Election

[Albion]

MC can reply, but if the RC Saints did not have an EXCESS of Merit, then the RCC would have had nothing to sell for its Reformation-generating Indulgences...

Arsenios

The so-called Treasury of Merit was invented to explain how prayers and indulgences that supposedly shorten the time a soul must remain in Purgatory can alter such a person's time, considering that the soul was sentenced to Purgatory for a certain time and for specific reasons. The theory is that there is a lot of excess goodness or merit somewhere, since the truly great saints must have earned a surplus of merit in life--more than the minimum needed to earn Heaven.

The idea then was that this excess merit could be attached by the Church and doled out to the souls in Purgatory via the prayers, pilgrimages, or whatever else any church member might qualify for, such as through an indulgence, which he could then assign to someone in Purgatory. Prior to the Reformation, indulgences were commonly sold, although the Church would say that it was given to the recipient by the priest in response to the recipient's act of charity (contribution of money). I have seen one of the certificates that was given to a recipient. It looks like a bank note and indicates the amount of time remitted in Purgatory.

 

[Arsenios]

Here is my local online source...

http://stillcatholic.com/CATHPurg.htm

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The so-called Treasury of Merit was invented to explain how prayers and indulgences that supposedly shorten the time a soul must remain in Purgatory can alter such a person's time, considering that the soul was sentenced to Purgatory for a certain time and for specific reasons. The theory is that there is a lot of excess goodness or merit somewhere, since the truly great saints must have earned a surplus of merit in life--more than the minimum needed to earn Heaven.

The idea then was that this excess merit could be attached by the Church and doled out to the souls in Purgatory via the prayers, pilgrimages, or whatever else any church member might qualify for, such as through an indulgence, which he could then assign to someone in Purgatory. Prior to the Reformation, indulgences were commonly sold, although the Church would say that it was given to the recipient by the priest in response to the recipient's act of charity (contribution of money). I have seen one of the certificates that was given to a recipient. It looks like a bank note and indicates the amount of time remitted in Purgatory.

MC says it is the Merit of Christ (as doled out through the Saints, I think) that is granted by the Church to those who engage in acts of charity for the sake of departed loved ones...

This is not an Orthodox doctrine, but we do have a parallel doctrine that might be showing the origins of this one...
Because we DO pray for the Dead: Memory Eternal! And our prayers for them are commanded by Christ... A part of "all that I commanded you"... And those prayers are not without effect... They can and do raise a person in the after-life... At whatever stage that person may be caught in the intermediate judgement prior to the Last and Dread Judgement...

Ascribing motives to RCC Doctrines with which one disagrees is counterproductive...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Here is my local online source...

http://stillcatholic.com/CATHPurg.htm

Arsenios

Why does your source have such horrible colour combinations on the web page? pink headings on light blue background with black text for the meat beneath the headings! It's shockingly bad for reading.

Your source says

What happens when I die?

At the moment of death, our soul and body will go their own way. Now it is time for our personal judgment. We will immediately be informed as to whether we will spend eternity in heaven or hell.

If Gabby Gossip dies one hour from now and is not in a state of grace, then Gabby Gossip will be in hell in exactly one hour.

On the other hand, if Persevering Pamela dies in a state of grace, with no mortal sin on her soul, she will spend eternity in paradise. Going straight to heaven is possible, but as Pamela correctly expects that she will first have to stop through purgatory to have her soul cleansed of any remaining attachment to earthly desires. Purgatory is no party.​

What is purgatory?

It is the final purification or purging of our souls before we enter heaven. Purgatory is temporary. It will pass away on the last day of Earth.​

Is purgatory a place?

Purgatory only refers to the state of being purged of our sinfulness. Whether or not there is a physical place where this occurs, we will not know until we arrive.

Since it is difficult for us earthlings to envision supernatural things, some of us may tend to envision purgatory as a place, which is fine, as long we realize that the Church has not yet defined whether or not it involves a place.​

Is purgatory a second chance for us?

