Sinless Mary

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
So many traditions you have added that are illegitimate, Arsenios.
I really wish you would toss them away where they belong.
But, alas, you have faith in your traditions apart from Christ Jesus.
Your faith is misplaced.

The Apostolic Church is the Body of Christ Who is Her Head...

I believe the Bible:


2Th 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast,
and hold the traditions which ye have been taught,
whether by word,
or
by our epistle.


His Epistles are ONE source of Tradition...
ORAL Teachings are another...

Don't you believe the Bible?


Arsenios
 
Last edited:

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
The Apostolic Church is the Body of Christ Who is Her Head...

I believe the Bible:


2Th 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast,
and hold the traditions which ye have been taught,
whether by word,
or
by our epistle.


His Epistles are ONE source of Tradition...
ORAL Teachings are another...

Don't you believe the Bible?


Arsenios
No the Apostolic Church is a figment of your faulty church tradition. Christ chooses His church from every tribe and tongue. God used his Apostles to write scripture and proclaim the gospel. Scripture guides us. Throw your faulty traditions away. Embrace the cross expressed in scripture.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
No the Apostolic Church is a figment of your faulty church tradition. Christ chooses His church from every tribe and tongue. God used his Apostles to write scripture and proclaim the gospel. Scripture guides us. Throw your faulty traditions away. Embrace the cross expressed in scripture.

I simply will not ignore Scripture as you insist I do...

I will not remove 2Th 2:15 from the Bible...

Why are you removing it from the Bible?


Arsenios
 

Azrael

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
82
Age
51
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
It has come to pass.
 

Azrael

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
82
Age
51
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
The middle of every middle.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
I simply will not ignore Scripture as you insist I do...

I will not remove 2Th 2:15 from the Bible...

Why are you removing it from the Bible?


Arsenios
Let's add the entire passage for context, Arsenios. Let it be known that the passage has nothing to do with Apostolic Church or Apostolic Succession.
8Remember Jesus Christ,*risen from the dead, the*offspring of David,*as preached in my gospel,*9for which I am suffering,*bound with chains as a criminal. But*the word of God is not bound!*10Therefore*I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain*the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with*eternal glory.*11The saying is*trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also*live with him;

12if we endure, we will also reign with him;

if we deny him, he also will deny us;

13if we are faithless,*he remains faithful—

for*he cannot deny himself.

A Worker Approved by God

14Remind them of these things, and*charge them before Godnot to quarrel about words,*which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.*15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,*a worker*who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.*16But*avoid*irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,*17and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are*Hymenaeus and Philetus,*18who have swerved from the truth,*saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.*19But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal:*“The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone*who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,199
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Let's add the entire passage for context, Arsenios.

You appear to have a magical view of context. You aver that quoting a longer passage somehow makes a specific verse cease to mean what it says as if by the magic incantation formed by the surrounding words the words in the specific verse cease to mean anything at all.

If you want context then try reading the passage in its context and then see if that makes the words in the verse disappear.

Usually it will not happen that way.

Here is the KJV immediate context for verse 15.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-17

and verse 15 still says: 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
 

Azrael

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
82
Age
51
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
ff44078ea9f9144ab39e1bdcd28e129f.jpg



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Let's add the entire passage for context, Arsenios. Let it be known that the passage has nothing to do with Apostolic Church or Apostolic Succession.
8Remember Jesus Christ,*risen from the dead, the*offspring of David,*as preached in my gospel,*9for which I am suffering,*bound with chains as a criminal. But*the word of God is not bound!*10Therefore*I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain*the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with*eternal glory.*11The saying is*trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also*live with him;

12if we endure, we will also reign with him;

if we deny him, he also will deny us;

13if we are faithless,*he remains faithful—

for*he cannot deny himself.

A Worker Approved by God

14Remind them of these things, and*charge them before Godnot to quarrel about words,*which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.*15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,*a worker*who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.*16But*avoid*irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,*17and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are*Hymenaeus and Philetus,*18who have swerved from the truth,*saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.*19But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal:*“The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone*who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”
An ex once told me that in her homeland of Mexico people there relate 'the lady of Guadalupe' to 'the Blessed Mary' because of their lack of motherly guidance and perhaps not having a motherly figure in their lives at all.
Talking about her absolute sinlessness is mind numbing for me because I just don't get it. When I say "but she called Christ her personal Savior" I get back "from Original Sin" and then here we go on about Original Sin which personally draws scales over my eyes (or so it seems) but the bible clearly expounds that 'all fall short and is deserving of death'... Mary obviously sinned 7 times a day which we all do, she was no exception and like any sinner should she confessed Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior despite the fact that she was a blessed vessel chosen by God and a firm believer in her God but she is not equal to the Savior in fair comparison.
God I love the Catholic people with all my heart and respect but we are all sinful creatures from birth (Cain was the first baby btw)... and no one else other than Jesus the Son of man and Son of God is an exception. No Papal figure, absolutely no body is Jesus Christ period, not even close... be not deceived.
 
