Purgatory

[popsthebuilder]

So do you think the Holy Spirit comes and goes when you sin and when you don't? That's not how it works. Christ paid for all our sins. We are forgiven. We are Holy because of Christ's death on the cross and by grace through faith we trust in that forgiveness. The Holy Spirit lives in us as we are believers. Believe that you are a saint because of Christ. You still sin, yes, but you are forgiven. Believe it.

I believe I am lead by the Spirit but that I do not "have the Spirit". I am free to sin knowingly. If I was filled with the Spirit then I wouldn't be being made Holy; I would be Holy. I will never exclaim such in this physical body; even if it was to happen by the grace of GOD.

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[Andrew]

Just seems descriptive of "purgatory" is all

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I agree and have argued it before but I was corrected over and over again that "Purgatory" is a Catholic term and is defined as an after death experience, so if I say that "i believe that we are purified and tried in fire here and now" because it sounds like purgatory, it isn't because I am using the term in the wrong context.

 

[Lamb]

I believe I am lead by the Spirit but that I do not "have the Spirit". I am free to sin knowingly. If I was filled with the Spirit then I wouldn't be being made Holy; I would be Holy. I will never exclaim such in this physical body; even if it was to happen by the grace of GOD.

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Titus 3:6 This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,


Acts 2:38 and you will receive God’s gift, the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

Are you sure you don't have the Holy Spirit in you?

 

[psalms 91]

So do you think the Holy Spirit comes and goes when you sin and when you don't? That's not how it works. Christ paid for all our sins. We are forgiven. We are Holy because of Christ's death on the cross and by grace through faith we trust in that forgiveness. The Holy Spirit lives in us as we are believers. Believe that you are a saint because of Christ. You still sin, yes, but you are forgiven. Believe it.

I am forgiven if I repent read 1 John 1:9-10

 

[Albion]

Just seems descriptive of "purgatory" is all

It isn't.

DH is correct that Purgatory has a specific meaning which is that it is a particular place or state of being in the afterlife. All the verses that Catholics present as supposed proof of the reality of Purgatory refer to something else; but be that as it may, Purgatory is a particular destination in the afterlife to which almost every person who is saved in this life will go (according to traditional Catholic teaching).

 

[popsthebuilder]

It isn't.

DH is correct that Purgatory has a specific meaning which is that it is a particular place or state of being in the afterlife. All the verses that Catholics present as supposed proof of the reality of Purgatory refer to something else; but be that as it may, Purgatory is a particular destination in the afterlife to which almost every person who is saved in this life will go (according to traditional Catholic teaching).

Oh, okay. I don't really see that as a salvific issue, but one would think the soul goes somewhere while waiting to be resurrected. Seems to me that it could all be a a reference to this time or life in a way too though.

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[psalms 91]

Oh, okay. I don't really see that as a salvific issue, but one would think the soul goes somewhere while waiting to be resurrected. Seems to me that it could all be a a reference to this time or life in a way too though.

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In Revelation where are the souls of those killed for their faith? Seems to me that is clear evidence of them being in heaven

 

[popsthebuilder]

In Revelation where are the souls of those killed for their faith? Seems to me that is clear evidence of them being in heaven

But it seems that all will be brought up and judged...I don't know that souls will be pulled down from heaven to be judged; that just doesn't sound right. If all will be raised up then it doesn't follow that any will be pulled down or that only some will be judged...to me.....I'm not bent one way or the other on it really, and am open to scripture. I'll check into your reference and thank you for it. You....don't think it is a salvific issue....do you...?



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[psalms 91]

No I dont

 

[Lamb]

I am forgiven if I repent read 1 John 1:9-10

The forgiveness granted to you comes from the cross. Always. Your repentance does not earn forgiveness. Your repentance looks to faith toward the Savior who died for your sins.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sorry MC I see those scriptures differently. Once dead it is to late, it is for the living that Christ died and those already in hell will be resurrected at the Great white throne judgement but not until and then only to determine their part in the lake of fire

How you see the scriptures that I quoted is not the issue. How Catholic Christians see them is what matters when the question is "what scriptures do Catholics use to teach/support their doctrine of purgatory?"

 

[Andrew]

How you see the scriptures that I quoted is not the issue. How Catholic Christians see them is what matters when the question is "what scriptures do Catholics use to teach/support their doctrine of purgatory?"

How do you respond to post 24?
Wouldn't you rather defend your argument by pointing to Peter the "rock" and his successors allowance to perpetuate such claims as "purgatory" other than using your personal and rather weak scriptural support?
If you are an RCC supporter I would expect you to defend the RCC by that claim with Mathew 18:18

 

[Albion]

Oh, okay. I don't really see that as a salvific issue, but one would think the soul goes somewhere while waiting to be resurrected. Seems to me that it could all be a a reference to this time or life in a way too though.

That wouldn't be Purgatory, though, since Purgatory is a place of punishment and suffering with a lot of additional specifics that are built into the Catholic Church's explanation for why that will be the case.

 

[Albion]

How you see the scriptures that I quoted is not the issue. How Catholic Christians see them is what matters when the question is "what scriptures do Catholics use to teach/support their doctrine of purgatory?"

But we already know that Catholics are supposed to buy into this definition--or whatever it is this week. That is testimony to the loyalty most Catholics have to their church, whether it is correct or off course.

If the question is asked about Scriptural proof for Purgatory, though, you might as well just say what you did here--"We don't nee no stinking evidence. We just believe." LOL

 

[MennoSota]

"When the coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory doth spring."
Purgatory...another mythological invention of Rome.

 

[MoreCoffee]

MC wouldn't it better suit your argument if you just state the RCCs allowance to advocate purgatory and other non scriptural claims

Catholic Christians teach and are convinced that it is scriptural teaching so why would any Catholic be interested in pretending that purgatory is not scriptural?

by "what you hold true on Earth will be held true in Heaven"?
The Popes claim that due to succession of Peter they can basically create a belief that God will uphold in Heaven, this has always been my understanding of why the Papacy enforces dogma as truth.
The scriptures you posted imply that God will purify us... I believe that it was the suffering and death of Christ and his descending into Hell, resurrection and ascension that we are entered into Gods grace and Mercy blameless of sin.

 

[Andrew]

Catholic Christians teach and are convinced that it is scriptural teaching so why would any Catholic be interested in pretending that purgatory is not scriptural?

I see purgatory as not so scriptural but more to do with the Pope being infallible, not everything that the Catholic church teaches is backed up by scripture, one being a line of succession from Peter. The church did also sell indulgence at one time and for a while people believed it, but we both know it wasn't scriptural.

 

[Albion]

How would it be about the Pope being (allegedly) infallible?

 

[Andrew]

How would it be about the Pope being (allegedly) infallible?

MC might as well be arguing that is my point. I don't believe the Pope is infallible but according to Catholic doctrine, to them, he is. I first need biblical scripture that the Pope is infallible to believe in Purgatory...
Instead of pointing to scripture what doesn't MC point to his infallible Pope is my question.

 

[Albion]

But the doctrine/teaching in the RCC about Purgatory was not proclaimed by a Pope, infallible or not. It was the work of a Medieval church council.