are "limiting" the atonement only to those who confess and believe. That IS what limited atonement teaches. Only those whom God has chosen to give faith, so that they confess and believe, have their sins atoned. The rest die without ever having their sins atoned. Jesus did not pay the debt owed for their sins. If Jesus had paid for them...those people would have confessed and believed. They could not not believe.

I can agree up to the point until I go around telling people that Christ did not die for the sins of the world, yes we get it Menno, but you are turning something very simple into something very confusing and difficult to grasp. Are we but laymen to you? What difference does it make if you are preaching to the elect anyway?
Yes God chooses who gets into Heaven but Jesus did not say "Father forgive only 1/4th of the world"

 

[Josiah]

You claim that a person must have faith and if they do not have faith...then the atonement is not effective.

Still waiting for the confirmation from everyone at CH that they all know I'm a synergist when it comes to justification. I'm waiting for that.

Still waiting for the quotes where I said each person chooses faith for themselves. Still waiting for that quote from me stating that.




Justification requires more than God's love (which is always the case) and Christ's death (which is always the case). It also requires faith (which isn't always the case).

But...you turn around and say the atonement is unlimited and effective.

You love that shell game...


Friend, there is no dogma of "Limited RESULTS." The dogma is "Christ died ONLY for the few." Don't keep changing the subject.

You cannot have the atonement be universally (unlimited) effective...yet not be universally effective...because many will not display faith.

AGAIN, quote me where I said ANYTHING about ANYTHING being "displayed."

AGAIN, if the sun rises for all but George stays in a cave all day then he doesn't benefit from it; just because George never saw the sun doesn't prove it never rose. You are simply falling into the same illogical absurdity that many hyper-Calvinists have that lead them to universalism. Friend, there's a third part to justification, Sola fide. Faith needs to be present. I never said anyone choose it or manufactures it or displays it, I said where it is present, there is justification and where it is not, there is not. For THIS discussion, it matters not how that faith came about (it's the presence or absence of it that that is the point) but as you know, I hold it is a divine gift.

You limit the atonement only to those whom God has given faith...yet you claim it is unlimited.

AGAIN, if I give a gift to my neighbor and he never opens it, that doesn't prove I never gave the gift. It only shows it was never opened and thus he never benefited from it. If George stays in a cave all day and never sees the sun, that doesn't prove the sun didn't rise that day but it is a dogmatic fact that God causes the sun to rise ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a few. If the US government gives a tax deduction and some never claim it, that doesn't prove that ergo the US Government gave it ONLY, ECLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a few. There's no contradiction, there's just amazing illogic on your end.

And I'm still waiting for the verse that states that Jesus ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST died for a few. And why ALL those many verses that flat-out, verbatim, state the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you do are all totally wrong.

AGAIN, the dogma these few radical latter-day, hyper-Calvinists invented is NOT "Limited Faith" but as you yourself correctly and repeatedly stated, that Christ died ONLY for a few. Stop the shell game. Stop trying to change the topic.

you must believe that humans are responsible for their own salvation.

... and you can't find a single quote where I state that.

... and you can't fine even one of the "Everyone here" who holds that I'm a synergist

... I simply agree with Scripture and 2000 years of Christianity (and with every Calvinists personally known to me) and reject this silly, horrible, unbiblical, illogical idea that Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a few (and thus, odds are, not for you or me - but no one can say). I agree with Scripture: God loves all. Christ died for all. Some have faith and thus benefit from that, some don't and thus don't. No contradiction. No dilemma. Nothing remotely synergistic there (I hold that faith is a divine gift). Why does God not choose to give faith to everyone? A different subject for another day and thread, but I don't know. Unlike you, I don't need to know and I certainly don't need to tell Him so that He will be as logical as I think I am, as smart as I think I am. I just accept what He says. It's called faith. It's called humility. It's called accepting God's sovernighty.

That is a synergistic/Arminian position

No. Synergism is the position that each self is ultimately the cause of their own salvation. I ENTIRELY reject that. I didn't die for myself, Jesus did. And the Holy Spirit gave me faith in that so that I benefit from it.




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[MennoSota]

Quote me saying that each person causes their own salvation (even in part) - the definition of synergism. You have nothing.


You insist that everyone here knows I'm a synergist on justification. Yet you can't seem to find even one who does, much less everyone. You have nothing.


I said NOTHING about any human "displaying" anything, and we all know it. What I said is that I affirm Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. That means where faith in Christ is present, there is justification. That is not synergistic. Especially since I hold that faith is a divine gift.


