Calvinism Vs Arminian

[Andrew]

I found this very interesting.
The first video is on Calvinism but it speaks much on the Arminian responses as well, and the second video is visa versa.
https://youtu.be/_RQhIr6tKyQ
https://youtu.be/Tj6I1ycrfv0

 

[MoreCoffee]

All one need know is that Calvinism is very very naughty!

:smirk:

 

[Andrew]

All one need know is that Calvinism is very very naughty!

:smirk:

Indeed all denominations are fairly close but 'no cigar'.
I can kind of twist things around in my head until I agree (to a certain degree) on what Calvinist believes but ...it's also so far off at the same time IMO, the Arminian counter theology is just as close but I lean (if I must) more toward the more Arminian theology.
If I had to choose I would pick about 50 percent of each side... which would cancel out the other anyway and I would just remain non denominational like I currently am

 

[Josiah]

Indeed all denominations are fairly close but 'no cigar'.
I can kind of twist things around in my head until I agree (to a certain degree) on what Calvinist believes but ...it's also so far off at the same time IMO, the Arminian counter theology is just as close but I lean (if I must) more toward the more Arminian theology.
If I had to choose I would pick about 50 percent of each side... which would cancel out the other anyway and I would just remain non denominational like I currently am

Hyper-Calvinism and hyper-Arminianism are both radical. new. very tight systems invented in the late 16th Century. Both are equally unbiblical and depend on extremely high esteem that each "side" has in the "logic" of self alone and the "answers" that self alone gives to the questions self alone asks self.

There is a good reason that both have been very well rebuking the other for nearly 500 years - because both are wrong. Both sides have proven this for centuries.

But because of the extreme ego of both camps..... because neither side seems to care much about Scripture or Tradition.... because both are convinced self can't be wrong... it gets nowhere.

There is a reason why the vast majority of Christians have rejected both of these positions. To stand with Scripture and Christian history mandates that.

 

[MennoSota]

Indeed all denominations are fairly close but 'no cigar'.
I can kind of twist things around in my head until I agree (to a certain degree) on what Calvinist believes but ...it's also so far off at the same time IMO, the Arminian counter theology is just as close but I lean (if I must) more toward the more Arminian theology.
If I had to choose I would pick about 50 percent of each side... which would cancel out the other anyway and I would just remain non denominational like I currently am

This is termed "synergism," which is what people do when trying to rationalize and still maintain control over their life rather than accept the full sovereign rule of God over all aspects of life.

 

[MennoSota]

Hyper-Calvinism and hyper-Arminianism are both radical. new. very tight systems invented in the late 16th Century. Both are equally unbiblical and depend on extremely high esteem that each "side" has in the "logic" of self alone and the "answers" that self alone gives to the questions self alone asks self.

There is a good reason that both have been very well rebuking the other for nearly 500 years - because both are wrong. Both sides have proven this for centuries.

But because of the extreme ego of both camps..... because neither side seems to care much about Scripture or Tradition.... because both are convinced self can't be wrong... it gets nowhere.

There is a reason why the vast majority of Christians have rejected both of these positions. To stand with Scripture and Christian history mandates that.

Hyper is a made-up term by synergists such as yourself, Josiah, who cannot accept that God is 100% Lord over all areas of life.
You can claim to be a monergist until the cows come home, but your position is purely synergist...like all Arminians.
Ego is always a factor with humans. However, scripture guides over ego. Yet, you still ignore scripture in regard to God's atonement.
For you:
God's atonement is universal, but God's ability to save is limited. God fails to save because human will is greater than God's will.
For me:
God's atonement is limited, but God's ability to save all He's chosen is universal. God successfully saves all whom He has chosen because God's will is greater than the human rebellion against God.

 

[Albion]

Hyper is a made-up term by synergists such as yourself, Josiah, who cannot accept that God is 100% Lord over all areas of life.

I don't think that it actually is.

However, the term refers to a fringe of the Calvinist/Reformed churches which hold that since God has predetermined the eternal fate of each person, it is pointless for Christians to engage in any mission work. While that may seem logical at first glance, it conflicts with the majority opinion among Calvinists.

 

[MennoSota]

I don't think that it actually is.

However, the term refers to a fringe of the Calvinist/Reformed churches which hold that since God has predetermined the eternal fate of each person, it is pointless for Christians to engage in any mission work. While that may seem logical at first glance, it conflicts with the majority opinion among Calvinists.

There may be those who do not evangelize and thus fail to obey God's command, but they are not being biblical. Most Reformed person's are very missional. We see our role as ambassadors of reconciliation, sending out the call to reconciliation so that all might hear...knowing that only the elect will respond.
It is utterly silly of Josiah to try label all Reformed believers as hyper just because they recognize all five tenets of TULIP. Believing in particular atonement does not make someone "hyper," but it does make one biblically sound in lifting up the full Sovereignty of God.

