Short story by your truly (Holy Spirit Baptism)

[psalms 91]

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I thank Dhoffmann for his response (Post #29), and assure him that no personal slight was intended.

My Post (#28) was in fact designed to trigger a response from someone (anyone) that would allow me to tender this current Post.

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Much unscriptural terminology is associated with the religious movement generally described as “Pentecostal”. Unscriptural practice as well.

“Slain in the Spirit” is a prominent example of both.

The practice (if not the terminology), is sometimes attributed to the Airport Vineyard church in Toronto, but had actually been around for donkey’s years before that. The general “slain in the Spirit” environment includes observable physical contact (both actual and threatened) to induce people to fall over backwards.

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What is not realised by most people (because they don’t have the information) is that inducing a person to fall backwards for the first time is a powerful psychological technique. Especially when there is someone there to catch them. The technique is used with great effect in business-based team building exercises and management training.

The experience of voluntarily falling backwards produces a strong rush of emotions, one of which is an overwhelming feeling of relief. People can naturally look forward to repetitions of the experience, but repetitions are not normally permitted in training environments – the emotional height of the original experience is channelled for other purposes.

In religious circles, the repetition is psychologically welcomed and of protracted psychological benefit. That psychological benefit extends to the associated practice of self-initiated collapsing on cue.

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So there are some aspects of the “Pentecostal” environment (some, at least) that appear to have roots deep within the human psyche, and have nothing to do with God. Awareness of that can help lead to a more balanced view. So can the question: Were these practices employed by the Apostles (in particular) and within the apostolic church (in general)?

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Persito in answer to your question of slain in the spirit I have known many that have had this happen with no laying on of hands and have seen the work of the spirit in their lives so no it is not pushing someone over and any who would do that are fakes. As for biblical reference I would point to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus and those who travelled with him

 

[MennoSota]

I also discern truth from my experiences with God and what the Holy Spirit leads me into as others here have testified yet you throw that to the ground and trample it underfoot.

It's not tossed to the ground. It's your inability to validate through the word of God. That failure is entirely on you. It is just as likely that the Holy Spirit has had nothing, zero, to do with the path you have taken.
The only way that path can be discerned is through scripture.
91, thousands of cults have been formed through your method of "Spirit" leading (thousands is conservative).
So be it. Run from the word of God if your wish. It is your path to weave.

 

[MennoSota]

I was led into those experiences by the Holy Spirit and ministered by Him so no not my experience but His

That is no different than what Joseph Smith proclaimed. Was Joseph Smith lead by the Spirit, 91?
How can we discern whether Joseph Smith was or wasn't lead by the Holy Spirit into his experiences?

 

[Albion]

I was led into those experiences by the Holy Spirit and ministered by Him so no not my experience but His

You prefer to think that it was the Holy Spirit, that's all. It is the revealed word of God that charts God's actions in our lives, not our emotions.

 

[Cassia]

When experience matches scripture as to the workings of the Holy Spirit it seems it would be safe to say one has experienced the workings of the Holy Spirit at that point in one’s life. How could the experience of the Holy Spirit not be called experience unless one has not experienced it? And how could one not feel peace and joy?

 

[Andrew]

That is no different than what Joseph Smith proclaimed. Was Joseph Smith lead by the Spirit, 91?
How can we discern whether Joseph Smith was or wasn't lead by the Holy Spirit into his experiences?

I wonder now if Simon saw an outpouring of the spirit of Joseph Smith, I mean he witnessed something of the sort and was willing to pay money for the gift of healing... These were unlearned (..had no NT to 'save' them) and non baptised people who received the "spirit"... so they say, but I'm going to be like you and say that it's impossible! Fooey!
You can stop picking on Psalms 91 for that same reason, yes God can pick and choose any individuals sudden conversion and laying on of hands is sometimes involved... that doesn't mean that you should blindly believe everyones claims and it's really not even of your concern but just don't say its impossible when Scripture tells us it is.

