Do people have visions and dreams today?

[tango]

People are always looking for something tangible to give them direction. Often, it seems, the Bible is not enough. Having faith in God's sovereign design is not enough. Instead, we want signs and confirmation of our choices.
God, by his gracious favor, may grant our wish...or...he may not. Discerning whether God has given a sign seems very individualistic. Who knows if God really did what is claimed. However, if a person is drawn to deeper faith without imagining they are somehow a new, divinely inspired, prophet then it's of no consequence to spend time arguing. You feel God has specifically guided you and you glorify God. Great! If a person gives glory to God why would I be upset?

This is where God can use a variety of means to give a message far more personal than the pages of Scripture ever could.

If I feel that God is calling me to become a full-time minister there isn't a single verse in Scripture that will tell be definitively whether this is my calling or not. So if I want to confirm that it is God's will, before turning my life upside down to follow it, I'd like to have more than an inkling that it might be the right thing to do. In a situation like this the brutal reality is that the Bible is not enough - it can demonstrate that such a calling would be consistent with the way God works but can do nothing to tell me whether I, personally, am called in that way.

Of course if I feel that God is calling me to leave my wife and have an affair with my secretary it doesn't take very long to find Scripture that makes it very clear that it's nothing to do with God. In that regard Scripture may demonstrate that a feeling is definitely not from God but frequently can't determine whether it is - it can only verify that something is broadly in line with the revealed nature of God.

I think the reason discerning a sign is so individual is because the signs are individual - God knows what we need and has a habit of meeting us where we are. This is where so much of what is discussed as "evidence" ends up being anything but, with neither side willing to change their mind. As I mentioned in response to jsimms above, if he had shared details of the handful of times he received something personal from God the chances are none of the rest of us would be even remotely moved by them, yet from his description they clearly met him where he was and gave him what he needed.

 

[tango]

Actually most of my visions were personal and since they all came true that says it all. If you choose not to believe in dreams and visions from God your loss

The fact they came true doesn't automatically verify they were from God. In Deuteronomy 13 and 18 there is a two-stage process to verify - firstly if a prophecy does not come to pass then it can safely be said that God did not speak. If the prophecy does come to pass but the speaker then encourages people to follow other gods, the fulfilled prophecy was not from God. It's this second stage that I've used to disqualify some people who are presented as "Christian" teachers - they make grand claims of prophecies coming true but I can only conclude that I do not recognise the god they describe.

I've personally had dreams come true, exactly as I dreamed them, when I was involved in the occult.

 

[psalms 91]

The fact they came true doesn't automatically verify they were from God. In Deuteronomy 13 and 18 there is a two-stage process to verify - firstly if a prophecy does not come to pass then it can safely be said that God did not speak. If the prophecy does come to pass but the speaker then encourages people to follow other gods, the fulfilled prophecy was not from God. It's this second stage that I've used to disqualify some people who are presented as "Christian" teachers - they make grand claims of prophecies coming true but I can only conclude that I do not recognise the god they describe.

I've personally had dreams come true, exactly as I dreamed them, when I was involved in the occult.

As I said, either believe or dont for I know the truth

 

[tango]

As I said, either believe or dont for I know the truth

If "the truth" doesn't go anywhere beyond "it came true so it's from God" then, with respect, you may not actually know the truth. What I believe has nothing to do with it.

 

[MennoSota]

This is where God can use a variety of means to give a message far more personal than the pages of Scripture ever could.

If I feel that God is calling me to become a full-time minister there isn't a single verse in Scripture that will tell be definitively whether this is my calling or not. So if I want to confirm that it is God's will, before turning my life upside down to follow it, I'd like to have more than an inkling that it might be the right thing to do. In a situation like this the brutal reality is that the Bible is not enough - it can demonstrate that such a calling would be consistent with the way God works but can do nothing to tell me whether I, personally, am called in that way.

Of course if I feel that God is calling me to leave my wife and have an affair with my secretary it doesn't take very long to find Scripture that makes it very clear that it's nothing to do with God. In that regard Scripture may demonstrate that a feeling is definitely not from God but frequently can't determine whether it is - it can only verify that something is broadly in line with the revealed nature of God.

I think the reason discerning a sign is so individual is because the signs are individual - God knows what we need and has a habit of meeting us where we are. This is where so much of what is discussed as "evidence" ends up being anything but, with neither side willing to change their mind. As I mentioned in response to jsimms above, if he had shared details of the handful of times he received something personal from God the chances are none of the rest of us would be even remotely moved by them, yet from his description they clearly met him where he was and gave him what he needed.

Notice how you rely on feelings, which apparently trumps faith.
Could it be that God will simply bring shepherds into the church without a sign?
I have seen many people, who never should have been pastors, go into seminary based on a feeling. Why not ask wise elders to decide and give guidance? If they say, no, then you have your answer. Feelings are far too fickle.