 

[Josiah]

Hyper is a made-up term by synergists such as yourself, Josiah

How you discredit yourself when you evade discussion by accusing others of ABSURD things. Everyone here KNOWS I'm not a synergist.


Interesting how hyper-Calvinists go on constantly about how logical they are.... and they prove themselves right by FALSELY accusing others of being wrong on some other matter and "ERGO" declare self right about something else.

No, as everyone knows, I'm not a synergist. But that doesn't make me a hyper-Calvinist, it just makes me a monergist.

you cannot accept that God is 100% Lord over all areas of life.

Quote me where I stated that.

You have that problem with MUCH that you post, you have zero substantiation, nothing to quote.


I accept that God is 100% Lord over all. That doesn't make hyper-Calvinism or hyper-Arminianism correct.

scripture guides over ego

I agree. So, we're all still waiting for that verse that says "Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the few, the elect, the church."


Hyper-Calvinism and Arminianism are both radical, late, tight constructs that are NOT at all biblical or traditionally Christian. Both are the result of very egotistical men appointing self to ask questions and then designated self to answer them and then turning those into dogmas (which God must accept or He is illogical). Each CLAIMS their construct is logical bur it is OBVIOUS they are anything but (as each side proves of the other). Each side CLAIMS their invention is bibical but neither can find verses that remotely say what they do and must radically spin a LOT of Scriptures to say the opposite of what they do to avoid admitting their stance is actually very unbiblical.


Admittedly, there is MYSTERY involved in Christian theology at times; God has not revealed or explained everything (nor is He obligated to do so), We can ask questions but no one appointed anyone to answer them dogmatically and then tell God He's wrong when God says otherwise. Luther said, "Humility is the foundation of all sound theology." That includes the humility to SHUT UP, to not think ourselves smarter than God or appoint self as the corrector of God. We'll have "loose ends".... there will be times we can't "connect the dots." It's okay. God is soveriegn, not self. God's ways are NOT our ways. What God says is true - whether we can wrap our puny, fallen, limited, sinful brains around it or not. God is Lord of us.... it's not the other way around.

For you: God's atonement is universal, but God's ability to save is limited. God fails to save because human will is greater than God's will.

Quote me where I stated that.

You know you can't because everyone here at CH knows I've never said that and never taught that. I hold to the Protestant Theology of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. When faith in Christ is present, justification is present.

For me: God successfully saves all whom He has chosen because God's will is greater than the human rebellion against God.

True enough, that just has nothing to do with TULIP and nothing to do with the radical dogma invented by a few latter-day hyper-Calvinists that Jesus died for ONLY a few. You like to play the shell game, always changing the subject.



Arminians came up with a tight, closed system - it seemed "logical" to him but it's simply against Scripture and Christian history (and logic, too)

Some hyper, extreme, latter-day Calvinists (realizing Arminius was wrong) simply reversed everything to come up with an EQUALLY tight, closed system that seemed "logical" to them but simply is against Scripture and Christian history (and logic, too)

Both sides have proven the other to be both unbiblical and illogical - and they are both right. But since both are profoundly egotistical, because both are tight and closed systems, because both thing THEIR (terrible!) logic trumps Scripture, either sees what is obvious.



Now, if you want to change the subject to Monergism vs. Synergism, we'll be on the same page.




.

 

[Albion]

There may be those who do not evangelize and thus fail to obey God's command, but they are not being biblical. Most Reformed person's are very missional. We see our role as ambassadors of reconciliation, sending out the call to reconciliation so that all might hear...knowing that only the elect will respond.

Fine, but I was simply addressing the meaning of the word itself.

 

[MennoSota]

How you discredit yourself when you evade discussion by accusing others of ABSURD things. Everyone here KNOWS I'm not a synergist.


Interesting how hyper-Calvinists go on constantly about how logical they are.... and they prove themselves right by FALSELY accusing others of being wrong on some other matter and "ERGO" declare self right about something else.

No, as everyone knows, I'm not a synergist. But that doesn't make me a hyper-Calvinist, it just makes me a monergist.







Quote me where I stated that.

You have that problem with MUCH that you post, you have zero substantiation, nothing to quote.


I accept that God is 100% Lord over all. That doesn't make hyper-Calvinism or hyper-Arminianism correct.







I agree. So, we're all still waiting for that verse that says "Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the few, the elect, the church."


Hyper-Calvinism and Arminianism are both radical, late, tight constructs that are NOT at all biblical or traditionally Christian. Both are the result of very egotistical men appointing self to ask questions and then designated self to answer them and then turning those into dogmas (which God must accept or He is illogical). Each CLAIMS their construct is logical bur it is OBVIOUS they are anything but (as each side proves of the other). Each side CLAIMS their invention is bibical but neither can find verses that remotely say what they do and must radically spin a LOT of Scriptures to say the opposite of what they do to avoid admitting their stance is actually very unbiblical.