 

[Andrew]

Persito in answer to your question of slain in the spirit I have known many that have had this happen with no laying on of hands and have seen the work of the spirit in their lives so no it is not pushing someone over and any who would do that are fakes. As for biblical reference I would point to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus and those who travelled with him

Exactly, God can intervene at any given moment, in a twinkling of an eye, to say it's impossible is rather ignorant of someone claiming to know the bible.
Does that mean that they should believe every person that claims to be struck with the Spirit? I pray not! .. It's not up to bystanders to decide whether or not if God has touched someone, how ridiculous! Like you said, ask and you shall receive.

 

[Albion]

When experience matches scripture as to the workings of the Holy Spirit it seems it would be safe to say one has experienced the workings of the Holy Spirit at that point in one’s life. How could the experience of the Holy Spirit not be called experience unless one has not experienced it? And how could one not feel peace and joy?

Let's be serious about that. It is one thing to say that God can do this or that, and it is quite another to say that all the claimed experiences supposedly coming upon people, including all the instances which are -- on their face -- phony, simply must be accorded the same degree of credibility.

And, by the way, there are all sorts of claims being made about the Holy Spirit gifting someone in some way that are NOT in agreement with Scripture, even while others are or may be! But, that's of no concern to the claimant since his wish to be Holy Spirit possessed is supposed by enthusiasts always to be the only thing that matters.

 

[MennoSota]

I wonder now if Simon saw an outpouring of the spirit of Joseph Smith, I mean he witnessed something of the sort and was willing to pay money for the gift of healing... These were unlearned (..had no NT to 'save' them) and non baptised people who received the "spirit"... so they say, but I'm going to be like you and say that it's impossible! Fooey!
You can stop picking on Psalms 91 for that same reason, yes God can pick and choose any individuals sudden conversion and laying on of hands is sometimes involved... that doesn't mean that you should blindly believe everyones claims and it's really not even of your concern but just don't say its impossible when Scripture tells us it is.

We know that Simon saw an opportunity to make money and gain power over others. Simon looked on the outward and missed the inward.

9*But there was a man named Simon,*who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria,*saying that he himself was somebody great.*10*They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying,*“This man is the power of God that is called*Great.”11*And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had*amazed them with his magic.*12*But when*they believed Philip as he preached good news*about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ,*they were baptized, both men and women.*13*Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And*seeing signs and*great miracles*performed,*he was amazed.

14*Now when*the apostles at Jerusalem heard that*Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,*15*who came down and prayed for them*that they might receive the Holy Spirit,*16*for*he had not yet*fallen on any of them, but*they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.*17*Then*they laid their hands on them and*they received the Holy Spirit.*18*Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,*19*saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”*20*But Peter said to him,*“May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God*with money!21*You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for*your heart is not right before God.*22*Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that,*if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.*23*For I see that you are in*the gall*of bitterness and in*the bond of iniquity.”*24*And Simon answered,*“Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

In this passage we don't see any spirit possession happening where people cannot stand up. We don't see that in Acts 2 either. In fact, not once does the Bible share that the filling of the Spirit causes people to be tossed around like a rag doll.
Simon was looking for power and monetary gain. Sadly, this is still a major problem in the church.

 

[psalms 91]

You prefer to think that it was the Holy Spirit, that's all. It is the revealed word of God that charts God's actions in our lives, not our emotions.

The Word agrees with my experieence you just dont want to believe it

 

[psalms 91]

We know that Simon saw an opportunity to make money and gain power over others. Simon looked on the outward and missed the inward.

In this passage we don't see any spirit possession happening where people cannot stand up. We don't see that in Acts 2 either. In fact, not once does the Bible share that the filling of the Spirit causes people to be tossed around like a rag doll.
Simon was looking for power and monetary gain. Sadly, this is still a major problem in the church.

