Short story by your truly (Holy Spirit Baptism)

[Andrew]

Not at all DHoffman. We annoint the sick with oil as James tells us. We pray with laying on of hands. There is no doubt that God heals outside of any medical assistance. I have seen it happen with my first born whom I thought might die in his first weeks of life.
What I find unnecessary is a videotape manifestation for others to view. It strikes me as purely Corinthian childishness and self-agrandizement. Let God be God. There is no biblical indication of people flopping around like fish on the shoreline in the Bible.

Im glad to read that from you Menno and I agree about the video part... I don't know that lady anyway or those people, I was just telling a story that relates to an experience I had, I didn't act like her but I was merely expressing the humiliation she offered as I did. Point I was trying to get across was that after going through such an unusual act the after effects -like coming home and crying in my room and such -is something unseen by others and I just wanted to share that experience.
The video again is not 'evidence' of the Holy Spirit... and again, yes praying with laying on of hands can produce healing of the soul, so I believe we agree well enough.

 

[psalms 91]

Menno rejects scriptural support for laying on of hands, he is simply deny deny deny as if it's somehow irrelevant and pointless for us to do nowadays... :/ ... Albion at least considers the possibilities and God knows it would be ignorant for us to blindly accept and believe everything anyone claims.
I understand you though and I'm not trying to debate with Menno or anyone for that matter, we know that laying on of hands and administering the Spirit is possible today as it was back then.

I agree and lets face it they dont like it when I say check with the Spirit, wonder why that is? And yes, not all experiences are genuine but the spirit will tell you what is fake and what isnt and you dont close down the moving of the spirit just because there are those who would fake the experience and those who cant tell the difference because they dont ask the spirit to show them

 

[psalms 91]

No one speaks against the Holy Spirit when they doubt behaviors are coming by influence of the Holy Spirit rather than some other influence.
Clearly you think these actions are induced by the Holy Spirit. Other Christians can say otherwise and they are not speaking against the Holy Spirit.
It seems you may pridefully think your opinion is Spirit lead while others therefore cannot be Spirit lead. I still point you to Jonathan Edwards book, "Religious Affections" as an excellent look at the work of the Holy Spirit. I would hope you would read it and take it seriously since Edwards experienced the Great Awakening first hand. It is, after all, the greatest spiritual revival ever known to North America.

Have you or they heard from the spirit about these? I think not since it seems to be human reasoning and fear that speaks. Yes fear, fear of fakes and not knowing the difference

 

[MennoSota]

Or let the doubters speak against the Holy Spirit. I will withdraw from this discussion but will not brook mocking of what I believe or anyone else who also believes

No mocking. Edwards did an excellent job discussing the behaviors he witnessed during the Great Awakening. Not once does he deny the Holy Spirit directing the Awakening. He, instead, discusses what the movement of the Spirit is...and is not.
It would not hurt you one bit to read what he had to say.

 

[MennoSota]

Have you or they heard from the spirit about these? I think not since it seems to be human reasoning and fear that speaks. Yes fear, fear of fakes and not knowing the difference

What does God tell us in His word, 91? This is our revelation. There is no need to look elsewhere.

 

[Andrew]

What does God tell us in His word, Hoffman? This is our revelation. There is no need to look elsewhere.

Are you asking me or Psalms?
You quoted him not me

 

[MennoSota]

Are you asking me or Psalms?
You quoted him not me

Whoops.

 

[Pedrito]

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DHoffmann (Post #7):

...hit with the Holy Ghost...

Exactly the way Jesus and the Apostles would have expressed the idea.

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[Andrew]

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DHoffmann (Post #7):


Exactly the way Jesus and the Apostles would have expressed the idea.

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Hit as in unexpected, out of nowhere, like a thief in the night.. but no I doubt the Apostles would say "have you been hit with the Holy Ghost since you believed?" lol but it sure did catch Paul off guard on his way to Damascus wouldn't you agree?

 

[Albion]

Well I agree with you again.
I also do not like the smug attitude nor the idea that God is holding out on others while tossing gifts out to Charismatic/Pentecostals or that unless you act crazy and make unintelligible utterances-that you are lacking the Holy Spirit.
I'm sure you are aware that these are the reasons I left that church in the first place.
I miss the people and I still watch some sermons online (they cut out all the wild stuff, just the lesson), but for me personally it did become a huge act and I wasn't going to parade around anymore and the tongues ceased after a few into it anyway.
Keep in mind I was a druggy before so a good hard slap in the face by God (if I may) is just part of my testimony and I am thankful for that because who knows I might not have been alive today.
I particularly like your attitude Albion and I understand exactly how you feel.

Thank you, my friend. I guess that I mainly wanted to get those points *on the record* as it were...and do so early in the discussion before it took off in who-knows-what-direction thanks to posts by other people joining in. I do believe that the points I raised have to be factored into in any discussion on this topic so that there is not just the usual he said/she said stuff in which opposing sides trade claims to being the one that really, really understands Scripture. Sigh.

Yes, I do remember some of our earlier discussions when you were active in that church, and I thought they were worthwhile for both of us. But, honestly, I do not recall all of the information anymore concerning your departure or anything about that druggy part you just referred to.

 

[Andrew]

Thank you, my friend. I guess that I mainly wanted to get those points *on the record* as it were...and do so early in the discussion before it took off in who-knows-what-direction thanks to posts by other people joining in. I do believe that the points I raised have to be factored into in any discussion on this topic so that there is not just the usual he said/she said stuff in which opposing sides trade claims to being the one that really, really understands Scripture. Sigh.