If you think God contradicts himself, that's your problem. I think there is no contradiction between Christ dying for all but not all being saved because I (unlike you) don't regard faith as irrelevant.






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Josiah, you refuse to acknowledge or see what you have written, which contradicts itself. Deal with that conflict.

 

[MennoSota]

Looks pretty at the surface but it still contradicts Gods Mercy or the prayers of the Saints for Mercy on the world, Jesus even prayed that God the Father forgive everyone.

Where does it contradict mercy?
Every moment that we exist is an example of God's mercy.
Mercy is God not giving us what we deserve.
God has held back in giving people what they deserve. That is mercy. All humanity receives God's mercy continually until death.

 

[MennoSota]

I can agree up to the point until I go around telling people that Christ did not die for the sins of the world, yes we get it Menno, but you are turning something very simple into something very confusing and difficult to grasp. Are we but laymen to you? What difference does it make if you are preaching to the elect anyway?
Yes God chooses who gets into Heaven but Jesus did not say "Father forgive only 1/4th of the world"

So don't tell them a lie.
Tell them that Jesus came to reconcile them with God. If they respond to the call, they may be chosen unto salvation.
It is God who chooses to save, not the human. God may save them. Just tell people the truth that Jesus died for sinners.

 

[MennoSota]

Still waiting for the confirmation from everyone at CH that they all know I'm a synergist when it comes to justification. I'm waiting for that.

Still waiting for the quotes where I said each person chooses faith for themselves. Still waiting for that quote from me stating that.




Justification requires more than God's love (which is always the case) and Christ's death (which is always the case). It also requires faith (which isn't always the case).






You love that shell game...


Friend, there is no dogma of "Limited RESULTS." The dogma is "Christ died ONLY for the few." Don't keep changing the subject.







AGAIN, quote me where I said ANYTHING about ANYTHING being "displayed."

AGAIN, if the sun rises for all but George stays in a cave all day then he doesn't benefit from it; just because George never saw the sun doesn't prove it never rose. You are simply falling into the same illogical absurdity that many hyper-Calvinists have that lead them to universalism. Friend, there's a third part to justification, Sola fide. Faith needs to be present. I never said anyone choose it or manufactures it or displays it, I said where it is present, there is justification and where it is not, there is not. For THIS discussion, it matters not how that faith came about (it's the presence or absence of it that that is the point) but as you know, I hold it is a divine gift.





AGAIN, if I give a gift to my neighbor and he never opens it, that doesn't prove I never gave the gift. It only shows it was never opened and thus he never benefited from it. If George stays in a cave all day and never sees the sun, that doesn't prove the sun didn't rise that day but it is a dogmatic fact that God causes the sun to rise ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a few. If the US government gives a tax deduction and some never claim it, that doesn't prove that ergo the US Government gave it ONLY, ECLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a few. There's no contradiction, there's just amazing illogic on your end.

And I'm still waiting for the verse that states that Jesus ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST died for a few. And why ALL those many verses that flat-out, verbatim, state the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you do are all totally wrong.

AGAIN, the dogma these few radical latter-day, hyper-Calvinists invented is NOT "Limited Faith" but as you yourself correctly and repeatedly stated, that Christ died ONLY for a few. Stop the shell game. Stop trying to change the topic.






... and you can't find a single quote where I state that.

... and you can't fine even one of the "Everyone here" who holds that I'm a synergist

... I simply agree with Scripture and 2000 years of Christianity (and with every Calvinists personally known to me) and reject this silly, horrible, unbiblical, illogical idea that Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a few (and thus, odds are, not for you or me - but no one can say). I agree with Scripture: God loves all. Christ died for all. Some have faith and thus benefit from that, some don't and thus don't. No contradiction. No dilemma. Nothing remotely synergistic there (I hold that faith is a divine gift). Why does God not choose to give faith to everyone? A different subject for another day and thread, but I don't know. Unlike you, I don't need to know and I certainly don't need to tell Him so that He will be as logical as I think I am, as smart as I think I am. I just accept what He says. It's called faith. It's called humility. It's called accepting God's sovernighty.






No. Synergism is the position that each self is ultimately the cause of their own salvation. I ENTIRELY reject that. I didn't die for myself, Jesus did. And the Holy Spirit gave me faith in that so that I benefit from it.




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Still waiting for you to see your massive contradiction and conflict, which is so very, very obvious. It's rather sad that you cannot see the problem.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, you refuse to acknowledge or see what you have written, which contradicts itself. Deal with that conflict.

