Window shopping one's religion.

[MoreCoffee]

Is it better to be a window shopper rather than a buyer in religion?

What I mean is this. Are you better off just attending a church or meeting or group but not buying into it by becoming a member and committing to its mission and programs? Or are you best off by joining and committing and working in and with your church's mission and programs? Is there scripture to guide a person facing that question? I was wondering because I meet many people and a good number of them believe in God and say they want to faithfully serve him yet refuse church membership because they've been burned (they say). Is that common in your experience and what does it mean for Christianity?

 

[ValleyGal]

Personally, I don't believe in shopping around, but I also think membership is only for political purposes. I don't care if I have a right to vote; I do care that I immerse in service in some capacity. Membership is not necessary for commitment and service - nor is it necessary to salvation. Other people may care about politics and voting, maybe even how they serve can be affected by membership. They are welcome to become members. At this point, I do not feel it is necessary.

 

[Andrew]

Is it better to be a window shopper rather than a buyer in religion?

What I mean is this. Are you better off just attending a church or meeting or group but not buying into it by becoming a member and committing to its mission and programs? Or are you best off by joining and committing and working in and with your church's mission and programs? Is there scripture to guide a person facing that question? I was wondering because I meet many people and a good number of them believe in God and say they want to faithfully serve him yet refuse church membership because they've been burned (they say). Is that common in your experience and what does it mean for Christianity?

I can't afford to pay tithes, I did ushering but it's impossible now with my job, I actually haven't been going for over a month.
I haven't been to confession since God knows how long, but non of the Catholics in my family take church seriously anymore since all the kids are grown up. Actually I'm a little disappointed, my parents made it such a huge deal when I was little and now they just won't go unless it's a funeral. My grandma being the exception.
The Pentecostal experience is like I said, tough because of my hours, and they say "you cant just be a part time pentecostal" but I "just cant make it to church 4 times a week either".
I haven't been to any other churches, I imagine a lutheran church to have a picture of Luther somewhere and everyone just sits on their hands and complains about Catholics JUST KIDDING. I really have no clue what other churches are like besides Catholic and Pentecostal, I went to a baptist once which was like a Catholic Pentecostal hybrid from what I remember.
I also refuse to knock on peoples doors to try and convert already Christians to another church. I love the freedom of the Pentecostal church but if you become a regular then they expect more out of you, I just want to go and not have to worry about being looked down as a part timer.
My grandfather said I was going to be a priest because his brothers were priest and I am the last boy of the Hoffmann bloodline, so I assume he didnt want me to have kids or a wife and just commit to the church. Heck I might one day lol I do have a calling but I haven't found out where or what. I need to go church shopping, I really want to go with my parents to our old catholic church just once like old times, maybe I could join the band.
I dont need a membership to Gods church, thats silly, come ye come all.


Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[MennoSota]

Well, I can't find any church membership policy in the Bible.
I do find the writer to the Hebrews telling us to not neglect meeting together with our brothers and sisters.
Jesus gives the parable of the king who gave various amounts of money to his servants while he was away. The ones who invested that money to produce more were commended. As Christians are we using our gifts to honor God? That seems more concerning to me than whether a person holds a membership in a local church.

Is it better to be a window shopper rather than a buyer in religion?

What I mean is this. Are you better off just attending a church or meeting or group but not buying into it by becoming a member and committing to its mission and programs? Or are you best off by joining and committing and working in and with your church's mission and programs? Is there scripture to guide a person facing that question? I was wondering because I meet many people and a good number of them believe in God and say they want to faithfully serve him yet refuse church membership because they've been burned (they say). Is that common in your experience and what does it mean for Christianity?

 

[Lamb]

Isn't membership also to try to work out a church budget through offering estimates?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Isn't membership also to try to work out a church budget through offering estimates?

A Catholic becomes a member of a Catholic parish by attending mass at one of the parish's church buildings - my parish has three church buildings but one is in an isolated location and hasn't been used for masses for several years, the other two are in weekly and daily use. IN my country Catholic parishes do not have membership 'papers' it is enough to be a Catholic and start attending. It is also polite to let the church's office know who you are and give contact details, but that is not a requirement.

 

[NewCreation435]

I've been attending the church i go to now for about six or seven weeks. the only benefit of joining that I can see is that some service opportunities are only open to members such as teaching a Sunday School class. there are plenty of opportunities to give and you don't have to be a member to give an offering. I'm in no hurry to join at this point. Though I did meet briefly with the pastor last week. After the service he goes to the hospitality room and invites people who are visiting to come by and say hello to him

 

[tango]

Is it better to be a window shopper rather than a buyer in religion?