 

[Albion]

If "the truth" doesn't go anywhere beyond "it came true so it's from God" then, with respect, you may not actually know the truth. What I believe has nothing to do with it.

Not to mention that it doesn't do much for an online "DISCUSSION" board. LOL

 

[tango]

Notice how you rely on feelings, which apparently trumps faith.
Could it be that God will simply bring shepherds into the church without a sign?
I have seen many people, who never should have been pastors, go into seminary based on a feeling. Why not ask wise elders to decide and give guidance? If they say, no, then you have your answer. Feelings are far too fickle.

Where did I say I rely on feelings, or that they trump faith? I said that if I have a feeling about something I can look for ways to verify it, given there isn't a single verse in Scripture that will tell me conclusively whether I, as an individual, am called to this ministry or that ministry.

Yes, God may bring shepherds into the church with or without a sign. But that avoids the issue completely because presumably they were called somehow and had to verify and validate that calling.

One can certainly ask wise elders for guidance. Where do you suppose they wil get their insights? They may be able to tell me from their own insights into my nature that I wouldn't be suited for a particular ministry, they may be able to tell me that they think I'd be good at something, but how will they help determine what God's will for my life is without some form of additional insight?

I agree entirely that feelings are far too fickle, but I think you've used that to conveniently miss the entire point of what I'm saying here.

 

[MennoSota]

Where did I say I rely on feelings, or that they trump faith? I said that if I have a feeling about something I can look for ways to verify it, given there isn't a single verse in Scripture that will tell me conclusively whether I, as an individual, am called to this ministry or that ministry.

Yes, God may bring shepherds into the church with or without a sign. But that avoids the issue completely because presumably they were called somehow and had to verify and validate that calling.

One can certainly ask wise elders for guidance. Where do you suppose they wil get their insights? They may be able to tell me from their own insights into my nature that I wouldn't be suited for a particular ministry, they may be able to tell me that they think I'd be good at something, but how will they help determine what God's will for my life is without some form of additional insight?

I agree entirely that feelings are far too fickle, but I think you've used that to conveniently miss the entire point of what I'm saying here.

Prophets in the Old Testament were inspired by God to write. Some reveal that God directly spoke to them and chose them. Others were chosen to be in a community of prophets (see Elisha's community). In the New Testament the gift of prophesy is acknowledged by the elders. Some mystical "calling" is never brought up. The nebulous phrase, "calling," is far too abused in the church. Generally people use the term to trump wise counsel and do what they selfishly desire. I am very skeptical of the self-proclaimed "calling" that people use as an authority to their actions.

 

[psalms 91]

If "the truth" doesn't go anywhere beyond "it came true so it's from God" then, with respect, you may not actually know the truth. What I believe has nothing to do with it.

The one vision was of a flaming cross in the sky, I wont bore you with what it means but at the time I didnt know it was only later talking with a minister that I came to find out its meaning as he had had the same vision many years before. As for dreamsagain you can believe or not, suffice it to say that that I have had second witness to the fact and like someone said earlier this has not happened that often but always at a time when I desperately needed a word and thank God He was faithful. So this is why I care nothing of what anyone may make of this for I know it to be true and once I know the truth I will not be shaken or moved.

 

[tango]

Prophets in the Old Testament were inspired by God to write. Some reveal that God directly spoke to them and chose them. Others were chosen to be in a community of prophets (see Elisha's community). In the New Testament the gift of prophesy is acknowledged by the elders. Some mystical "calling" is never brought up. The nebulous phrase, "calling," is far too abused in the church. Generally people use the term to trump wise counsel and do what they selfishly desire. I am very skeptical of the self-proclaimed "calling" that people use as an authority to their actions.

Yes, some people do use terms like "calling" in ways that aren't appropriate. But you're still dodging the issue here - who are the elders if not those who are chosen (or called, if you wish) to lead the church? How does one determine whether to accept a nomination to be an elder? How does a church determine who should be an elder? Before you mention the qualifications in Scripture, those can be used to disqualify a potential candidate but not confirm a candidate who matches them.

Do you believe that certain people are called by God to become ministers? If so, how would you go about verifying such a calling, given there isn't a single verse in Scripture that tells me, as an individual, whether God's will for my life is to be a pastor, an elder, an usher, or the guy who cleans the toilets once everyone else is done (or indeed some combination of those things).

 

[tango]

The one vision was of a flaming cross in the sky, I wont bore you with what it means but at the time I didnt know it was only later talking with a minister that I came to find out its meaning as he had had the same vision many years before. As for dreamsagain you can believe or not, suffice it to say that that I have had second witness to the fact and like someone said earlier this has not happened that often but always at a time when I desperately needed a word and thank God He was faithful. So this is why I care nothing of what anyone may make of this for I know it to be true and once I know the truth I will not be shaken or moved.

