Justification - Part 2

[Josiah]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] writes "See posts 141 and 142. What is posted there (the Lutheran position on justification) is the fundamental disagreement" but MennoSota is not a Lutheran and he did not write posts 141 & 142 MennoSota's disgreement is what he stated it was. Not what Josiah amended it to be in the above quote from Josiah's post. MennoSota is capable of speaking on his own behalf.

The RCC condemned the Lutheran position (see posts 141 and 142), not MennoSota. So the "fundamental disagree" on this issue of Justification is not MennoSota's diversions into some uber-Calvinists views (nor your diversions into things no one disputes) but the issue of the thread: JUSTIFICATION.

If you wish to represent the Catholic perspective, it would be helpful if you would view Posts 141 and 142, copy/paste them, and then CLEARLY indicate (perhaps by embolding or putting into color) the exact statements that are specifically, particularly, clearly "HERESY".... necessitating anathemas, condemnations, and the division of Western Christianity. AGAIN, don't CHANGE the disagreement to: "Yeah, but more should be said - you know, what Lutherans do" but rather "THIS is horrible heresy!" All I see is diversions into issues that are NOT the "fundamental disagreement" on this topic.

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION], the post you quoted was a reply to MennoSota and had nothing whatever to do with Lutherans. It was post #145 which I am including below

You put the cart before the horse. The Bible tells us that those whom the Father has chosen will hear his voice. The rest are not his sheep. They do not hear Him.
MC, we have a fundamental disagreement. You believe that

We do have a fundamental disagreement but it is not the one you mention. That isn't even a matter of dispute. Dead people hear nothing. The fundamental disagreement is that you think that you know what I think when you have not really managed to deal with what I've written time and time again. Lazarus was dead. Jesus commanded "Lazarus come forth" and Lazarus did come forth. The command was in and of itself sufficient to wake the dead man Lazarus. The command had that power because it was God's command. Pay careful attention Lazarus was dead and then he was obeying a command from Jesus who is God incarnate. The command empowered Lazarus and gave him life. It was the will of God that Lazarus should rise and come forth and he did. The same is true of Adam. God created him from the dust of the ground. He was not a living soul. He was a body formed by God. Then God breathed the Spirit of life into Adam's nostrils and Adam lived. He became a living soul. God acted and Adam responded. That is the paradigm.

dead people can hear, repent and believe by their own free-will. I say that the dead can do nothing until they are given life by their creator. Thus, we can share the message of reconciliation to the spiritually dead all we want, but only those whom God makes alive will respond.
Therefore, your imagination that people will first repent and believe before God acts is...just your imagination. It's not biblically accurate. It places the emphasis on dead men to make their own choices and pick God off from the shelf at the "Which god will you choose" store. It is all man-centered and thus belittles God and His Sovereignty.
God must make a person alive in Christ. (His choice, not ours) before a person can repent or believe. God will forgive His children. That is His promise.
You, MC, imagine that the spiritually dead can function and choose. A spiritually dead person cannot choose life. Your premise is false and thus God will not be obligated to fulfill your false premise.

​

You wrote "The RCC condemned the Lutheran position (see posts 141 and 142), not MennoSota." You are trying to inject your posts into a discussion about MennoSota's views. You ought not do that.

 

[MennoSota]

The faithful are called to do good works as the passage says (Ephesians 2:10) so they are not called to do "their works" but rather good works that God has prepared for them to do as their way of life. Good works are God's works. Together with believing in the Son of God - which the Lord himself said was the work of God - Christians do good in this world for the hope that is in them regarding the resurrection and eternal life and motivated by God's love for them and their love for him.

Re-read the verse.

we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Notice the good works are preordained. Why? Go back to Ephesians 1:4...we were chosen from before the foundation of the world.
Christians do good works because God ordained it!
It's all God, MC, no matter how much you hate it.

 

[Arsenios]

Who gave the Levitical Mosaic Law to the Pharisee to obey?

Who gave them the air to breathe?

The defense rests!

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Who gave the Levitical Mosaic Law to the Pharisee to obey?



The defense rests!

Arsenios

Great. The prosecution wins! You are guilty of false teaching.