What I mean is this. Are you better off just attending a church or meeting or group but not buying into it by becoming a member and committing to its mission and programs? Or are you best off by joining and committing and working in and with your church's mission and programs? Is there scripture to guide a person facing that question? I was wondering because I meet many people and a good number of them believe in God and say they want to faithfully serve him yet refuse church membership because they've been burned (they say). Is that common in your experience and what does it mean for Christianity?

I'm not sure that becoming a member really makes the difference between "window shopping" and "buying". One can regularly attend a church and partake in most of what it does without ever becoming a member. Membership is often required before someone can serve in particular capacities (for examply my church requires, not unreasonably in my opinion, that an elder be a member) but much of what can be done within a church doesn't require membership. I helped on the sound desk for months before becoming a member.

In some instances membership can carry consequences that might be unexpected. A friend of mine was involved in dealing with the UK bodies that handle charitable organisations and apparently there's some twist in the rules that mean church members could, under some circumstances, be deemed to be some form of trustee of the body in which they hold a membership and could potentially be held liable for mismanagement. I forget the details and from what I gather it's highly unlikely that it would ever result in an actual financial liability, but it's interesting that there could be an unexpected issue there.

 

[Lamb]

Do some pastors only hold funerals at their church for their members and members' family?

 

[Josiah]

Is it better to be a window shopper rather than a buyer in religion? What I mean is this. Are you better off just attending a church or meeting or group but not buying into it by becoming a member and committing to its mission and programs? Or are you best off by joining and committing and working in and with your church's mission and programs? Is there scripture to guide a person facing that question? I was wondering because I meet many people and a good number of them believe in God and say they want to faithfully serve him yet refuse church membership because they've been burned (they say). Is that common in your experience and what does it mean for Christianity?

You raise an ENORMOUS issue among Catholics.....


Here is how our Deacon (so often) framed this: One is either Catholic or not. A Catholic docilicly accepts whatever The Catholic Church itself exclusively and currently teaches and counsels (officially, AT LEAST) because The Catholic Church (as the Divine Authority, the Voice of God) does. If they do that, they are Catholic. If they don't, they aren't. See CCC 87. Simple.



As our Catholic Deacon so stressed, in the pews of RC parishes we find 3 groups of people:

CATHOLICS. They acknowledge and accept that the [Roman Catholic] Church is (in official matters) the Voice of God - infallible, authoritative. When IT speaks (exclusively, singularly, institutionally, officially, currently) God Himself therefore speaks. They do NOT ask "is it true?" They ask, "Do I accept?" A Catholic accepts what the Catholic Church says (officially anyway) because it does. It's simple. He admitted these are very rare, even among the religious.

CAFETERIA "Catholics" These are not Catholics at all, although they may attend Mass regularly and likely embrace much if not nearly all the teachings of the specific, singular [Roman Catholic] church. But they accept some of what they hear because THEY have concluded these things are good or right, NOT because the Church says so. Thus, they are not Catholic. They TEND to accept things - until they conclude such is weak or wrong when they are apt to simply lay them aside (without malice). They "pick and choose" from the buffet of hundreds of things the Church tells them. They regard the [Roman Catholic] Church as potentially errant (in matters of formal doctrine), they look to some authority other than the [Roman Catholic] Church, they appoint self as the arbiter. He stated that most in the pews fall into this group. They are not Catholics, and if they would be honest, they'd admit that.

Protestants HIDING in the RCC. Similar to above, but they work in the opposite direction: Cafeteria Catholic tend to accept until shown lacking whereas Protestants Hiding tend to not accept until shown to be of merit. This third group - rapidly growing - may actually accept MORE teachings than Cafeteria Catholics but they've accepted them because they've ruled them as true - in a deliberate way that they know defies the authority and rule of the [Roman Catholic] Church. They treat the RCC as just another denomination - the one they choose because they agree most with it and consider it best. They'll leave if they change their minds on that. Our Deacon called this group, "the greatest threat to Catholicism since Gnosticism" and note that it is by far the fastest growing group in Catholicism. He complained too that much of Catholic education and apologetics these days actually "feeds" this dangerous heresy. He complained too that often RCIA classes aimed at Protestant converts tends to feed this.



Here is Catholicism. The exclusive, singular, individual, particular, RC Denomination speaks - and we accept and do. NOT because it's true or sound or right but because the RC Denomination is the Divine, all-powerful AUTHORITY, the Vicar of God, the Mouth of God. It's all about power and submission. I recall a Catholic teacher speaking on some Catholic distinctive doctrine (I don't recall which) and I raised the issue of truth. The response I got was stern and very, very, very Catholic: "Josiah. If Jesus HIMSELF stood before you and told you something, would you ask Him if that was true? Of course not! So, how in the world can you even THINK to ask that of something the [Roman Catholic] Church tells you is true?" Ah. That teacher was Catholic. They are precious few of them.