There is no conflict, as long as one doesn't dismiss faith as you do.

Still waiting for the quotes from me where I state that we are ultimately the cause of our own salvation...

Still waiting for "everyone" at CH to state they "know" I'm a synergist on justification...

Still waiting for the verse that states Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a few and not all.

You reject that faith plays a role.... your insistence that if not ALL benefit from something, it can't be offered to all. It's a silly, absurd argument. And it has nothing to do with synergism (you just think if you can falsely call someone a synergist, that makes you right).


I hold that Jesus died for all (In classic theology, called "Unlimited Atonement") - it doesn't mean all are saved, it does mean Christ died for all. You CLAIM to be in favor of the dogma that Jesus died for only a few, not all (In classic theology, called "Limited Atonement). But so far, in all these various threads, you've not given one verse that remotely supports your position and must TWIST 180 degrees all the MANY verses that say the exact, verbatim opposite in the worse eisegsis I've ever witnessed. You TRY to insist there's some "contradiction" in holding that faith is necessary but it is not a contradiction, it is an additional factor.





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[Andrew]

Where does it contradict mercy?
Every moment that we exist is an example of God's mercy.
Mercy is God not giving us what we deserve.
God has held back in giving people what they deserve. That is mercy. All humanity receives God's mercy continually until death.

God is calling out his people, those whom God has not called on are left to the mercy seat of God at the final judgment when God judges the world. My friends who lack faith aren't just hell bound, I mean I still pray for them and I pray that God have mercy on their souls, is this idea discouraged in Calvinism?

 

[Andrew]

So don't tell them a lie.
Tell them that Jesus came to reconcile them with God. If they respond to the call, they may be chosen unto salvation.
It is God who chooses to save, not the human. God may save them. Just tell people the truth that Jesus died for sinners.

Well I wouldn't be lying if I told them that God forgave them 2000 years ago, they may smirk then and this is grace, all the world are sinners and sinners are forgiven.
Many endure til the end as non believers but I believe that many catch a wind of faith on their death bed and may confess then... did God choose for them to live their life according to their own lustful deeds without God?
Point affirmed that a soon as faith hits a man they are saved by Gods doing.

 

[Josiah]

Well I wouldn't be lying if I told them that God forgave them 2000 years ago, they may smirk then and this is grace, all the world are sinners and sinners are forgiven.
Many endure til the end as non believers but I believe that many catch a wind of faith on their death bed and may confess then... did God choose for them to live their life according to their own lustful deeds without God?
Point affirmed that a soon as faith hits a man they are saved by Gods doing.

Good.


The problem in hyper-Calvinism is that you cannot tell ANYONE (including yourself) that Christ died for you. He probably didn't.

Yes, rejecting hyper-Calvinism means that God's mercy is for ALL, God's Christ is for ALL, you CAN tell yourself and your friend that Christ died for you and he. Now.... the issue is faith. Where faith is present (by the grace of God), we apprehend that atonement won for us 2000 years ago by THE Savior. It's the Protestant position of "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide." Where there is faith in Christ, there IS (with certainty) justification because there IS (with certainty) something for that faith to grasp, embrace, trust because it's for ALL, I don't have to spend all my days worrying if I'm on that short list of people for whom there's something for faith, something for me. I KNOW Christ died for me because He died for all, thus faith is embracing a reality and not a hope that's probably in vain.

 

[MennoSota]

There is no conflict, as long as one doesn't dismiss faith as you do.

Still waiting for the quotes from me where I state that we are ultimately the cause of our own salvation...

Still waiting for "everyone" at CH to state they "know" I'm a synergist on justification...

Still waiting for the verse that states Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a few and not all.

You reject that faith plays a role.... your insistence that if not ALL benefit from something, it can't be offered to all. It's a silly, absurd argument. And it has nothing to do with synergism (you just think if you can falsely call someone a synergist, that makes you right).


I hold that Jesus died for all (In classic theology, called "Unlimited Atonement") - it doesn't mean all are saved, it does mean Christ died for all. You CLAIM to be in favor of the dogma that Jesus died for only a few, not all (In classic theology, called "Limited Atonement). But so far, in all these various threads, you've not given one verse that remotely supports your position and must TWIST 180 degrees all the MANY verses that say the exact, verbatim opposite in the worse eisegsis I've ever witnessed. You TRY to insist there's some "contradiction" in holding that faith is necessary but it is not a contradiction, it is an additional factor.