No. There are no second chances after we die. Purgatory is only for the elect (the heaven-bound folks who were already forgiven for their sins upon dying). Forgiveness is available only while we are on Earth. It is available to us thanks to Christ's death and resurrection.​

​

But why go to a source like that? It's just a web page that somebody put up as their personal explanation of purgatory. It may be a good explanation but why use it when the Catholic Church has online copies of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Compendium of the CCC and also the USCCB has an online copy of U.S. Catholic Catechism for Adults all which are official and intended as reliable sources for Catholic teaching. Is it so difficult to find these things? I can see why it would be difficult. The last mentioned is at http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...sm/us-catholic-catechism-for-adults/index.cfm and the CCC is at http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...sm/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/index.cfm and the Compendium is at http://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=509]RichWh1[/MENTION], Eklektoi and Ekkesia are different words just like Accept and Except are different words in English and even though some English speakers confuse Except and Accept the two words are not closely related and have different meanings. The same can be said of "bought" and "brought" which are also confused by some English speakers but the words have different meanings. Same with "too" and "two". Eklektoi means "chosen" and Ekklesia means "called out". The former is translated as "chosen" and is related to "elect" the latter is translated as "church".

 

[RichWh1]

[MENTION=509]RichWh1[/MENTION], Eklektoi and Ekkesia are different words just like Accept and Except are different words in English and even though some English speakers confuse Except and Accept the two words are not closely related and have different meanings. The same can be said of "bought" and "brought" which are also confused by some English speakers but the words have different meanings. Same with "too" and "two". Eklektoi means "chosen" and Ekklesia means "called out". The former is translated as "chosen" and is related to "elect" the latter is translated as "church".

Different words, yes. Same root meaning Your understanding of the Greek language shows. You have no idea what you are saying.
It’s all hype and no content.

Except and accept have nothing to do with root words in Greek!
You used 2 different words with 2 different roots



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[popsthebuilder]

That's a little excessive.
[MENTION=60]MoreCoffee[/MENTION]; do the elect comprise the church or body of Christ?

If the mass of the church isn't the elect then are they damned?

It seems like the meanings are close to the same unless you consider the elect separate from the church. Do the elect guide the church?



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[MoreCoffee]

That's a little excessive.
[MENTION=60]MoreCoffee[/MENTION]; do the elect comprise the church or body of Christ?

If the mass of the church isn't the elect then are they damned?

It seems like the meanings are close to the same unless you consider the elect separate from the church. Do the elect guide the church?

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Partly, the church has elect in it and it has others in it. The parable of the wheat and the tares as well as the parable of the fish and the net tell the story.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Different words, yes. Same root meaning Your understanding of the Greek language shows. You have no idea what you are saying.
It’s all hype and no content.

Except and accept have nothing to do with root words in Greek!
You used 2 different words with 2 different roots

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Here's a lexical definition of ekklesia
ek-klay-see'-ah

Noun Feminine
Definition

a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
the assembly of the Israelites
any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
in a Christian sense

an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven​

(source)

And here's a lexical definition of eklectos
ek-lek-tos'
Adjective
Definition

picked out, chosen

chosen by God,

to obtain salvation through Christ​

Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians​

(source)

 

[RichWh1]

Like I said MC you know nothing of Koine Greek and your posts prove it.

What was the 'accept' vs ' except' supposed to prove?

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[RichWh1]

Ekklektos is derived from 2 Greek words ek- out and kaleo- call
Ekklesia is from the same root words!! Fact!!


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[MoreCoffee]

Like I said MC you know nothing of Koine Greek and your posts prove it.

What was the 'accept' vs ' except' supposed to prove?

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I know that you said it but that does not make it so. Besides no one need rely on my knowledge the words and their definitions are widely available on the internet. In my previous post I gave the source for the definitions as used in the NASB lexicon. You can check any printed lexicon that you have. The definition will be the same. You can check the etymology too if you need to. The facts are the facts. If they disagree with what you've written then maybe what you wrote is incorrect.

