The myth of free-will destroyed by scripture.

[MennoSota]

2 Timothy 2:25-26
God*may perhaps grant them repentance*leading to a knowledge of the truth,*26and they may come to their senses and escape from*the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Notice that God grants or does not grant repentance.
One does not choose...or not choose to repent on their own...by their free-will. No. God determines by either granting or not granting repentance.

Scripture, yet again, eliminating the philosophy of free-will as playing any part in a person's salvation.

 

[Arsenios]

Notice that God grants or does not grant repentance.
One does not choose...or not choose to repent on their own...by their free-will. No. God determines by either granting or not granting repentance.

Scripture, yet again, eliminating the philosophy of free-will as playing any part in a person's salvation.

Context is never a bad thing:

2Ti 2:22-26
Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

You see, if God will but give them repentance from denying the truth, then they should recover themselves...

This is speaking not of free will, but of knowledge of truth - eg If God give them Truth, which they do not have...

THEN...

They will, by the very same free will with which they were formerly opposing themselves, can now stop opposing themselves, and live the Truth...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]

Joshua 24:14-28 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. 16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; 17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed: 18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God. 19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. 21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD. 22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses. 23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel. 24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey. 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. 28 So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance.

Evidently The LORD is not opposed to people choosing who they will serve.

 

[MennoSota]

Context is never a bad thing:

2Ti 2:22-26
Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

You see, if God will but give them repentance from denying the truth, then they should recover themselves...

This is speaking not of free will, but of knowledge of truth - eg If God give them Truth, which they do not have...

THEN...

They will, by the very same free will with which they were formerly opposing themselves, can now stop opposing themselves, and live the Truth...


Arsenios

You need to look one sentence further. They are in the snare of the devil. They are enslaved. They are captured. They are not free. No matter how you squirm...you are a slave to the devil. Your only hope is that God would grant you repentance.
No free-will in salvation, Arsenios.
By the way, thanks for seeking out the context.

 

[MennoSota]

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]

Joshua 24:14-28 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. 16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; 17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed: 18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God. 19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. 21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD. 22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses. 23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel. 24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey. 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. 28 So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance.

Evidently The LORD is not opposed to people choosing who they will serve.

MC, We have gone over this. Joshua shares in this passage that the Hebrews can not be righteous by their own will power. The entire idea of "choose whom you will serve" is an exercise in pointing out that they cannot attain self-righteousness and follow God. They will fail.

 

[MennoSota]

[MENTION=60]MoreCoffee[/MENTION]
Second, note that God has already chosen Israel. They are under the Abrahamic Covenant. They are children of the promise. Will they obey or not. Indeed, they cannot. Our self-righteousness is as filthy rags.
Joshua 24 isn't about eternal salvation. To use it as a imagined free-will passage is to once again abuse scripture.

19But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the*Lord, for he is*a holy God. He is*a jealous God;*he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins.*20If you forsake the*Lordand serve foreign gods, then*he will turn and do you harm and consume you, after having done you good.”*

 

[Arsenios]

You need to look one sentence further. They are in the snare of the devil. They are enslaved. They are captured. They are not free. No matter how you squirm...you are a slave to the devil. Your only hope is that God would grant you repentance.

They are captivated by deception, Menno...
They need repentance unto acknowledging the truth...
THEN will they stop opposing themselves...
BECAUSE they have free will...
But wrongly guided by deception...

It happened the same in the Garden...
Eve was deceived...
Adam followed...
Both fell in that deception...
By their own will they fell into disobedience...
You and I are no different...
And by our own will...
We will re-enter obedience to God...
IF He grants us repentance unto acknowledging the truth...

You cannot leave the Fall out of our Recovery from that fall...

By the way, thanks for seeking out the context.

Just practicing obedience...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]

It's interesting how there's always, in your opinion, a reason to dismiss what holy scripture says and substitute your religion's tradition in its place.

