Is there a thing that can be done that will not be forgiven? If so what is it?

[popsthebuilder]

You cannot choose what God does not allow you to choose. It's not like you "choose" to submit (as if you were so powerful that you could beat God in a fight) to God. You ARE beneath God's will. God does what He wills and you can do nothing to thwart it.
The ultimate question is whether you trust God to act perfectly and lovingly on your behalf (even when great tragedy falls upon you). Do you trust Him in all things and in all circumstances? Do you believe that "all things work together for good to those who love God"?

Of course I do.

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[MennoSota]

Of course I do.

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Great, then you do not have a free will. You have a will that can only move within the area of God's ordained will.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Great, then you do not have a free will. You have a will that can only move within the area of God's ordained will.

Which is what I have said all along.

Our freedom to choose is GOD'S will.

Do you think all who aren't the very elect are damned to hell?

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[MennoSota]

Which is what I have said all along.

Our freedom to choose is GOD'S will.

Do you think all who aren't the very elect are damned to hell?

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You have it mixed up. God wills and you choose as He wills.

Those whom God leaves to their own sinful corruption are justly condemned to hell. This is clearly taught in scripture. It has little to do with what I think and everything to do with what God says.

 

[atpollard]

If you are going to debate "free will" you should really define the term first. Different people mean different things by the same term.

From THEOPEDIA:

"Probably the most common definition of free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition," and specifically that these "free will" choices are not ultimately predestined by God."

"This is a doctrinal distinction between the theologies of Calvinism and Arminianism: In Arminianism, God saves those who believe of their own free will. In Calvinism, God saves those who willingly believe as a result of sovereign enablement by the regenerating work of the Spirit."

Compatibilist freedom
In compatibilism, free will is affected by human nature and man will never choose contrary to his nature and desires. Man will always do what he desires most at any particular moment - even when there are competing desires. And man is not able to freely change the direction or the degree of his desires. God is the one who must turn his heart.

Libertarian freedom
In libertarianism (not to be confused with the political ideology), free will is affected by human nature but man retains ability to choose contrary to his nature and desires. Man has the moral ability to turn to God in Christ and believe of his own "free will," apart from a divine, irresistible grace. Indeed, according to Open Theism, God is anxiously waiting to see what each person will do, for he cannot know ahead of time what the choice might be. Or, according to Arminianism, God chooses to save those whom he foresees will believe of their own free will.

**********

I have tried to avoid any supporting or opposing views and just extract the basic definitions for you.

 

[psalms 91]

You have it mixed up. God wills and you choose as He wills.

Those whom God leaves to their own sinful corruption are justly condemned to hell. This is clearly taught in scripture. It has little to do with what I think and everything to do with what God says.

If such is the case then there is no free will or choices, it is all God

 

[popsthebuilder]

You have it mixed up. God wills and you choose as He wills.

Those whom God leaves to their own sinful corruption are justly condemned to hell. This is clearly taught in scripture. It has little to do with what I think and everything to do with what God says.

GOD says HE is merciful and wishes for all to come to HIM.

does what you are preaching sound very merciful to any here....we aren't told to throw whole words out with their definition. What is mercy?

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[popsthebuilder]

If you are going to debate "free will" you should really define the term first. Different people mean different things by the same term.

From THEOPEDIA:

"Probably the most common definition of free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition," and specifically that these "free will" choices are not ultimately predestined by God."

"This is a doctrinal distinction between the theologies of Calvinism and Arminianism: In Arminianism, God saves those who believe of their own free will. In Calvinism, God saves those who willingly believe as a result of sovereign enablement by the regenerating work of the Spirit."

Compatibilist freedom
In compatibilism, free will is affected by human nature and man will never choose contrary to his nature and desires. Man will always do what he desires most at any particular moment - even when there are competing desires. And man is not able to freely change the direction or the degree of his desires. God is the one who must turn his heart.

Libertarian freedom
In libertarianism (not to be confused with the political ideology), free will is affected by human nature but man retains ability to choose contrary to his nature and desires. Man has the moral ability to turn to God in Christ and believe of his own "free will," apart from a divine, irresistible grace. Indeed, according to Open Theism, God is anxiously waiting to see what each person will do, for he cannot know ahead of time what the choice might be. Or, according to Arminianism, God chooses to save those whom he foresees will believe of their own free will.

**********

I have tried to avoid any supporting or opposing views and just extract the basic definitions for you.

The last one is very similar to how I believe. Though we perceive our freedom; GOD knows our will all along; being all knowing and our Creator.

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[MennoSota]

If such is the case then there is no free will or choices, it is all God

Indeed.
You cannot choose outside of God's ordained will.
I am a Monergist. It is all God.
I am not a Synergist. God is not offering co-decision making where we argue with God to work out a compromise.

 

[MennoSota]

GOD says HE is merciful and wishes for all to come to HIM.

does hat you are preaching sound very merciful to any here....we aren't told to through who words out with there definition. What is mercy?

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All who are chosen will come.
Look at the context of 2 Peter and you will easily see that the "all" is not universal. The "all" is Peters audience, which is chosen (see the first verses in 1 Peter). It's really simple observation if you actually try.
As to your perception of mercy, you fail to grasp that God does not immediately exact justice upon corrupt sinners. That expresses a God who is rich in mercy.