So is dooubt and unbelief as witnessed in this thread I am done unless someone else wants to attack my beliefs and experiences, I am done and will put anyone who chooses to continue to do that on ignore since I will know exactly what spirit is in operation doing that

 

[MennoSota]

So is dooubt and unbelief as witnessed in this thread I am done unless someone else wants to attack my beliefs and experiences, I am done and will put anyone who chooses to continue to do that on ignore since I will know exactly what spirit is in operation doing that

There is no doubt or unbelief in the work of the Holy Spirit.
There is doubt that the experience, without any discernment through God's word, is actually a work of the Holy Spirit.
The claim that "I believe it, therefore it is entirely and authentically true" must be discerned via God's word. Otherwise, the claims of Joseph Smith must also be entirely and authentically true.
However, we know that Joseph Smith's experience and claims directly contradict scripture, therefore, we unequivocally proclaim his experiences and beliefs to be false and not any work of the Holy Spirit.
91, your claim that people doubt the work of the Holy Spirit merely because they doubt your experience is entirely fallacious on your part. What I have asked for and never received is biblical support for your claim.
The work of the Holy Spirit is not in question.

 

[Andrew]

We know that Simon saw an opportunity to make money and gain power over others. Simon looked on the outward and missed the inward.

In this passage we don't see any spirit possession happening where people cannot stand up. We don't see that in Acts 2 either. In fact, not once does the Bible share that the filling of the Spirit causes people to be tossed around like a rag doll.
Simon was looking for power and monetary gain. Sadly, this is still a major problem in the church.

I'm not talking about getting tossed about like a rag doll, I'm talking about laying on of hands and receiving the Holy Spirit baptism.
Simons motives were unjust no argument there, and some churches definitely have a problem with greed and putting on shows so no argument there either.

 

[psalms 91]

There is no doubt or unbelief in the work of the Holy Spirit.
There is doubt that the experience, without any discernment through God's word, is actually a work of the Holy Spirit.
The claim that "I believe it, therefore it is entirely and authentically true" must be discerned via God's word. Otherwise, the claims of Joseph Smith must also be entirely and authentically true.
However, we know that Joseph Smith's experience and claims directly contradict scripture, therefore, we unequivocally proclaim his experiences and beliefs to be false and not any work of the Holy Spirit.
91, your claim that people doubt the work of the Holy Spirit merely because they doubt your experience is entirely fallacious on your part. What I have asked for and never received is biblical support for your claim.
The work of the Holy Spirit is not in question.

I have given scripture in Sauls experience but you must not count that and as for anything else ask the Holy Spirit and see what He tells you, you do hear from Him do you not since you seem to judge what is and isnt of Him, I assume you have asked before condemning that which is His work but in your terms might be. Slippery slope if you are not hearing from Him

 

[MennoSota]

I'm not talking about getting tossed about like a rag doll, I'm talking about laying on of hands and receiving the Holy Spirit baptism.
Simons motives were unjust no argument there, and some churches definitely have a problem with greed and putting on shows so no argument there either.

The receiving of the Spirit by laying on of hands is only applicable to the Apostles at the start of the church.
We receive the Holy Spirit by God making us alive in Christ.
Trying to mimick the Apostles in order to "experience" receiving the Holy Spirit is unnecessary and not required by scripture.

 

[MennoSota]

I have given scripture in Sauls experience but you must not count that and as for anything else ask the Holy Spirit and see what He tells you, you do hear from Him do you not since you seem to judge what is and isnt of Him, I assume you have asked before condemning that which is His work but in your terms might be. Slippery slope if you are not hearing from Him

Apostolic manifestation of the Holy Spirit is not present today. There is no direction in scripture and no need.

 

[Andrew]

The receiving of the Spirit by laying on of hands is only applicable to the Apostles at the start of the church.
We receive the Holy Spirit by God making us alive in Christ.
Trying to mimick the Apostles in order to "experience" receiving the Holy Spirit is unnecessary and not required by scripture.

Not just for the apostles but also for their servants and so on...

"Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."
1 Timothy 4:14

You can call laying on of hands an imitation of the Apostles all you want Menno, you can also call the Apostles laying on of hands an imitation of Christ laying on of hands and healing the sick.

Charity is an interaction and there is power in the name of Christ Jesus... stop denying Gods workmanship, no one here disagrees that the Holy Spirit comes from God alone but you continue to dismiss his Charity through his believers.
For example a non believer having not the Spirit cannot possibly administer Gods charity through laying on of hands to help heal the sick, but it's possible for Gods believers having the Spirit to pray over someone and using hands to administer Gods Charity through them.
Have you received the gift of the Holy Spirit since you believed? Indeed today many Christians have no idea what the gift of the Holy Spirit is or if they even have it or not... not saying you don't and I'm not saying that the only way to get is through a physical medium, that again is church dogma.
Laying on of hands was administered to both baptised and non baptised, to the believer and non believers in a time when there was no NT bible. Jesus definitely did not say "make sure you pass out books to everyone so that they may be saved" no no, he said to go out and preach and heal the sick.

 

[Albion]

I'm not talking about getting tossed about like a rag doll, I'm talking about laying on of hands and receiving the Holy Spirit baptism.

I get it. However, I think you have to recognize the position that non-Charismatic Christians are put in by the folks who are true believers in this sort of thing.

To Charismatics/Pentecostals, and especially those who belong to explicitly Pentecostal churches, we either accept every last instance or claim of there being a reception of the Holy Spirit this way...or else the same identical scorn is going to be forthcoming ("You must not have the Holy Spirit;" "You just aren't willing to believe;" etc. etc. etc.).

 

[Andrew]

I get it. However, I think you have to recognize the position that non-Charismatic Christians are put in by the folks who are true believers in this sort of thing.

To Charismatics/Pentecostals, and especially those who belong to explicitly Pentecostal churches, we either accept every last instance or claim of there being a reception of the Holy Spirit this way...or else the same identical scorn is going to be forthcoming ("You must not have the Holy Spirit;" "You just aren't willing to believe;" etc. etc. etc.).

Of course I realize that dogma, I cringed everytime the preacher would shout "AND YOU MUST SPEAK IN TONGUES AS EVIDENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT LIKE THE BIBLE SAYS!!!"
I know that the Spirit was given to me by God alone but I had to depart from that particular congregation because they made it all about them, I'm thankful that I caught on and did my homework due to my hunch that something was off.

 

[MennoSota]

Not just for the apostles but also for their servants and so on...

"Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."
1 Timothy 4:14

You can call laying on of hands an imitation of the Apostles all you want Menno, you can also call the Apostles laying on of hands an imitation of Christ laying on of hands and healing the sick.

Charity is an interaction and there is power in the name of Christ Jesus... stop denying Gods workmanship, no one here disagrees that the Holy Spirit comes from God alone but you continue to dismiss his Charity through his believers.
For example a non believer having not the Spirit cannot possibly administer Gods charity through laying on of hands to help heal the sick, but it's possible for Gods believers having the Spirit to pray over someone and using hands to administer Gods Charity through them.
Have you received the gift of the Holy Spirit since you believed? Indeed today many Christians have no idea what the gift of the Holy Spirit is or if they even have it or not... not saying you don't and I'm not saying that the only way to get is through a physical medium, that again is church dogma.
Laying on of hands was administered to both baptised and non baptised, to the believer and non believers in a time when there was no NT bible. Jesus definitely did not say "make sure you pass out books to everyone so that they may be saved" no no, he said to go out and preach and heal the sick.

Where are you and me told to lay our hands on others so they can receive the Holy Spirit? Where are we told that the Holy Spirit cannot fill us unless someone lays their hands on us and invokes the Holy Spirit to indwell us?
Paul spoke directly to Timothy regarding a specific event that was specifically for Timothy. Are there living Apostles today who walked with Jesus that do the same with all Christians?
We must let scripture guide us lest we end up worshipping a false god created by our own minds for our own narcissistic edification.