 

[hedrick]

Scripture isn't black and white on this issue. It speaks both of the need for God to illuminate us through the Holy Spirit, and for us to make decisions. Note the context: we correct people who are wrong, asking God that they may see the truth. So our correction matters.

All Christians accept that we only understand God because of the Holy Spirit. So we all pray for God to help people understand the truth. But that doesn't mean that it's God unilaterally changing their minds, and I think there's good reason to reject that model.

vs 26 implies that those with a wrong understanding are captive to the devil (a statement that I wouldn't take too literally, by the way). God's action is needed to free them from that captivity. But that can be understood as restoring their ability to choose.

Augustine seems to have argued that once our wills were freed, we would always make the right choice. So the critical question is whether God chooses to free us. But I think this kind of scheme goes well beyond what 2 Tim says.

 

[MennoSota]

They are captivated by deception, Menno...
They need repentance unto acknowledging the truth...
THEN will they stop opposing themselves...
BECAUSE they have free will...
But wrongly guided by deception...

It happened the same in the Garden...
Eve was deceived...
Adam followed...
Both fell in that deception...
By their own will they fell into disobedience...
You and I are no different...
And by our own will...
We will re-enter obedience to God...
IF He grants us repentance unto acknowledging the truth...

You cannot leave the Fall out of our Recovery from that fall...




Just practicing obedience...


Arsenios

Captivated = enslaved

The passage says that God must grant them repentance because they are enslaved. Captivated, using your term.

This passage in 2 Timothy 2 matches up wonderfully with Romans 9.

The concept of free-will choice unto salvation is simply not presented in scripture.

 

[Josiah]

It's really just this easy...


Who is the Savior?


IF it's Jesus, then Jesus is the Savior. And salvation is something Jesus does. And since faith is how that we apprehended in the case of a person, that is a part of salvation - thus Scripture would be correct that repeatedly says that the dead, atheistic, enemy of God does not manufactor faith but that God gives it, as an aspect of saving us.

IF it's self, then yup - self saves self by what self does. The popular Protestant form of self-saying -self is that self (somehow) creates faith in self and this good work self performs (as a dead atheistic enemy of God void of the Holy Spirit) is rewarded with heaven. The sometime Catholic or Mormon view of this is that self saves self by his/her good life as a dead, atheistic, enemy of God and this is rewarded with heaven.


Lutherans are strongly monergists not only because this is what Scripture (and the Ecumenical Council of Orange and the Nicene Creed) says, but mostly because we believe that Jesus is the Savior. HOWEVER, we hold that the "how" of all this is largely MYSTERY, how God saves (especially in the case of an individual) is a matter largely unexplained. Clearly, our "will" is somehow involved but this cannot mean that our will is what results in our being saved. THEORIES that contradict what Scripture says (no matter how "reasonable" to fallen man) MUST be rejected. However it's done, GOD does it (not in any way or sense, self). And thus, we are strong Monergists.



- Josiah



.

 

[MennoSota]

Scripture isn't black and white on this issue. It speaks both of the need for God to illuminate us through the Holy Spirit, and for us to make decisions. Note the context: we correct people who are wrong, asking God that they may see the truth. So our correction matters.

All Christians accept that we only understand God because of the Holy Spirit. So we all pray for God to help people understand the truth. But that doesn't mean that it's God unilaterally changing their minds, and I think there's good reason to reject that model.

vs 26 implies that those with a wrong understanding are captive to the devil (a statement that I wouldn't take too literally, by the way). God's action is needed to free them from that captivity. But that can be understood as restoring their ability to choose.

Augustine seems to have argued that once our wills were freed, we would always make the right choice. So the critical question is whether God chooses to free us. But I think this kind of scheme goes well beyond what 2 Tim says.

I agree that humans make decisions. Making decisions does not equal free will. Ask a slave if being able to decide how to do the job his master requires makes him free.

 

[MennoSota]

It's really just this easy...


Who is the Savior?