 

[psalms 91]

Indeed.
You cannot choose outside of God's ordained will.
I am a Monergist. It is all God.
I am not a Synergist. God is not offering co-decision making where we argue with God to work out a compromise.

Yet we know thta man has free will or do you think Adam was directed by God to fall?

 

[atpollard]

Yet we know that man has free will or do you think Adam was directed by God to fall?

The concept is called "Federal Headship". It means that Adam had free will, and the responsibility to choose for all of humanity. When Adam sinned, all mankind became sinners. The same applies to Jesus. Jesus is the "Federal Head" of all who believe, so as Jesus was righteous, so through Jesus, all that believe are 'justified' (viewed by God as righteous).

So Adam had "Libertine Free Will" (the ability to choose sin or righteousness) and we have "Compatible Free Will" (the ability to follow are fallen nature and choose sin over God) ... hence the need for God to give us a new heart and draw us to Jesus.

 

[MennoSota]

Yet we know thta man has free will or do you think Adam was directed by God to fall?

First, Adam was not corrupted by sin.
Second, God could have stopped Adam and Eve from sinning, but God didn't. This is not because Adam had free will, but because God ordained that Adam could, indeed would, sin.
Free-will would give Adam the power to stay in the Garden, despite his sin. If his will was free, he could have defied God and fought off God to force God out of the garden. That didn't happen. Why? Because Adam could only do what God had ordained that he could do.
The struggle that people have with grasping predestination is that they mistakenly think it means an unthinking determinism where humans are programmed to act a certain way. This is not what God describes in predestination. Predestination, according to scripture, is that what God ordains will always take place exactly as God has ordained it.
Determinism is actually a position of naturalism/evolution which postulates that nature predetermines all that happens because molecules will function exactly as nature dictates. No human or indeed nothing in nature is free. It is all bound by the laws and function of nature.
Interestingly, a deist who believes that God created and then left creation to the laws of nature would logically argue that nature has determined the actions of every person, indeed everything, so that fate is set and is unchangeable. People act exactly as nature has programmed them to act.

 

[psalms 91]

I disagree with your theology so I guess we will agree to disagree

 

[popsthebuilder]

Indeed.
You cannot choose outside of God's ordained will.
I am a Monergist. It is all God.
I am not a Synergist. God is not offering co-decision making where we argue with God to work out a compromise.

How is it a compromise to wholly wish to seek to do the will of GOD in one's own life?

How is patience and long suffering to be perceived as mercy when you say the vast majority are doomed to eternal destruction for the way they were made, and supposedly have no capacity to change? How is that mercy in any form what so ever?

I do agree that GOD is long-suffering though.


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[MennoSota]

How is it a compromise to wholly wish to seek to do the will of GOD in one's own life?

How is patience and long suffering to be perceived as mercy when you say the vast majority are doomed to eternal destruction for the way they were made, and supposedly have no capacity to change? How is that mercy in any form what so ever?

I do agree that GOD is long-suffering though.


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You seem to imagine that humans are holy and perfect so that God must look upon them and welcome them all into heaven. You present God as unloving and unmerciful if he considers humans to be "desperately wicked" and "filthy rags."
Humans are corrupt at conception. We have proved this in scripture (though you reject what the Bible says). Justice demands payment for sin. You are desiring God to be unjust in order to fit your version version of love.
I suggest your concept of love is perverted.

 

[popsthebuilder]

All who are chosen will come.
Look at the context of 2 Peter and you will easily see that the "all" is not universal. The "all" is Peters audience, which is chosen (see the first verses in 1 Peter). It's really simple observation if you actually try.
As to your perception of mercy, you fail to grasp that God does not immediately exact justice upon corrupt sinners. That expresses a God who is rich in mercy.

Romans 11: 29. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31. Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Isaiah 49: 7. Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. 8. Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; 9. That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places. 10. They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them. 11. And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted. 12. Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim. 13. Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted. 15. Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. 22. Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. 25. But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.

Revelation 7: 9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 13. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

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[popsthebuilder]

You seem to imagine that humans are holy and perfect so that God must look upon them and welcome them all into heaven. You present God as unloving and unmerciful if he considers humans to be "desperately wicked" and "filthy rags."
Humans are corrupt at conception. We have proved this in scripture (though you reject what the Bible says). Justice demands payment for sin. You are desiring God to be unjust in order to fit your version version of love.
I suggest your concept of love is perverted.

You have proved nothing.

Is your God All-Knowing?

How many are the elect?

What is GOD'S purpose for the elect?

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[MennoSota]

Romans 11: 29. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31. Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Isaiah 49: 7. Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. 8. Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; 9. That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places. 10. They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them. 11. And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted. 12. Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim. 13. Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted. 15. Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. 22. Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. 25. But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.

Revelation 7: 9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 13. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

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Do you have a point or did you just intend to quote a Bible version that has a distinct lithsp...

 

[MennoSota]

You have proved nothing.

Is your God All-Knowing?

How many are the elect?

What is GOD'S purpose for the elect?

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God is all knowing.
The elect are exactly the number God chose before the foundation of the world.
The purpose of the elect is to show God’s grace and sovereignty.
The Bible says the angels long to understand grace because God provides no grace to the fallen angels. For them their doom is certain.
I notice you once again create a red herring to avoid your dilemma.