When I realized I was not a Catholic ( In reality, I ebbed between a Cafeteria "Catholic" and a "Protestant Hiding in the Church"), I finally conclude that it was a matter of honestly, integrity, and character to not lie or knowingly deceive. I stopped labeling myself Catholic because I was LYING. To me, it was a matter of honesty.... truth..... integrity. According to the RCC, I'm among some 30 million Americans (the second largest religious group in the USA, nearly as many as the 2 largest Protestant communities in the nation combined) - Catholics who left that denomination (although certainly not all for the reason I did). MANY Catholics are REALLY struggling with this point.





To your issue:

There's a balance here.

On the one hand, I view the church as US - the 2,000 year old Body of Christ spread out over all the centuries and continents, consisting of ALL believers. I reject the radical individualism that has infected Christianity (especially in the West) and the radical denominationalism invented by the RCC. The church is US. So I TRY to listen to God and His Church rather than simply appointing me as the All-Smart, All-Authoritative One. I reject the rubric of "what makes sense to ME" as if I'm individually authoritative and smart, as if God only teaches and leads ME (I actually repudiated this idea in the RCC for it itself). I see this as a community/communion thing. Tradition matters to me. Councils matter to me. And uyes, the WORDS on the page of God's Scripture (rather than how I think God goofed and SHOULD have worded Scripture so that it would say what I do). "Humility is the foundation of all sound theology" Luther taught, and I agree. And I think we live in a community of sinners - where mutual forgiveness and ministry is essential. He who looks for a perfect church has a long search in front of him. Churches are like families.... they include crazy Aunt Zeldas, those who just aren't nice, and relatives you don't agree with.... and you'd give them your kidney.


On the other hand, it is wrong to just swallow error. A bit of a study of Jim Jones (and others) would show the immorality and irresponsibility of blindly following (especially where wrong is obvious). We see this among the Prophets in the Old Testament.... and of course with Jesus and the "establishment" of His day. The history of Christianity is filled with those who stood up to error - irritating the powerful errant Establishment who often dispatched irritants, sending them to their appointed afterlife a bit early smelling like smoke; the history of Christianity (and Israel before that) is the story of error and God raising up Reformers (I'm named for one of them, lol). We'd all be Jews (or pagans or Gnostics) if we didn't accept this "flip side".

There's a balance here. Personally, I lean heavy on the first - but I don't dismiss that later. I think our modern, individualistic, egotistical society errs too much on the later and largely dismisses the first.




My perspective....



- Josiah



.

 

[NewCreation435]

Do some pastors only hold funerals at their church for their members and members' family?

i would guess that would vary widely depending on the denomination and pastor. i've done quite a number of funerals having been a chaplain in a nursing home and it is very difficult to make a funeral personal when you really didn't know the person. i can remember one lady who i asked her to write a statement about her mother and she read it during the service. That really helped make it more personal because by the time i knew her she had severe dementia. most of the services i did were at the funeral home itself since most nursing home residents tend to lose contact with their church home

 

[Lamb]

i would guess that would vary widely depending on the denomination and pastor. i've done quite a number of funerals having been a chaplain in a nursing home and it is very difficult to make a funeral personal when you really didn't know the person. i can remember one lady who i asked her to write a statement about her mother and she read it during the service. That really helped make it more personal because by the time i knew her she had severe dementia. most of the services i did were at the funeral home itself since most nursing home residents tend to lose contact with their church home

I think pastors called to a specific church won't always do funerals outside of their membership (or their families) because they are called to the sheep of that flock and their time is filled caring for them (working on Sunday's sermon, bible studies, calling on the sick and homebound, etc).

 

[Albion]

Is it better to be a window shopper rather than a buyer in religion?

What I mean is this. Are you better off just attending a church or meeting or group but not buying into it by becoming a member and committing to its mission and programs? Or are you best off byjoining and committing and working in and with your church's mission and programs? Is there scripture to guide a person facing that question? I was wondering because I meet many people and a good number of them believe in God and say they want to faithfully serve him yet refuse church membership because they've been burned (they say). Is that common in your experience and what does it mean for Christianity?

I would say that, at the least, it is not uncommon. But as for a comparison of the two approaches, what argument can be made in favor of taking the first approach? I really cannot think of a good one.

 

[Albion]

A Catholic becomes a member of a Catholic parish by attending mass at one of the parish's church buildings - my parish has three church buildings but one is in an isolated location and hasn't been used for masses for several years, the other two are in weekly and daily use. IN my country Catholic parishes do not have membership 'papers' it is enough to be a Catholic and start attending. It is also polite to let the church's office know who you are and give contact details, but that is not a requirement.