Admittedly, there is MYSTERY involved in Christian theology at times; God has not revealed or explained everything (nor is He obligated to do so), We can ask questions but no one appointed anyone to answer them dogmatically and then tell God He's wrong when God says otherwise. Luther said, "Humility is the foundation of all sound theology." That includes the humility to SHUT UP, to not think ourselves smarter than God or appoint self as the corrector of God. We'll have "loose ends".... there will be times we can't "connect the dots." It's okay. God is soveriegn, not self. God's ways are NOT our ways. What God says is true - whether we can wrap our puny, fallen, limited, sinful brains around it or not. God is Lord of us.... it's not the other way around.






Quote me where I stated that.

You know you can't because everyone here at CH knows I've never said that and never taught that. I hold to the Protestant Theology of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. When faith in Christ is present, justification is present.






True enough, that just has nothing to do with TULIP and nothing to do with the radical dogma invented by a few latter-day hyper-Calvinists that Jesus died for ONLY a few. You like to play the shell game, always changing the subject.



Arminians came up with a tight, closed system - it seemed "logical" to him but it's simply against Scripture and Christian history (and logic, too)

Some hyper, extreme, latter-day Calvinists (realizing Arminius was wrong) simply reversed everything to come up with an EQUALLY tight, closed system that seemed "logical" to them but simply is against Scripture and Christian history (and logic, too)

Both sides have proven the other to be both unbiblical and illogical - and they are both right. But since both are profoundly egotistical, because both are tight and closed systems, because both thing THEIR (terrible!) logic trumps Scripture, either sees what is obvious.



Now, if you want to change the subject to Monergism vs. Synergism, we'll be on the same page.




.

Josiah, everyone who reads your position on atonement unto salvation knows very well that you have a synergistic/Arminian position of salvation. You can deny it until the cows come home, but by virtue of your own understanding of atonement, you are...and always have been...a synergist.
Once you grasp and accept particular atonement as a very a building block that perfectly connects to election and irresistible grace, you will be a monergist. Until then, you are claiming a title that you are not expressing in your theology. Josiah, you are much closer to Roman Catholicism than to Reformed faith based upon your own teaching. This is evident to all who grasp your beliefs.

 

[MennoSota]

Fine, but I was simply addressing the meaning of the word itself.

The word itself is created by people who wish to discredit the belief that God is 100% Sovereign over all creation and that God alone is the Savior of mankind.
So very many Christians want to make themselves the savior by declaring that they freely chose to let God give them a hand. Had they not extended their hand, God could never have saved them. God would somehow be incapable of scooping them up against their own will.

How silly is that. The very idea that God couldn't/wouldn't do something because humans willed against God is just preposterous and foolish. It cheapens God to some spineless deity while it lifts up humans as most powerful. I shudder that I once held such a view, yet I am amazed at God's grace in loving me despite the low view of His Sovereignty that I once had.

 

[Josiah]

The word itself is created by people who wish to discredit the belief that God is 100% Sovereign over all creation and that God alone is the Savior of mankind.

A position known as Monergism, not Calvinism or Arminianism.

Your promoting that God is the Savior has NOTHING to do with substantiating TULIP, after all, the vast majority of monergists aren't hyper-Calvinists.

Try sticking to the subject and stopping "the shell game."

Josiah, everyone knows very well that you have a synergistic/Arminian position of salvation.

Prove it.


You can't quote me ever teaching that (which is why you don't quote me, you can't).


So, let's try this. Contact each of the following.... they all know my position on salvation... and ask them if my position is synergistic/Arminian.


Albion
Andrew
Brighten04
Cassia
ConfessionalLutheran
Doug
Hammster
hedrick
ICOBVS
ImaginaryDay2
Linart
LutheranChick
Lammchen
PezGirl173
Psalms 91
Sean611
Tango
Tigger
TurleHare


Since "everyone here knows" that I have a synergistic view of salvation, all of these will state that. Or maybe everyone knows you are just absurdly and falsely trying to accuse others of something because your logic tells you that makes you right.




.






.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Tulip is the acronym that comes to mind when discussing Calvinism as it is today.

Total depravity,
Unconditional election,
Limited atonement,
Irresistible grace, and
Perseverance of the saints.

Which bodies of professing Christians accept each of those Doctrines?

Who here in CH accepts the T (total depravity) doctrine? Who knows what it really means?

The same questions apply to each letter in TULIP: who in CH accepts the doctrine of the letter and who knows what it really means?

 

[Andrew]

Tulip is the acronym that comes to mind when discussing Calvinism as it is today.