ἐκκλεισῐ́ᾱ

Ancient Greek
Alternative forms

ἐκκλεισῐ́ᾱ (ekkleisíā) – Thessalian

Etymology

From ἔκκλητος (ékklētos, “summoned”) +‎ -ῐ́ᾱ (-íā, abstract noun suffix), from ἐκκαλέω (ekkaléō, “to call forth, summon”), from ἐκ (ek) + καλέω (kaléō). The τ (t) changes to σ (s) by palatalization and assibilation, triggered by the following ι (i).
Pronunciation

IPA: /ek.klɛː.sí.aː/ → /ek.kliˈsi.a/ → /e.kliˈsi.a/​

Noun

ἐκκλησῐ́ᾱ • (ekklēsíā) f (genitive ἐκκλησῐ́ᾱς); first declension

assembly
congregation, church​

(source)

ἐκλεκτός

Ancient Greek
Etymology

From ἐκλέγω (eklégō, “to pick out”) +‎ -τος (-tos).​

Pronunciation

IPA(key): /e.klek.tós/ → /e.klekˈtos/ → /e.klekˈtos/​

Verb

ἐκλεκτός • (eklektós) m (feminine ἐκλεκτή, neuter ἐκλεκτόν); first/second declension

picked out, select
(in New Testament and ecclesiastical writings, in the plural) the elect​

(source)

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ekklektos

ekklektos is not a word in Greek. Eklektos is. It is derived from ἐκλέγω (eklégō, “to pick out”) +‎ -τος (-tos).

is derived from 2 Greek words ek- out and kaleo- call
Ekklesia is from the same root words!! Fact!!


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[RichWh1]

λέγω is say not pick so εκλεγώ would be to speak out.


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[MoreCoffee]

λέγω is say not pick so εκλεγώ would be to speak out.


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Well have fun with those ideas. God willing they will be amusing to somebody.

 

[RichWh1]

So the Church is not the Elect Lady John writ to I guess.


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[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=509]RichWh1[/MENTION], here is the etymology for ἐκλέγω (eklego)
ἐκλέγω

Ancient Greek
Etymology

From ἐκ- (ek-, “out”) +‎ λέγω (légō, “to choose”)​

Pronunciation

IPA: /e.klé.ɡɔː/ → /eˈkle.ɣo/ → /eˈkle.ɣo/

Verb

ἐκλέγω • (eklégō)

1. to pick or single out, to choose

(in middle voice) to pull out one's gray hairs​

2. to levy taxes or tribute​

(SOURCE)

 

[RichWh1]

So the Church is not the Elect Lady John wrote to I guess.


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[MoreCoffee]

So the Church is not the Elect Lady John writ to I guess.

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You are mistaken about ἐκλέγω and also about λέγω. But with λέγω you have one of its meanings right.

λέγω

Ancient Greek
Etymology

From Proto-Indo-European *leǵ-. Cognates include Latin legō and Albanian mbledh.​

Pronunciation
IPA: /lé.ɡɔː/ → /ˈle.ɣo/ → /ˈle.ɣo/

Verb
λέγω • (légō)

1. I put in order, arrange, gather
2. I choose, count, reckon
​

Usage notes

All tenses besides present and imperfect are generally limited to Homer and other earlier writers (although they remain in compound words such as ἀπολέγω (apolégō), ἐκλέγω (eklégō), and καταλέγω (katalégō)).

​

Verb
λέγω • (légō)

1. I say, speak, converse, tell a story
2. (middle passive) I mean
​

Usage notes

For the meaning "say, speak", forms derived from other roots are more commonly used (suppletion): the future ἐρέω (eréō), future passive ῥηθήσομαι (rhēthḗsomai), and perfect εἴρηκᾰ (eírēka) from εἴρω (eírō), as well as the aorist εἶπον (eîpon).
​

(source)

 

[RichWh1]

So the Church is not the Elect Lady John wrote to I guess.
True or false?



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