Interesting. It isn't that way in the USA, although it is taken for granted that a Catholic can attend Mass and commune in any Catholic church/parish.

 

[Josiah]

A Catholic becomes a member of a Catholic parish by attending mass at one of the parish's church buildings - my parish has three church buildings but one is in an isolated location and hasn't been used for masses for several years, the other two are in weekly and daily use. IN my country Catholic parishes do not have membership 'papers' it is enough to be a Catholic and start attending. It is also polite to let the church's office know who you are and give contact details, but that is not a requirement.

I hate to disagree, but that is NOT my experience in the USA. To be regarded as "Catholic" one AT LEAST needed to be Baptized (and preferrably in a parish owned and operated by the RC Denomination). While such would be considered Catholic (big C) yes, there would be the expectation of regular involvement in a parish owned and operated by the Catholic denomination. But even then, it's not fully so. One would need to complete First Communion and Confirmation (receiving that Sacrament).

Our parish had an official Registry. One REGISTERED and one could remove their name. There were people who regularly attended who (altogether purposefully) never Registered - and thus were not "counted" and not really formally a part of the parish. When I left my parish, I had my name removed from the Registry. But eventually I would have been anyway; in TIME, if a parish looses touch with a member and can't reach them, they were eventually removed. But lots ask to be removed when they leave.

The significant difference with Lutherans is that we believe Baptism brings one into the Family of God - the one, holy, catholic, communion of believers - but IN NO SENSE makes one a Lutheran or Catholic or Methodist or official member of any parish owned and operated by any denomination: they are baptized Christian and a part of the church catholic, but not made a part of any denomination. Thus, we don't speak of being Baptized a Lutheran. We also don't NECESSARILY consider one who has completed First Communion to be distinctively "Lutheran" (depends on the parish and/or denomination). One becomes a "Lutheran" at Confirmation - and at the same time, they DO become a formal member of a specific Lutheran parish by that objective event. A LUTHERAN can "transfer" that membership to other Lutheran parishes (again, the details of that differ); it may even lapse (due to inactivity for example) and be "reaffirmed." But, as in most parishes of most denominations, there is an official list of those who have officially placed their Confirmation Membership in that parish.... and most parishes take a good look at that list periodically, removing folks who have become "lost" (whereabouts unknown) or persistently inactive. Except for the point that the RCC and LDS consider one a member of the Denomination by virtue of being Baptized in that denomination (and most Protestants do not - they belong to the church catholic, not the denomination), I think "membership" is functionally very similar in nearly all denominations - at least in the USA.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I hate to disagree, but that is NOT my experience in the USA. To be regarded as "Catholic" one AT LEAST needed to be Baptized (and preferrably in a parish owned and operated by the RC Denomination). While such would be considered Catholic (big C) yes, there would be the expectation of regular involvement in a parish owned and operated by the Catholic denomination. But even then, it's not fully so. One would need to complete First Communion and Confirmation (receiving that Sacrament).

You didn't read what I wrote did you. I wrote "A Catholic becomes a member of a Catholic parish by attending mass at one of the parish's church buildings - my parish has three church buildings but one is in an isolated location and hasn't been used for masses for several years, the other two are in weekly and daily use. IN my country Catholic parishes do not have membership 'papers' it is enough to be a Catholic and start attending. It is also polite to let the church's office know who you are and give contact details, but that is not a requirement."

 

[NewCreation435]

I think pastors called to a specific church won't always do funerals outside of their membership (or their families) because they are called to the sheep of that flock and their time is filled caring for them (working on Sunday's sermon, bible studies, calling on the sick and homebound, etc).

For weddings, I had a requirement that you meet with me for premarital counseling at least three sessions, whether a church member or not. I did have one couple who came only one time and then they stopped coming. I think they might have broke up. I did a couple of other weddings for non church members including for my sister. They had their wedding on a boat at the dock and then many years later that boat sank right where it was. I think a hurricane came through Texas and it took on a lot of damage. Can't remember the name of the storm now

 

[MoreCoffee]

For weddings, I had a requirement that you meet with me for premarital counseling at least three sessions, whether a church member or not. I did have one couple who came only one time and then they stopped coming. I think they might have broke up. I did a couple of other weddings for non church members including for my sister. They had their wedding on a boat at the dock and then many years later that boat sank right where it was. I think a hurricane came through Texas and it took on a lot of damage. Can't remember the name of the storm now

Was the sinking of the boat a portent for the marriage? ... just wondered

My previous parish priest would marry a couple where at least one was a Catholic, they had to book the marriage at least six months prior to the marriage date and had to receive marriage instruction during the six months - usually once a week or once every two weeks - for most the instruction was beneficial but not for all because some people want to marry and really do not take Christ seriously.