 

[Andrew]

I posted this in another thread but it could make some waves here to as well.
---------------------

Gal 3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Act 17:30 - 31
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

These two verses to me tell me that once we receive the faith and repent and have become aware through conviction and study of the law/commandments that In Jesus Christ who fulfills them and by the grace of God through faith -we are no longer ignorant to the law and stand convicted by them in fulfilment of them.
Before we considered our works just before the Lord and through the rebirth we are saved by Jesus works in fulfillment of the law in which we are to walk in as Gods workmanship.
God bless

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Notice the good works are preordained. Why? Go back to Ephesians 1:4...we were chosen from before the foundation of the world.
Christians do good works because God ordained it!
It's all God, MC, no matter how much you hate it.

Are you making the suggestion that the specific works we do are "preordained", or that God has ordained us to walk in them (good works) generally)?
Also, the word "preordained" does not show up in any version that I have referenced. Where do we find this?

 

[MennoSota]

Are you making the suggestion that the specific works we do are "preordained", or that God has ordained us to walk in them (good works) generally)?
Also, the word "preordained" does not show up in any version that I have referenced. Where do we find this?

What does this mean?

"we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
What did God "before ordain" if it is not "good works"? How can we be ordained to walk in these good works if the good works are not, themselves, "before ordained"?
Whether we like it or not, nothing happens by chance.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

What does this mean?

I think the question was specific enough. What don't you understand?

"we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
What did God "before ordain" if it is not "good works"? How can we be ordained to walk in these good works if the good works are not, themselves, "before ordained"?
Whether we like it or not, nothing happens by chance.

Yeah, I got that, but it wasn't my question.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What does this mean?

"we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
What did God "before ordain" if it is not "good works"? How can we be ordained to walk in these good works if the good works are not, themselves, "before ordained"?
Whether we like it or not, nothing happens by chance.

It means this "7 In showing us such kindness, in Christ Jesus, God willed to reveal, and unfold in the coming ages, the extraordinary riches of his grace. 8 By the grace of God, you have been saved, through faith. This has not come from you: it is God’s gift. 9 This was not the result of your works, so you are not to feel proud. 10 What we are, is God’s work. He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that should be our way of life. "

 

[MennoSota]

I think the question was specific enough. What don't you understand?



Yeah, I got that, but it wasn't my question.

I answered the question with a question. I'm not sure what or if you have a point.

 

[MennoSota]

It means this "7 In showing us such kindness, in Christ Jesus, God willed to reveal, and unfold in the coming ages, the extraordinary riches of his grace. 8 By the grace of God, you have been saved, through faith. This has not come from you: it is God’s gift. 9 This was not the result of your works, so you are not to feel proud. 10 What we are, is God’s work. He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that should be our way of life. "

Your translation says the same thing.

He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared

God pre-ordained our good works.
What are you attempting to sneak around on this issue, MC? The passage is very clear, but it seems you don't like it that God ordained our good works ahead of time.
It's all God, MC. Nothing of you.
100% God...0% you.
God gets all the glory. You get no glory.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Your translation says the same thing.

God pre-ordained our good works.
What are you attempting to sneak around on this issue, MC? The passage is very clear, but it seems you don't like it that God ordained our good works ahead of time.
It's all God, MC. Nothing of you.
100% God...0% you.
God gets all the glory. You get no glory.

The point being that the good works are God's works and he gives them to the faithful for them to do.

 

[MennoSota]

The point being that the good works are God's works and he gives them to the faithful for them to do.

And we do them because God ordained them to be.
All God. We are merely the vessel. Read Romans 9.

 

[MoreCoffee]

And we do them because God ordained them to be.
All God. We are merely the vessel. Read Romans 9.

A mechanism in the hands of God?

 

[MennoSota]

A mechanism in the hands of God?

Romans 9:11-24
[11]But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes;
[12]he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.”
[13]In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.”
[14]Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!
[15]For God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, *** and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”
[16]So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
[17]For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”
[18]So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
[19]Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”
[20]No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”
[21]When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
[22]In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
[23]He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.
[24]And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

 

[MoreCoffee]

To get a proper understanding of the verses quoted by [MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION] it is well to read the context in which they occur.

