Can babies be conscious of their baptism?

[MennoSota]

Of course, there is the verse, "Baptism now saves you." I know how Anabaptists spin that (180 degrees) but even they admit there is no verse, "Baptism is SO stressed in Scripture but it's a waste of time and water and can't do a thing; it's part of the Great Commission - equal to teaching - but it's worthless."

Of course, Jesus said, "do this ... FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS." Matthew 26:28. Of course, there are those who say, "nope." The same ones who insist Jesus SO stressed "is" but He didn't mean that either. Even those who hate Communion will admit, there is no verse that says "This is ONLY a rememberance and nothing more..... this SYMBOLIZES His Body and Blood because Jesus is in heaven and because He is God He CANNOT be here.... this is NOT for the forgiveness of your sins."


BUT.... if you truly believed God put SO much emphasis on Baptism and Communion because they are foolish wastes of time that accomplish and convey NOTHING WHATSOEVER... then you wouldn't be all hot and bothered and angry about people doing them, not SO, SO fixatated on withholding them - you'd just be saying (as some less-than-uber Calvinists do) they are HIGHLY STRESSED Biblical obligations - that are entirely void of any purpose or meaning or blessings.


See 1 Corinthians 11:29-30. If Communion is NOTHING, worthless, powerless, just a religious rite that conveys and does nothing.... why does the Bible say some receive judgement... some are weak and sick and die? Tell me... why would a Calvinist participate in it at all? The only words of Jesus they accept are "take... eat... drink.... remembrance." Yet Paul seems to give it some power - including to make one weak, sick an dead. Why would something meaningless, worthless, useless, unable to be used by God, unable to accomplish anything, just a meaningless religious rite... why participate if it (this impotent mere rite) can make you weak, sick, dead (is that referring to spiritually or physically)? Oh, I know..... those words are disbelieved too. God CANNOT do that either.


But this thread isn't about the Eucharist.... or what percentage of what Jesus and Paul so boldly stated because God cannot to that.



- Josiah

Got it.
You preach that Jesus plus baptism forgives sins. You teach Jesus plus communion for the salvation of your soul.
I preach Sola gratia.

 

[Josiah]

Of course, there is the verse, "Baptism now saves you." I know how Anabaptists spin that (180 degrees) but even they admit there is no verse, "Baptism is SO stressed in Scripture but it's a waste of time and water and can't do a thing; it's part of the Great Commission - equal to teaching - but it's worthless."

Of course, Jesus said, "do this ... FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS." Matthew 26:28. Of course, there are those who say, "nope." The same ones who insist Jesus SO stressed "is" but He didn't mean that either. Even those who hate Communion will admit, there is no verse that says "This is ONLY a rememberance and nothing more..... this SYMBOLIZES His Body and Blood because Jesus is in heaven and because He is God He CANNOT be here.... this is NOT for the forgiveness of your sins."


BUT.... if you truly believed God put SO much emphasis on Baptism and Communion because they are foolish wastes of time that accomplish and convey NOTHING WHATSOEVER... then you wouldn't be all hot and bothered and angry about people doing them, not SO, SO fixatated on withholding them - you'd just be saying (as some less-than-uber Calvinists do) they are HIGHLY STRESSED Biblical obligations - that are entirely void of any purpose or meaning or blessings.


See 1 Corinthians 11:29-30. If Communion is NOTHING, worthless, powerless, just a religious rite that conveys and does nothing.... why does the Bible say some receive judgement... some are weak and sick and die? Tell me... why would a Calvinist participate in it at all? The only words of Jesus they accept are "take... eat... drink.... remembrance." Yet Paul seems to give it some power - including to make one weak, sick an dead. Why would something meaningless, worthless, useless, unable to be used by God, unable to accomplish anything, just a meaningless religious rite... why participate if it (this impotent mere rite) can make you weak, sick, dead (is that referring to spiritually or physically)? Oh, I know..... those words are disbelieved too. God CANNOT do that either.


But this thread isn't about the Eucharist.... or what percentage of what Jesus and Paul so boldly stated because God cannot to that.



.