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No one dismisses faith. But, unlike you, I recognized that Christ's atonement is only for those to whom God gives faith. You make atonement universal and then declare it to be utterly ineffective for the majority whom God never gave faith.
You have Jesus blood spilt out in vain.
I see Jesus blood spilt so that every drop is effective unto redemption. It's sad to see you treat Jesus blood as ineffective because lack of faith trumps Jesus sacrifice.

 

[MennoSota]

God is calling out his people, those whom God has not called on are left to the mercy seat of God at the final judgment when God judges the world. My friends who lack faith aren't just hell bound, I mean I still pray for them and I pray that God have mercy on their souls, is this idea discouraged in Calvinism?

There is no mercy seat for the unreconciled. There is only the white throne judgment.
God was merciful unto their death. Then comes the judgment. Pray that people hear God's call and are quickened by God to eternal life.

 

[MennoSota]

Well I wouldn't be lying if I told them that God forgave them 2000 years ago, they may smirk then and this is grace, all the world are sinners and sinners are forgiven.
Many endure til the end as non believers but I believe that many catch a wind of faith on their death bed and may confess then... did God choose for them to live their life according to their own lustful deeds without God?
Point affirmed that a soon as faith hits a man they are saved by Gods doing.

Sure you'd be lying. God doesn't forgive sinners whom He has not atoned.
If God has atoned for their sins, then they are not only forgiven, but they are saved unto eternity.
Why would God forgive them and then send those whom He has forgiven to Hell?

 

[Andrew]

Good.


The problem in hyper-Calvinism is that you cannot tell ANYONE (including yourself) that Christ died for you. He probably didn't.

Yes, rejecting hyper-Calvinism means that God's mercy is for ALL

Yup!

It bugs me that anybody can assume the territory of God by judging sinners as if they know God better than the general elect. Like they are outside the box of some inferior belief, Faith adds souls to Salvation daily. I don't know my fate for certain and I would be a liar if I said I did Mercy!
Thank God for his impenetrable merciful Mystery who saves all the wretched foolish and wise.

Gods people in the OT were exclusive, but Christ granted the gentiles salvation 2000 years ago.
Mercy and Salvation is extended throughout the world for all who confess and believe, finished, once and for all.

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world"
1 John 2:2

 

[Andrew]

Sure you'd be lying. God doesn't forgive sinners whom He has not atoned.
If God has atoned for their sins, then they are not only forgiven, but they are saved unto eternity.
Why would God forgive them and then send those whom He has forgiven to Hell?

Point is that you don't know who is the elect anyway, you will never know in this life, so may we pray personally for a brother or sister whom has not confessed Jesus as their Lord or is it condemned in Calvinism?
Would you consider it superstition to pray for all of the unsaved?

 

[Josiah]

Sure you'd be lying. God doesn't forgive sinners whom He has not atoned.

....and since odds are He didn't atone for YOUR sins, you are in a heap of trouble (and uncertainty). And God give no record of the short list for whom Christ died (but you probably aren't on it). According to hyper-Calvinisms and this horrible invented dogma of a few hyper-Calvinists in the late 16th Century.

 

[pinacled]

Yup!

It bugs me that anybody can assume the territory of God by judging sinners as if they know God better than the general elect. Like they are outside the box of some inferior belief, Faith adds souls to Salvation daily. I don't know my fate for certain and I would be a liar if I said I did Mercy!
Thank God for his impenetrable merciful Mystery who saves all the wretched foolish and wise.

Gods people in the OT were exclusive, but Christ granted the gentiles salvation 2000 years ago.
Mercy and Salvation is extended throughout the world for all who confess and believe, finished, once and for all.

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world"
1 John 2:2

If you are having difficulty with righteous judment.

Both conspiricacy to commit and commit murder are blasphemy of the Rusch Hakodosh.

Do u understand?

When our Reddemer spoke of loving an enemy I sugest looking at ur own household of wolves.
The binyamins of hatred found at the entrance of a cave.
If only the wolf with eyes of gold were to realize that power corrupts.
No, that western seat was established for another.
The deaf wolf had keen eyes for a moment while the jackals howled.

Yet the youngsters here are hard of hearing.

 

[MennoSota]

Point is that you don't know who is the elect anyway, you will never know in this life, so may we pray personally for a brother or sister whom has not confessed Jesus as their Lord or is it condemned in Calvinism?
Would you consider it superstition to pray for all of the unsaved?

Of course I don't know whom God has elected. This is why we share the gospel with all. My lack of knowledge does not negate the fact that God only forgiven those for whom Jesus atonement is effective. Only those for whom Jesus atonement is effective will have faith.