Total depravity,
Unconditional election,
Limited atonement,
Irresistible grace, and
Perseverance of the saints.

Which bodies of professing Christians accept each of those Doctrines?

Who here in CH accepts the T (total depravity) doctrine? Who knows what it really means?

The same questions apply to each letter in TULIP: who in CH accepts the doctrine of the letter and who knows what it really means?

The video on Calvinism does an interesting run through on TULIP along with bible scripture to 'support' each letter and also scripture to rail against it as well.

 

[MennoSota]

A position known as Monergism, not Calvinism or Arminianism.

Your promoting that God is the Savior has NOTHING to do with substantiating TULIP, after all, the vast majority of monergists aren't hyper-Calvinists.

Try sticking to the subject and stopping "the shell game."







Prove it.


You can't quote me ever teaching that (which is why you don't quote me, you can't).


So, let's try this. Contact each of the following.... they all know my position on salvation... and ask them if my position is synergistic/Arminian.


Albion
Andrew
Brighten04
Cassia
ConfessionalLutheran
Doug
Hammster
hedrick
ICOBVS
ImaginaryDay2
Linart
LutheranChick
Lammchen
PezGirl173
Psalms 91
Sean611
Tango
Tigger
TurleHare


Since "everyone here knows" that I have a synergistic view of salvation, all of these will state that. Or maybe everyone knows you are just absurdly and falsely trying to accuse others of something because your logic tells you that makes you right.




.






.

You teach that God universally atones for all sin, but saves only on a limited basis based upon whether a human displays faith or not.

You utterly contradict yourself. Your position is synergistic. It is not my problem that you cannot see your contradiction.

 

[MennoSota]

Total depravity = Corrupt in our nature, we can never attain holiness by our own merit.

Unconditional election = God chooses without requiring human merit.

Limited atonement = Particular atonement for the unconditionally elect--God saves all for whom He chose to die.

Irresistible grace = God's election is sure. Humans cannot reject God when He chooses to save.

Perseverance of the saints = God gives the gift of faith to the elect so that they can not not believe. The elect will endure in faith to the end.

These are very biblical truths. People who reject them, are people who are repelled by the thought of God being absolutely in control of His creation.

 

[Andrew]

You teach that God universally atones for all sin, but saves only on a limited basis based upon whether a human displays faith or not.

You utterly contradict yourself. Your position is synergistic. It is not my problem that you cannot see your contradiction.

When you say "universal" you already take it out of context. 'Sins of the world' means just what it says and all who confess and believe throughout the world are redeemed, may God have mercy on the unbelievers.
God is actively searching the hearts of men, you make it sound like he created the world, pre judged it, and went back to bed with no more thought or concern and no need to wake up or lift a finger.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, everyone knows very well that you have a synergistic/Arminian position of salvation.

Prove it.


You can't quote me ever teaching that (which is why you don't quote me, you can't).


So, let's try this. Contact each of the following.... they all know my position on salvation... and ask them if my position is synergistic/Arminian.


Albion
Andrew
Brighten04
Cassia
ConfessionalLutheran
Doug
Hammster
hedrick
ICOBVS
ImaginaryDay2
Linart
LutheranChick
Lammchen
PezGirl173
Psalms 91
Sean611
Tango
Tigger
TurleHare


Since "everyone here knows" that I have a synergistic view of salvation, all of these will state that. Or maybe everyone knows you are just absurdly and falsely trying to accuse others of something because your logic tells you that makes you right.




.

You teach that God universally atones for all sin, but saves only on a limited basis based upon whether a human displays faith or not.

Quote me saying that each person causes their own salvation (even in part) - the definition of synergism. You have nothing.


You insist that everyone here knows I'm a synergist on justification. Yet you can't seem to find even one who does, much less everyone. You have nothing.


I said NOTHING about any human "displaying" anything, and we all know it. What I said is that I affirm Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. That means where faith in Christ is present, there is justification. That is not synergistic. Especially since I hold that faith is a divine gift.


If you think God contradicts himself, that's your problem. I think there is no contradiction between Christ dying for all but not all being saved because I (unlike you) don't regard faith as irrelevant.






.

 

[Andrew]

Total depravity = Corrupt in our nature, we can never attain holiness by our own merit.

Unconditional election = God chooses without requiring human merit.

Limited atonement = Particular atonement for the unconditionally elect--God saves all for whom He chose to die.

Irresistible grace = God's election is sure. Humans cannot reject God when He chooses to save.

Perseverance of the saints = God gives the gift of faith to the elect so that they can not not believe. The elect will endure in faith to the end.

These are very biblical truths. People who reject them, are people who are repelled by the thought of God being absolutely in control of His creation.

Looks pretty at the surface but it still contradicts Gods Mercy or the prayers of the Saints for Mercy on the world, Jesus even prayed that God the Father forgive everyone.