You preach that Jesus plus baptism forgives sins

Well, of course I've NEVER said anything of the sort (as we all know) and you didn't get that from my post.... But I do believe that God CAN use tools to convey and grant things. There's one difference, I believe God can.... you believe God just can't do that, God is only able to work in absolute vacuums where NOTHING and NO ONE does anything and NOTHING is used by God. I don't see such rendered God impotent.... just as I don't see those under the age of X or the IQ of X rendering Him impotent... or even (to the point of this thread) someone being unconscience rendering God impotent. Jesus (point to the cup) says "THIS IS for the forgiveness of sins." I think He is able to grant forgiveness, using that tool (Of course, He can NOT using that tool, too - but then I'm not the one fixated on what God can't do). Some have a small God... they look at what the Bible verbatim says (such as in 1 Corinthians 11:23-30 and Matthew 26:28 and just tell God, "You can't do that, so this must mean the opposite of what You said."



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[MennoSota]

Well, of course I've NEVER said anything of the sort (as we all know) and you didn't get that from my post.... But I do believe that God CAN use tools to convey and grant things. There's one difference, I believe God can.... you believe God just can't do that, God is only able to work in absolute vacuums where NOTHING and NO ONE does anything and NOTHING is used by God. I don't see such rendered God impotent.... just as I don't see those under the age of X or the IQ of X rendering Him impotent... or even (to the point of this thread) someone being unconscience rendering God impotent. Jesus (point to the cup) says "THIS IS for the forgiveness of sins." I think He is able to grant forgiveness, using that tool (Of course, He can NOT using that tool, too - but then I'm not the one fixated on what God can't do). Some have a small God... they look at what the Bible verbatim says (such as in 1 Corinthians 11:23-30 and Matthew 26:28 and just tell God, "You can't do that, so this must mean the opposite of what You said."



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Josiah, if this were just an issue of what God can do, then we are simply talking about God's omnipotence. That is not the argument. The argument you are making is that God effectually saves infants when they are baptized. The argument you are making is that God effectually saves a person when they partake of the communion elements. You misuse scripture to force your denominational teachings upon God's word. Thus you remove Sola Gratia and Sola Scriptura from your sola's.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

No, I was not "dunked" to extend grace to me.
God already extended grace. My adoption was secured by God alone. Water baptism was merely an act of obedience to share with the community that God had already redeemed me.

You didn't read my post correctly. What you've just said is what I suspected you believed. So why were you baptized if it didn't serve a purpose except to "share with the community" (i.e. to confirm that "yup, this one's okay... next")
If works are so insignificant, why be obedient in baptism?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Yes. Shall we go over to Luther Seminary where you can meet them?

Be careful, they may extend grace to you. Lutherans enjoy that

 

[MennoSota]

You didn't read my post correctly. What you've just said is what I suspected you believed. So why were you baptized if it didn't serve a purpose except to "share with the community" (i.e. to confirm that "yup, this one's okay... next")
If works are so insignificant, why be obedient in baptism?

Obedience
God tells me that once he has redeemed me and adopted me as His child, I should be baptized so I can declare to the world that God has placed me into His family. I am no longer a rebel who fights against God and despises His Sovereignty. I am now His child and I symbolically display that I have died with Christ, been buried and rose again with Christ. I am now seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus.

 

[MennoSota]

Be careful, they may extend grace to you. Lutherans enjoy that

They don't believe Jesus is God. It's impossible for them to extend grace.

 

[Andrew]

Got it.
You preach that Jesus plus baptism forgives sins. You teach Jesus plus communion for the salvation of your soul.
I preach Sola gratia.

Umumumum... I find this statement a bit off.
Baptism is required yay or nay?
I'll spare you the moment, they answer is yay. Baptism is required for the remission of sins, it was custom to baptise before becoming a priest (in Judaism) so now because we are no longer under the law the least we can do (and must) is to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ, I know you are not suggesting otherwise just as preachers of 'no works' are not suggesting sinful pleasures are ok.
The sobering fact is that under law we would not even be alive, we would all (Christians) be stoned to death but because Christ saves us and the Jew first (which is true) we are saved from Jewish law AND have eternal life. Evidence of our sin is seen in the fact that we all die and the evidence of salvation is that we have faith and believe we will be resurrected from death by Christ and live forever in Heaven, baptism is required for no one can see the kingdom without it.
Like Albion said, those who get baptised as adults often still live in sin, just as you suggested the same but for infant baptism, BOTH come into grace and that is where the mercy of God is induced.
You are no different than a murderer and the Pope is no different than you, you cannot knick pick on peoples behavior because we are under grace and not law. Those who understand this should get baptised and if (like me) wish to get baptised again as an adult well so be it, God bless them and may God mark their foreheads with his name and the Lord be with them.
Brother Menno I know what you mean, I understand everyone's view on this topic, no one is contradicting the word here, we are all but disciples arguing who is the most righteous which can come off as selling the Word a bit short, the Word can not be beat even in defending it.
Baptised in the Name might not even have anything to do with water at all, its the burial in Jesus and the new man that comes out but water is symbolic of the old custom, and it should definitely never be opposed especially since we use water on a daily basis and there is much water to go around... Its a resource that humans cant live without.