IF it's Jesus, then Jesus is the Savior. And salvation is something Jesus does. And since faith is how that we apprehended in the case of a person, that is a part of salvation - thus Scripture would be correct that repeatedly says that the dead, atheistic, enemy of God does not manufactor faith but that God gives it, as an aspect of saving us.

IF it's self, then yup - self saves self by what self does. The popular Protestant form of self-saying -self is that self (somehow) creates faith in self and this good work self performs (as a dead atheistic enemy of God void of the Holy Spirit) is rewarded with heaven. The sometime Catholic or Mormon view of this is that self saves self by his/her good life as a dead, atheistic, enemy of God and this is rewarded with heaven.


Lutherans are strongly monergists not only because this is what Scripture (and the Ecumenical Council of Orange and the Nicene Creed) says, but mostly because we believe that Jesus is the Savior. HOWEVER, we hold that the "how" of all this is largely MYSTERY, how God saves (especially in the case of an individual) is a matter largely unexplained. Clearly, our "will" is somehow involved but this cannot mean that our will is what results in our being saved. THEORIES that contradict what Scripture says (no matter how "reasonable" to fallen man) MUST be rejected. However it's done, GOD does it (not in any way or sense, self). And thus, we are strong Monergists.



- Josiah



.

Josiah, it's always interesting to see you argue limited atonement and yet not see your own argument. However, you are correct. God must give faith and quicken it.

 

[MennoSota]

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]

It's interesting how there's always, in your opinion, a reason to dismiss what holy scripture says and substitute your religion's tradition in its place.

Do you have my "religions" catechism to show my "traditions?"

 

[pinacled]

Context is never a bad thing:

2Ti 2:22-26
Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

You see, if God will but give them repentance from denying the truth, then they should recover themselves...

This is speaking not of free will, but of knowledge of truth - eg If God give them Truth, which they do not have...

THEN...

They will, by the very same free will with which they were formerly opposing themselves, can now stop opposing themselves, and live the Truth...


Arsenios

"Blessed are the pure in heart.........."

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, it's always interesting to see you argue limited atonement and yet not see your own argument. However, you are correct. God must give faith and quicken it.

Of course, I reject that new hyper-Calvinist dogma tht Jesus died for only a few.... for exactly the identical reasons that I accept monergism.

 

[Andrew]

Menno if I may, you are not asserting whether I choose to sit or stand. What you are trying to get across is that 'will' is defined as Gods will or the devils will (sin), we are slaves to sin and in that we have no free will. God gives his elect HIS will, but its never up to us to choose his will for him, he chooses his first fruits by HIS Will... am I close?

 

[MennoSota]

Of course, I reject that new hyper-Calvinist dogma tht Jesus died for only a few.... for exactly the identical reasons that I accept monergism.

You teach particular atonement, yet reject it at the same time. It is fascinating.

 

[MennoSota]

Menno if I may, you are not asserting whether I choose to sit or stand. What you are trying to get across is that 'will' is defined as Gods will or the devils will (sin), we are slaves to sin and in that we have no will. God gives his elect HIS will, but its never up to us to choose his will for him, he chooses his first fruits by HIS Will... am I close?

We cannot will our freedom from either the shackles of sin or the grace of God. Freedom is an illusion of man's mind, expressed in an attempt to dethrone anyone who dares to declare we are slaves.
Our very existence wholly relies on God's mercy, yet we foolishly claim free-will.
No, in regards to our salvation, we are utterly dependent upon God's choosing.

 

[Andrew]

We cannot will our freedom from either the shackles of sin or the grace of God. Freedom is an illusion of man's mind, expressed in an attempt to dethrone anyone who dares to declare we are slaves.
Our very existence wholly relies on God's mercy, yet we foolishly claim free-will.
No, in regards to our salvation, we are utterly dependent upon God's choosing.

So lets say I am playing some stupid Nintendo game and I choose to either hit A or not... we are not talking about that correct? Terrible analogy I know but for sake of conversation you are defining 'will' as either good or evil, since we are all slaves to sin we have no free 'will', we are doomed from birth to be slaves to sin but God chooses our 'will' for us?