Yes, I do remember some of our earlier discussions when you were active in that church, and I thought they were worthwhile for both of us. But, honestly, I do not recall all of the information anymore concerning your departure or anything about that druggy part you just referred to.

I was addicted to prescription drugs and it was something I prayed about over and over again, a friend dragged me to one of the services there and my prayers were answered... the want was gone and I was delivered! So I have mad respect for that church I really do, I know what's its like to have the entire congregation praying over you like no other church has done before, it was a real outpouring of the Spirit in my case and I will always hold that to heart.
I don't believe however that the Spirit parts and that you have to receive it again and again, I couldn't fake it and I would have continued with that church if I could also relax and sit and listen in the pews and not be expected to run around and dance like the first time... that and some bad theology also crept up to the surface and I just couldn't agree with most of it.

 

[psalms 91]

What does God tell us in His word, 91? This is our revelation. There is no need to look elsewhere.

If you want to operate in your humanism anbd leave the direction of the spirit out that is up to you, good luck with that.

 

[MennoSota]

If you want to operate in your humanism anbd leave the direction of the spirit out that is up to you, good luck with that.

91, the scripture is our guide and the Spirit counsels through scripture. That is the direction of the Spirit. Humanism avoids scripture and relies on experience. Please look in the mirror.

 

[Albion]

I was addicted to prescription drugs and it was something I prayed about over and over again, a friend dragged me to one of the services there and my prayers were answered... the want was gone and I was delivered! So I have mad respect for that church I really do, I know what's its like to have the entire congregation praying over you like no other church has done before, it was a real outpouring of the Spirit in my case and I will always hold that to heart.

I can well appreciate how that affected you, both the problem and then the deliverance. In a less critical but related way, I have often reflected upon the fact that the churches I most identify with when it comes to beliefs and worship style, etc. are put to shame by ones that I do not identify with but whose people, in their attitudes and behavior, are great examples of what a Christian ought to be. Thank God for them.

 

[psalms 91]

91, the scripture is our guide and the Spirit counsels through scripture. That is the direction of the Spirit. Humanism avoids scripture and relies on experience. Please look in the mirror.

You have a right to believe as you wish as do I and my experience tells me you are wrong, dead wrong but only the spirit can show you that not I

 

[MennoSota]

You have a right to believe as you wish as do I and my experience tells me you are wrong, dead wrong but only the spirit can show you that not I

Your feelings are irrelevant. That becomes a pointless game of emotional opinion. We discern truth through scripture. This is how Jonathan Edwards discerned the movement of the Holy Spirit in the Great Awakening.
It is apparent that you refuse to place your opinion before scripture and let scripture discern its truth or falsehood. I find it concerning that you shy and hide from the light of scripture as the Holy Spirit gives counsel through scripture.

 

[psalms 91]

Your feelings are irrelevant. That becomes a pointless game of emotional opinion. We discern truth through scripture. This is how Jonathan Edwards discerned the movement of the Holy Spirit in the Great Awakening.
It is apparent that you refuse to place your opinion before scripture and let scripture discern its truth or falsehood. I find it concerning that you shy and hide from the light of scripture as the Holy Spirit gives counsel through scripture.

I also discern truth from my experiences with God and what the Holy Spirit leads me into as others here have testified yet you throw that to the ground and trample it underfoot.

 

[Albion]

You have a right to believe as you wish as do I and my experience tells me you are wrong, dead wrong but only the spirit can show you that not I

But to be fair, you ARE insisting here that your experiences have decided the matter, not the Holy Spirit.

 

[Pedrito]

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I thank Dhoffmann for his response (Post #29), and assure him that no personal slight was intended.

My Post (#28) was in fact designed to trigger a response from someone (anyone) that would allow me to tender this current Post.

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Much unscriptural terminology is associated with the religious movement generally described as “Pentecostal”. Unscriptural practice as well.

“Slain in the Spirit” is a prominent example of both.

The practice (if not the terminology), is sometimes attributed to the Airport Vineyard church in Toronto, but had actually been around for donkey’s years before that. The general “slain in the Spirit” environment includes observable physical contact (both actual and threatened) to induce people to fall over backwards.

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What is not realised by most people (because they don’t have the information) is that inducing a person to fall backwards for the first time is a powerful psychological technique. Especially when there is someone there to catch them. The technique is used with great effect in business-based team building exercises and management training.

The experience of voluntarily falling backwards produces a strong rush of emotions, one of which is an overwhelming feeling of relief. People can naturally look forward to repetitions of the experience, but repetitions are not normally permitted in training environments – the emotional height of the original experience is channelled for other purposes.

In religious circles, the repetition is psychologically welcomed and of protracted psychological benefit. That psychological benefit extends to the associated practice of self-initiated collapsing on cue.

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So there are some aspects of the “Pentecostal” environment (some, at least) that appear to have roots deep within the human psyche, and have nothing to do with God. Awareness of that can help lead to a more balanced view. So can the question: Were these practices employed by the Apostles (in particular) and within the apostolic church (in general)?

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[psalms 91]

But to be fair, you ARE insisting here that your experiences have decided the matter, not the Holy Spirit.

I was led into those experiences by the Holy Spirit and ministered by Him so no not my experience but His