Romans 9:1 I tell you, sincerely, in Christ, and my conscience assures me in the Holy Spirit, that I am not lying: 2 I have great sadness and constant anguish for the Jews. 3 I would even desire, that, I myself, suffer the curse of being cut off from Christ, instead of my brethren: I mean, my own people, my kin. 4 They are Israelites, whom God adopted, and on them, rests his glory. Theirs, are the covenants, the law, the worship and the promises of God. 5 They are descendants of the patriarchs, and from their race, Christ was born, he, who, as God, is above all distinctions. Blessed be He forever and ever: Amen! 6 We cannot say that the promise of God has failed. For not all Israelites belong to Israel. 7 And not because they are of the race of Abraham, are they all his children, for it was said to him: The children of Isaac will be called your descendants. 8 This means, that the children of God are not identified with the race of Abraham, but only with the children born to him, because of the promise of God. 9 To such a promise, this text refers:

I shall return about this time, and Sarah will have a son.​

10 And, listen: Rebecca, the wife of our father Isaac, became pregnant, 11 and, before the twins were born, or had done anything, right or wrong, in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, 12 not through their merits, but by God's call, she was told: The elder will serve the younger, 13 as the Scripture says:

I loved Jacob and hated Esau.​

​

Calling and deliverance are in the hands of God yet the people called are called to good works and they must perform them because God does not perform them for them.

 

[Arsenios]

What does this mean?

"we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
What did God "before ordain" if it is not "good works"? How can we be ordained to walk in these good works if the good works are not, themselves, "before ordained"?
Whether we like it or not, nothing happens by chance.

Could you perhaps give us an example?

I poured a little milk in a small bowl for Tom Kitty this morning and petted him - Is this a good work or an evil one?
Was I fore-ordained to give Tom milk this morning?

OR...

I prayed for a man who died 6 months ago who was my friend, and I just found out... Is this what you mean?

OR...

I may help a little old lady across the street today, is this what you mean?

As written, the text simply tells us we who are fore-ordained are to walk in good works...

I took that to mean "in good works as they arise in our walk in Christ..."

If I raise someone from the dead this afternoon, that would be included...
As would helping li'l ol' Millie cross the busy street...
As would giving cpr to the OD'd addict...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

And we do them because God ordained them to be.
All God.
We are merely the vessel.

Like Ananias giving Saul the Holy Spirit?

I totally agree!

God gave Saul the Holy Spirit through the hands of His Servant Ananias baptizing him...

Read Romans 9.

Read the Bible!

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

To get a proper understanding of the verses quoted by [MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION] it is well to read the context in which they occur.

Romans 9:1 I tell you, sincerely, in Christ, and my conscience assures me in the Holy Spirit, that I am not lying: 2 I have great sadness and constant anguish for the Jews. 3 I would even desire, that, I myself, suffer the curse of being cut off from Christ, instead of my brethren: I mean, my own people, my kin. 4 They are Israelites, whom God adopted, and on them, rests his glory. Theirs, are the covenants, the law, the worship and the promises of God. 5 They are descendants of the patriarchs, and from their race, Christ was born, he, who, as God, is above all distinctions. Blessed be He forever and ever: Amen! 6 We cannot say that the promise of God has failed. For not all Israelites belong to Israel. 7 And not because they are of the race of Abraham, are they all his children, for it was said to him: The children of Isaac will be called your descendants. 8 This means, that the children of God are not identified with the race of Abraham, but only with the children born to him, because of the promise of God. 9 To such a promise, this text refers:

I shall return about this time, and Sarah will have a son.​

10 And, listen: Rebecca, the wife of our father Isaac, became pregnant, 11 and, before the twins were born, or had done anything, right or wrong, in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, 12 not through their merits, but by God's call, she was told: The elder will serve the younger, 13 as the Scripture says:

I loved Jacob and hated Esau.​

​

Calling and deliverance are in the hands of God yet the people called are called to good works and they must perform them because God does not perform them for them.

And the context in which they occur tells us that we are like pottery made by the potter for whatever the potter desires.
Romans 9 is straightforward, but people who desperately want control will always look for a way to explain Romans 9 away so that they can declare themselves to be in control.
But, the context reveals God's absolute Sovereignty and man's utter dependence.
MC has spent two threads attempting to glorify his position to that of equal with God. He declares "100% God and 100% man as the means of justification.
I declare 100% God and 0% man as the means of justification.