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[atpollard]

Be careful, they may extend grace to you. Lutherans enjoy that

Can’t prove it by many of the responses around here. :ewink:

 

[MennoSota]

Umumumum... I find this statement a bit off.
Baptism is required yay or nay?
I'll spare you the moment, they answer is yay. Baptism is required for the remission of sins, it was custom to baptise before becoming a priest (in Judaism) so now because we are no longer under the law the least we can do (and must) is to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ, I know you are not suggesting otherwise just as preachers of 'no works' are not suggesting sinful pleasures are ok.
The sobering fact is that under law we would not even be alive, we would all (Christians) be stoned to death but because Christ saves us and the Jew first (which is true) we are saved from Jewish law AND have eternal life. Evidence of our sin is seen in the fact that we all die and the evidence of salvation is that we have faith and believe we will be resurrected from death by Christ and live forever in Heaven, baptism is required for no one can see the kingdom without it.
Like Albion said, those who get baptised as adults often still live in sin, just as you suggested the same but for infant baptism, BOTH come into grace and that is where the mercy of God is induced.
You are no different than a murderer and the Pope is no different than you, you cannot knick pick on peoples behavior because we are under grace and not law. Those who understand this should get baptised and if (like me) wish to get baptised again as an adult well so be it, God bless them and may God mark their foreheads with his name and the Lord be with them.
Brother Menno I know what you mean, I understand everyone's view on this topic, no one is contradicting the word here, we are all but disciples arguing who is the most righteous which can come off as selling the Word a bit short, the Word can not be beat even in defending it.
Baptised in the Name might not even have anything to do with water at all, its the burial in Jesus and the new man that comes out but water is symbolic of the old custom, and it should definitely never be opposed especially since we use water on a daily basis and there is much water to go around... Its a resource that humans cant live without.




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Disagree. You miss by a wide margin, which means you don't get it.
The Bible is clear. Lutherans and Catholics are dead wrong (dead in trespasses and sins wrong) when they preach atonement via sacraments.

 

[Andrew]

Disagree. You miss by a wide margin, which means you don't get it.
The Bible is clear. Lutherans and Catholics are dead wrong (dead in trespasses and sins wrong) when they preach atonement via sacraments.

Oh ok well according to you we should all just sit on our hands and hope that God blesses us like duck duck goose.

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[MennoSota]

Oh ok well according to you we should all just sit on our hands and hope that God blesses us like duck duck goose.

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Nope. Eat drink and be merry. If God does not adopt your rebel soul, you should enjoy this life as much as you can. You think you'd just be annihilated anyway so no justice would even be dealt.
By the way...it's gray duck.

 

[Andrew]

Nope. Eat drink and be merry. If God does not adopt your rebel soul, you should enjoy this life as much as you can. You think you'd just be annihilated anyway so no justice would even be dealt.
By the way...it's gray duck.

Ha! Your funny.
And yes I believe that the dead bury the dead and I believe in the resurrection of the dead 'in Christ' according to Christ's gospel.
But whatever you don't believe in baptism and if you do than its according to Menno... I really don't know what your view is because your voice wasn't loud enough for me to notice, I just sense you as stern and hard headed but I love you either way.
Debating baptism is not what this thread about. It's about if a baby less than a month old (or so) would be aware of the fact that it is being baptised by the Word of God or that something of that effect is 'known' to the child... a bit of an offbeat topic I admit but you wish to convince us that the scripture is a lie because baptism is meaningless and abusive to the soul.
Actually I assume this from you by a few post I read and your response to me, to be frank I have read maybe 20% of this thread as its growing an arm and a limb every 10 seconds.