... and immediately we're back to methods one might test a dream or vision rather than simply dreaming it and assuming it must be from God, right?

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, some people do use terms like "calling" in ways that aren't appropriate. But you're still dodging the issue here - who are the elders if not those who are chosen (or called, if you wish) to lead the church? How does one determine whether to accept a nomination to be an elder? How does a church determine who should be an elder? Before you mention the qualifications in Scripture, those can be used to disqualify a potential candidate but not confirm a candidate who matches them.

Do you believe that certain people are called by God to become ministers? If so, how would you go about verifying such a calling, given there isn't a single verse in Scripture that tells me, as an individual, whether God's will for my life is to be a pastor, an elder, an usher, or the guy who cleans the toilets once everyone else is done (or indeed some combination of those things).

I believe we can apply this to elders as well. Frankly, I think there is a teaching elder who we often call pastor, but the structure we see in churches today is often foreign to the early church.
Here's the verse.
1 Timothy 3
[10]Before they are appointed as deacons, let them be closely examined. If they pass the test, then let them serve as deacons.

 

[Andrew]

... and immediately we're back to methods one might test a dream or vision rather than simply dreaming it and assuming it must be from God, right?

Has anyone ever prayed in a dream? I had a dream that my sister was very sick and dying and had a leg amputated... It was so disturbing that I cried out to God and asked him to please change it all back, i remember being on my knees and not knowing it was a dream but I was crying in deep pain... Sure enough I woke up and everything was as it was lol I was so happy it really felt like that dream was perhaps a test of my faith by something ungodly but I prayed myself awake and was full of joy

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[tango]

I believe we can apply this to elders as well. Frankly, I think there is a teaching elder who we often call pastor, but the structure we see in churches today is often foreign to the early church.
Here's the verse.
1 Timothy 3
[10]Before they are appointed as deacons, let them be closely examined. If they pass the test, then let them serve as deacons.

Does a qualification alone entitle someone to be a deacon/elder? One would hope that most members of a church would pass the qualifications but it makes little sense to have a church where 80% of the members are deacons and elders.

 

[MennoSota]

Does a qualification alone entitle someone to be a deacon/elder? One would hope that most members of a church would pass the qualifications but it makes little sense to have a church where 80% of the members are deacons and elders.

You'd be dreaming if you thought 80% could pass the qualifications.
The point is...the leaders of the church were commissioned to determine who was gifted to fulfill the various roles in the body. People were not individually deciding based upon some mystical experience they felt was calling them.

 

[tango]

You'd be dreaming if you thought 80% could pass the qualifications.
The point is...the leaders of the church were commissioned to determine who was gifted to fulfill the various roles in the body. People were not individually deciding based upon some mystical experience they felt was calling them.

Commissioned? By whom?

Since you're clearly not getting what I'm saying about there being so much more to it than a feeling I really can't be bothered to keep explaining it. If you can't see by now that I'm talking about a sense of calling that is subsequently validated by some other means there's little point continuing to discuss it.

 

[MennoSota]

Commissioned? By whom?

Since you're clearly not getting what I'm saying about there being so much more to it than a feeling I really can't be bothered to keep explaining it. If you can't see by now that I'm talking about a sense of calling that is subsequently validated by some other means there's little point continuing to discuss it.

How do you "sense" a calling? Mystically?

 

[NewCreation435]

You'd be dreaming if you thought 80% could pass the qualifications.
The point is...the leaders of the church were commissioned to determine who was gifted to fulfill the various roles in the body. People were not individually deciding based upon some mystical experience they felt was calling them.

Are you saying that is the case today as well? That the elders or deacons are suppose to determine every person's gifts and their role? Despite what that individual might want to do or feel he or she is qualified to do? I wouldn't go to a church that did that.

 

[MennoSota]

Are you saying that is the case today as well? That the elders or deacons are suppose to determine every person's gifts and their role? Despite what that individual might want to do or feel he or she is qualified to do? I wouldn't go to a church that did that.

No. I apply it to the roles of shepherding such as elders and deacons. The apostles gave us a guideline for who should be an elder or a deacon. The preacher in a church is really a teaching elder.

 

[Albion]

Does a qualification alone entitle someone to be a deacon/elder? One would hope that most members of a church would pass the qualifications but it makes little sense to have a church where 80% of the members are deacons and elders.

That's right. The number of deacons in any congregation was few, just as with the historic churches of today which continue with the standard orders of clergy (bishop, presbyters, deacons).

The NT gives the qualifications, but not everyone meeting them was made a deacon. Not any more than you can have the qualifications for holding some job in the business world but the company decides to hire someone else who also meets them.