Good to have an active Eastern Orthodox voice here.....
You've entered in the midst of a lengthy, on-going discussion between two Reformed Baptists and several with more traditional views on the topic of baptism. The Baptists have, as one of their 3 apologetics, that the word "kai" mandates chronological sequence, a point I've been disagreeing with. For example, the verse usually quoted is, "... repent and be baptized..." MY position is that these things are ASSOCIATED (linked if you will) but there is not a dogmatic mandate of chronological sequence so that the verse dogmatically mandates that FIRST the receiver himself/herself must repent and THEN (after that in sequence) the prohibition on baptism is lifted (I realize there's an issue of some of vicarious actions by sponsors but that's a different issue). I don't deny CONTEXT may suggest or imply order but the word itself doesn't carry that meaning. I've been told there are 3 koine Greek words that typically DO carry that connotation (usually translated as "then") but none of those appear in any text in connection to baptism. I made that point, to which Arthur gave that verse as proof that I was wrong.
In the West, for the past 500 years, the issue of Anti-Paedobaptism (and with it Credobaptism) are "hot button" issues for a tiny minority of Protestants. And since that IS the defining dogma for them, it's held passionately. It's a particularly hard topic to discuss.... and often lacking in any degree of intellectual honesty or a "level playing field." It's one of the very few topics that simply cannot be discussed here at CH (or pretty much anywhere).
Good to have you here....
- Josiah
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Thank you for your warm welcome... The kai, you are correct, does not imply the necessity of sequence, but merely the inclusion... But the issue is not that simple, because the baptism of John was unto repentance, and the Baptism of Christ comes after that... Christ baptizes in the Holy Spirit, and Paul records that we are baptized INTO Christ... Now in the matter of repentance being unto baptism, Paul writes of those who have tasted immortality and then returned to sin as being unable to do repentance again unto remission - And that means Baptism, which washes away all one's sins...
Here:
Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, (Baptized)
and have tasted of the heavenly Gift, (Communion)
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (Chrismated - Christed in Holy Unction)
And have tasted the good word of God, (Communion again?)
and the powers of the Age to come,
If they shall fall away,
to renew them again unto repentance; (eg that they should be re-baptized)
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, (for we are baptized into His Death)
and put Him to an open shame. (eg His Death on the Cross not being sufficient for our Salvation)
So from this passage, we can take it that repentance is unto Baptism into Christ and His Death...
THEN we "run the race" unto maturity in the Faith...
This is when "enhanced repentance" begins, foreshadowed by the Giants that the Israelites only encountered AFTER they entered the Promised Land - Where David slayed Goliath... So for most Orthodox, the greatest struggles with repentance come AFTER Baptism into Christ, the Promised Land that IS the Kingdom of Heaven... So that being a Catechumen is a paid vacation, and a gestation, but being birthed into Christ begins the hard work of the marriage... For Baptism is indeed a marriage to Christ... Then the marriage needs bear its Fruit...
So trying to exegetically swqueeze blood out of the sequentiality of repentance unto Baptism via the word kai is what we would call overly reliant on the written... Clearly, we acquire the Faith of Christ across a lifetime, and are entered into it in the Re-Birth into Christ that Baptism IS... The waiting time for Baptism with catechism in ancient times was three years, unless there were special circumstances... They had to be very sure they wanted what they were getting themselves in to... A life of self-denial to the end is a big deal...
Arsenios