Eat drink and be merry... and don't get baptised... can I read?

 

[MennoSota]

Ha! Your funny.
And yes I believe that the dead bury the dead and I believe in the resurrection of the dead 'in Christ' according to Christ's gospel.
But whatever you don't believe in baptism and if you do than its according to Menno... I really don't know what your view is because your voice wasn't loud enough for me to notice, I just sense you as stern and hard headed but I love you either way.
Debating baptism is not what this thread about. It's about if a baby less than a month old (or so) would be aware of the fact that it is being baptised by the Word of God or that something of that effect is 'known' to the child... a bit of an offbeat topic I admit but you wish to convince us that the scripture is a lie because baptism is meaningless and abusive to the soul.
Actually I assume this from you by a few post I read and your response to me, to be frank I have read maybe 20% of this thread as its growing an arm and a limb every 10 seconds.


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I don't read baptismal regeneration (a grace, plus theology) into the Bible.

 

[Andrew]

I don't read baptismal regeneration (a grace, plus theology) into the Bible.

What about the people who print out the bible? Should they just ingest the word themselves and stop printing all together? Perhaps they would feel so at ease with your philosophy that they just eat drink and be merry and forget the next generation.
Go ahead menno and post another one line response since you are the great disciple among us and knows whats best for us, I just get so moved by them... short sweet and tough!

 

[MennoSota]

What about the people who print out the bible? Should they just ingest the word themselves and stop printing all together? Perhaps they would feel so at ease with your philosophy that they just eat drink and be merry and forget the next generation.
Go ahead menno and post another one line response since you are the great disciple among us and knows whats best for us, I just get so moved by them... short sweet and tough!

Where does the Bible say " don't go and don't share the gospel"?
The difference between us is that I trust God to accomplish His will, with or without me. I can't screw up so badly that God won't be capable of redeeming his elect children. I don't suffer guilt. I thank God for saving me and giving me a role in His Kingdom. Sharing the gospel is a joy, not a job.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

They don't believe Jesus is God. It's impossible for them to extend grace.

See HERE for new thread and discussion on this point

 

[Andrew]

Where does the Bible say " don't go and don't share the gospel"?
The difference between us is that I trust God to accomplish His will, with or without me. I can't screw up so badly that God won't be capable of redeeming his elect children. I don't suffer guilt. I thank God for saving me and giving me a role in His Kingdom. Sharing the gospel is a joy, not a job.

Well nothing wrong with that my friend, I hope you teach good messages that will leave them with some convection of the heart so that they can be raised in Gods glory and transform themselves from the old man to the new. I pray they speak no more profanity and work good honest work for food on the table other than thieving goods from others. The bible gives us some clear examples of what to expect in the new man. Conviction is a must, its a tool of grace and mercy, instead of speaking profanities that should now speak them no more, let the thief steal no more and work so he can eat with dignity etc...
Menno menno menno i like you but you are misunderstood, your hearts in the right place but you have an issue with conversations when showing the beauty of your revelations with God. Is thruth. You are cutting ears and Jesus is healing them. Put down your sword dear menno. Find a better approach because you only are offending many of your brothers and sisters.

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[MennoSota]

Well nothing wrong with that my friend, I hope you teach good messages that will leave them with some convection of the heart so that they can be raised in Gods glory and transform themselves from the old man to the new. I pray they speak no more profanity and work good honest work for food on the table other than thieving goods from others. The bible gives us some clear examples of what to expect in the new man. Conviction is a must, its a tool of grace and mercy, instead of speaking profanities that should now speak them no more, let the thief steal no more and work so he can eat with dignity etc...
Menno menno menno i like you but you are misunderstood, your hearts in the right place but you have an issue with conversations when showing the beauty of your revelations with God. Is thruth. You are cutting ears and Jesus is healing them. Put down your sword dear menno. Find a better approach because you only are offending many of your brothers and sisters.

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It's not my job to convict anyone. It's my task to speak the gospel and share God's word. God will convict as He wills. That's God's job.

 

[Andrew]

It's not my job to convict anyone. It's my task to speak the gospel and share God's word. God will convict as He wills. That's God's job.

I meant ones own convictions of the heart by God

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