Last edited:

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
You appear to have a magical view of context. You aver that quoting a longer passage somehow makes a specific verse cease to mean what it says as if by the magic incantation formed by the surrounding words the words in the specific verse cease to mean anything at all.

If you want context then try reading the passage in its context and then see if that makes the words in the verse disappear.

Usually it will not happen that way.

Here is the KJV immediate context for verse 15.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-17

and verse 15 still says: 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Adding context allows people to actually know what that particular phrase means MC. It also allows others to read and see how horribly wrong you are in your interpretation.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Let's add the entire passage for context, Arsenios. Let it be known that the passage has nothing to do with Apostolic Church or Apostolic Succession.
8Remember Jesus Christ,*risen from the dead, the*offspring of David,*as preached in my gospel,*9for which I am suffering,*bound with chains as a criminal. But*the word of God is not bound!*10Therefore*I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain*the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with*eternal glory.*11The saying is*trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also*live with him;

12if we endure, we will also reign with him;

if we deny him, he also will deny us;

13if we are faithless,*he remains faithful—

for*he cannot deny himself.

A Worker Approved by God

14Remind them of these things, and*charge them before Godnot to quarrel about words,*which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.*15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,*a worker*who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.*16But*avoid*irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,*17and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are*Hymenaeus and Philetus,*18who have swerved from the truth,*saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.*19But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal:*“The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone*who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

Thank you for supporting my point:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and
hold the traditions which ye have been taught,
whether by word,
or
by our epistle.


I looked for this quote in your "entire context" and it seems to have been removed by someone who was perhaps re-writing the Bible???

I mean why would anyone remove a part of the Bible with which he disagreed?

Do you really think the Bible does not mean what is says?

I cannot even begin to believe THAT, Menno...

I been hangin' with you too long now to even imagine you MIGHT think such a thing...

Right??? :):)


Arsenios
 
Last edited:

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Thank you for supporting my point:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and
hold the traditions which ye have been taught,
whether by word,
or
by our epistle.


I looked for this quote in your "entire context" and it seems to have been removed by someone who was perhaps re-writing the Bible???

I mean why would anyone remove a part of the Bible with which he disagreed?

Do you really think the Bible does not mean what is says?

I cannot even begin to believe THAT, Menno...

I been hangin' with you too long now to even imagine you MIGHT think such a thing...

Right??? :):)


Arsenios
So...how do you get your translation from this...

15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
It truly amazes me how Arsenios and MC run loose with the scriptures to concoct the foolish idea of Apostolic tradition via their denominational dogma.
Let the reader consider the context of Thessalonians 2 and see if Arsenios abusive thinking fits with what God is actually saying.
1Now concerning*the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ...
...we ask you, brothers,2not to be quickly shaken in mind or*alarmed, either*by a spirit or a*spoken word, or*a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that*the day of the Lord has come.*
3Let no one deceive you in any way...
5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
6And you know what is restraining him now...
...Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.*8And then*the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus*will kill with*the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by*the appearance of his coming.
11Therefore*God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe*what is false,*12in order that all may be condemned*who did not believe the truth but*had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But*we ought always to give thanks to God for you,*brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you*as the firstfruitsto be saved,*through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.*14To this he called you through*our gospel,*so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.*
15So then, brothers,*stand firm and hold to*the traditions that you were taught by us, either*by our spoken word or by*our letter.

16Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father,*who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good*hope through grace,*17comfort your hearts and*establish them in every good work and word.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
So...how do you get your translation from this...?

15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

You seem to have mis-placed 2Thessalonians 2:15

What were you citing with your citation??


Arsenios
 
Last edited:

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Got it - Thanks...

I affirm both...

Why not you?

Arsenios
Arsenios, why do you imagine your interpretation of a sentence can sustain an entire church dogma? Your church has fallen into worship with its traditions that have no connection to Christ or the Apostles and it rips sentences from the Bible, out of context, to establish faulty beliefs. It is EXACTLY what the Jewish leaders did so that they could not, indeed would not, believe Jesus. Why would you endorse the same faulty practice of tradition, Arsenios?
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Arsenios, why do you imagine your interpretation of a sentence can sustain an entire church dogma?

You have it backwards - Church dogma supports my interpretation...

Your Church has fallen into worship with its traditions that have no connection to Christ or the Apostles and it rips sentences from the Bible, out of context, to establish faulty beliefs.

That is your ever-present accusation without proof...
My Church is world-wide and ongoing for 2000 years and does not brook new doctrines...

It is EXACTLY what the Jewish leaders did so that they could not, indeed would not, believe Jesus.

Actually, my Brother, they rejected Christ because of the Pharisitic leaven: Hypocrisy...

Why would you endorse the same faulty practice of tradition, Arsenios?

Do you really think I am a judgmental hypocrite, Menno??

Back to point - Why not affirm both passages of the Bible?

I sure do...


Arsenios
 
Top Bottom