Paul Chief of Sinners

[Lamb]

1 Timothy 1:15King James Version (KJV)

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


This is a tangent from the Once Saved Always Saved thread to discuss Christians still being sinners while being righteous through Christ at the same time. Below is a link that describes what I believe in that we are simul justus et peccator.


https://sacrosanctgospel.wordpress....ccator-at-the-same-time-a-saint-and-a-sinner/

“Simul Justus et Peccator” is a phrase coined by Martin Luther that may be translated: “Righteous and at the same time a Sinner.” In making this statement Luther was making the point that every believer, in this life, is still in conflict with the sinful the nature. Therefore, our lives are impacted by the contaminating influence of sin.

 

[psalms 91]

exactly! That is why Paul wrote what he did at the beginning of Romans chapter 6

 

[Brighten04]

1 Timothy 1:15King James Version (KJV)

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


This is a tangent from the Once Saved Always Saved thread to discuss Christians still being sinners while being righteous through Christ at the same time. Below is a link that describes what I believe in that we are simul justus et peccator.


https://sacrosanctgospel.wordpress....ccator-at-the-same-time-a-saint-and-a-sinner/

“Simul Justus et Peccator” is a phrase coined by Martin Luther that may be translated: “Righteous and at the same time a Sinner.” In making this statement Luther was making the point that every believer, in this life, is still in conflict with the sinful the nature. Therefore, our lives are impacted by the contaminating influence of sin.

Really? You still believe you are a sinner? So if another believer can"lose" their salvation through committing sin, what keeps you believer from losing yours? If Jesus' blood is enough to cover your sin, it is also good enough to cover another believer who sins. My point is Jesus' blood is enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFSNQyTnPmM

 

[Lamb]

You have said in the other thread that you consider the term "sinner" to mean those who are not born again.

How does your theology relate to what Paul states in 1 Timothy 1:15? (I emphasized in bold the part that I'm asking about)
1 Timothy 1:15New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

You see, I gave my definition of sinner above in the OP whereas everyone Christian is still in conflict with our sinful nature. Paul addresses that too in scripture and not just in one place.

Are you against what Paul is saying?

 

[Tigger]

I think the problem starts when biblical doctrines aren't properly distinguish between 'Law & Gospel'. This really raises its head when understanding the Olivet discourse.

You have said in the other thread that you consider the term "sinner" to mean those who are not born again.

How does your theology relate to what Paul states in 1 Timothy 1:15? (I emphasized in bold the part that I'm asking about)
1 Timothy 1:15New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

You see, I gave my definition of sinner above in the OP whereas everyone Christian is still in conflict with our sinful nature. Paul addresses that too in scripture and not just in one place.

Are you against what Paul is saying?

 

[Lamb]

Law
Tells us what to do

Gospel
Tells us what Jesus has done


Law
Shows us our sin

Gospel
Shows us our Savior


Law
Always accuses

Gospel
Always forgives


Law
Brings death

Gospel
Brings life


Law
Demands perfect righteousness

Gospel
Gives the righteousness of God


Law
Kept by works

Gospel
Had by faith


Law
The Ten Commandments

Gospel
The Apostle's Creed


Law
Revealed in nature and creation

Gospel
Revealed in the Scripture alone


Law
Threatens

Gospel
Promises


Law
Demand

Gospel
Gift

http://www.hope-aurora.org/pages/NewLawGospel

 

[brinny]

Even if i am a child of God (saved), i still sin....i can relate to what Paul wrote.....

i'm THANKFUL the Holy Spirit convicts us and we take all of it to our heavenly Father, and he forgives us....

 

[Brighten04]

Law
Tells us what to do

Gospel
Tells us what Jesus has done


Law
Shows us our sin

Gospel
Shows us our Savior


Law
Always accuses

Gospel
Always forgives


Law
Brings death

Gospel
Brings life


Law
Demands perfect righteousness

Gospel
Gives the righteousness of God


Law
Kept by works

Gospel
Had by faith


Law
The Ten Commandments

Gospel
The Apostle's Creed


Law
Revealed in nature and creation

Gospel
Revealed in the Scripture alone


Law
Threatens

Gospel
Promises


Law
Demand

Gospel
Gift

http://www.hope-aurora.org/pages/NewLawGospel

Yes! Exactly! This is beautifully written by the way. I am never against what Paul preached. However Paul was a saint that struggled with his flesh like all of us do. And he shed light on the fact that his salvation was not dependent upon his work, but upon the fact that he trusted God, that the blood of Jesus is enough to keep him saved. Under grace, we have the advocacy of our Lord Jesus.
If we sin, Jesus makes it null and void. My point , as in the other thread, you cannot say that a person loses his salvation because he sins. If that is the case, then, Jesus' blood is not enough to save us or to keep us saved. Everybody commits sins. When we mix works(law) with grace we are saying Jesus' blood is not enough. I still hold that we are not sinners any longer. We are saints . We are children of the Most High God, Father of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

 

[visionary]

More you see sin in you the more you see yourself unworthy. The more the Holy Spirit reveals the more you see the depth of sins, from their roots, right through to their fruits. It affects you, your friends, your family, and those around you. Sin darkens the world, and kills the life that God put there for us.

 

[Brighten04]

More you see sin in you the more you see yourself unworthy. The more the Holy Spirit reveals the more you see the depth of sins, from their roots, right through to their fruits. It affects you, your friends, your family, and those around you. Sin darkens the world, and kills the life that God put there for us.

But, He has placed His life in us.
2 Cor.4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[visionary]

Law Tells us what to do
Gospel Tells us what Jesus has done

Law Shows us our sin
Gospel Shows us our Savior

Law Always accuses
Gospel Always forgives

Law Brings death
Gospel Brings life

Law Demands perfect righteousness
Gospel Gives the righteousness of God

Law Kept by works
Gospel Had by faith

Law The Ten Commandments
Gospel The Apostle's Creed

Law Revealed in nature and creation
Gospel Revealed in the Scripture alone

Law Threatens
Gospel Promises

Law Demand
Gospel Gift

http://www.hope-aurora.org/pages/NewLawGospel

You know you can not have the one without the other.

 

[visionary]

But, He has placed His life in us.
2 Cor.4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Holy Spirit reveals sin... we are the temple of God. May we reveal Him to the world.

 

[psalms 91]

Amen

 

[Brighten04]

holy spirit reveals sin... We are the temple of god. May we reveal him to the world.

amen!

 

[Lamb]

You know you can not have the one without the other.

EXACTLY so!! Law and Gospel go hand in hand and have done so since Genesis! When someone insists that the other doesn't exist, then he/she needs to look at what scripture says.

Now, the problem comes for most people in knowing application of Law and Gospel. Looking at the list above, we can determine that those in despair are the ones who need to hear the Gospel. Those stuck in their sins need to hear the Law. This is God's perfect way of teaching us and building us.

 

[visionary]

Paul hopefully was talking about the daily trip ups, rather than his whole past. Paul being a good Jew, has a ceremony that happens once a year that puts the past sins in the past. It is called Yom Kippur. A Rabbi explained the atonement of the Scapegoat on Yom Kippur the same way, “when one sees the High Priest confessing his sins, and the sins of all Jews upon the head of the scapegoat, and then sending it off the cliffs of Azazael via the appointed messenger, one is atoned for his sins. This is because one figuratively sees his sins being placed on the scapegoat, and no longer views himself as a sinner. http://www.mesora.org/redheifer.html