Pitting faith against reason

Albion

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That is grasping at straws or fighting a straw man argument.

Perhaps it is just that you don't appreciate the point.

It's not the case that infants do not understand all the things of God perfectly--but that adults do!

How many adults actually do? I assure you that almost any teenager who memorizes some print material can be baptized in a congregation of a denomination that stands for "Believers Baptism." He does not have to understand much of anything about the Bible or of God or what a conversion experience is all about. No matter. He will be baptized.

The distinction between infants and such persons (or many people who are older, too) is a phony one.
 

MennoSota

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I think for the most part this is true. If the things we can clearly see in front of us contradict what we have been told to believe then the chances are something is wrong.

That said, there are clearly examples throughout Scripture where a degree of blind faith was required. We see Elijah asking the widow to make him a cake, and her oil and flour never ran out. We see Ezekiel in the valley of dry bones, prophesying and watching them live. We see the Israelites leave oppression under Pharoah and walk out into, well, nobody knew just what beyond the fact Moses said it was a good idea.

Part of my concern with some of the more far-out concepts of "faith" is that they take a snippet from Scripture (such as the one psalms91 posted) but then distort the context such that it turns into a blind faith with no basis in reality whatsoever. It may be that God will ask us to take a step of faith, and it may be that God will only give us glimpses (and maybe not even that) of where the path ahead leads. But God knows our failings and I'd put money on God encouraging us to take small steps of faith before the huge leap into the dark appears.

Of course a part of the issue is that, in many ways, Scripture is silent. It tells me what I need to know about God but doesn't tell me details of what God might have in store for my life. It gives general callings (e.g. "Go into the world and preach the gospel") but "the world" could mean the other side of the world or it could be the housing projects a couple of miles away. "Love thy neighbor" applies just as much to my literal next-door-neighbor as it does to the guy in the seat beside me on the plane if I'm flying abroad. So in that regard it's entirely possible, even likely, that the best I can do regarding testing what I think is a calling from God is to confirm it is consistent with the general character of God - Scripture alone may be able to demonstrate that the "calling" is not from God but probably can't definitively say that it is. To take a silly example, if I feel led to start a relationship with my secretary it doesn't take very long to find verses in Scripture that make it clear such a "leading" is not from God. On the other hand if I feel led to become a missionary to Bolivia there isn't a verse in Scripture that will specifically tell me whether or not I am right.

My issue with those who encourage a totally blind faith is that quite frequently the "faith" is little more than wishful thinking, or a faith in something other than God. If they bring me a "word from God" and encourage me to have blind faith in it, what they are asking is that I put a huge amount of faith in them, rather than faith in God. If the message is truly from God, God is quite capable of confirming it in some other way - God knows what it will take to convince me it is him speaking rather than the ramblings of a self-proclaimed "prophet". Likewise "the hope of things unseen" might be the hope that, one day, a gleaming new Lamborghini Huracan will appear on my driveway. As a rule my understanding is that before such a thing happens I need to do my part (specifically hand over something north of $200,000), and to insist that I have faith that my new Lamborghini is on its way given I haven't done the "handing over money" stage is to do little more than deny reality. Yes, it is theoretically possible that God will follow up the first chapter of Genesis with a proclamation "Let there be a gleaming black Lamborghini Huracan on tango's driveway" and see, as I'm sure I would, that it was good. I just wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.

I think the bottom line is that we should be wary of a "faith" that requires a total disconnect from reality - while God may call some of us to demonstrate such a faith the chances are most of us aren't going to be praying for fire from heaven. The hope of things unseen can describe our place in heaven as much as the things we might like to see on earth.
People can become disappointed with God because they put their faith in something that He never promised He would do. When that certain something doesn't materialize they will either blame themselves for having little faith or blame God for not doing what they thought God should do.
Had they taken the time to observe the passage in context and properly interpreted the meaning they would have recognized their fatal mistake.
 

tango

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People can become disappointed with God because they put their faith in something that He never promised He would do. When that certain something doesn't materialize they will either blame themselves for having little faith or blame God for not doing what they thought God should do.
Had they taken the time to observe the passage in context and properly interpreted the meaning they would have recognized their fatal mistake.

Very true - if God makes a promise we can be sure that God will keep the promise. But if God made a promise to someone else it doesn't automatically follow that we can stand on it, and if we slice and dice Scripture, stringing something together like a ransom note, and then stand on this "promise" we shouldn't be at all surprised if God doesn't honor the promise he never made.

I think the most brazen example I've seen of that was a church who ripped Job 22:28 out of context - "You will declare a thing and it will be established for you". They got busy declaring this and decreeing that. Perhaps unsurprisingly most of what they declared never came to pass, but every single time something happened that they could associate, however loosely, with one of their proclamations got practically shouted from the rooftops. Nobody seemed interested in understanding that God never even spoke those words - they were spoken by Eliphaz the Temmanite, and in Job 42:7 we get to see what God thought of what Eliphaz had to say.
 

popsthebuilder

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Perhaps it is just that you don't appreciate the point.

It's not the case that infants do not understand all the things of God perfectly--but that adults do!

How many adults actually do? I assure you that almost any teenager who memorizes some print material can be baptized in a congregation of a denomination that stands for "Believers Baptism." He does not have to understand much of anything about the Bible or of God or what a conversion experience is all about. No matter. He will be baptized.

The distinction between infants and such persons (or many people who are older, too) is a phony one.
Who mentioned infants?

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pinacled

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In The Begining.

My favorite as to being a part of everyones testimony in the Holy One of Yisrayl.
And so the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord.

Later, Yeshua appeared to the Eleven as they were eating, and he reproached them for their lack of (Faith)trust and their spiritual insensitivity in not having believed those who had seen him after he had risen.
15 Then he said to them,
“As you go throughout the world, proclaim the Good News to all creation. 16 Whoever trusts and is immersed will be saved; whoever does not trust will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who do trust: in my name they will drive out demons, speak with new tongues, 18 not be injured if they handle snakes or drink poison, and heal the sick by laying hands on them.”

baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Holy_Spirit/holy_spirit.html
Holy Spirit (Ruach Ha'qadosh
קְדשִׁ֣ים(qadosh)

The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord, and the knowledge of the holy ones is understanding. יתְּחִלַּ֣ת חָ֖כְמָה יִרְאַ֣ת יְהוָ֑ה וְדַ֖עַת קְדשִׁ֣ים בִּינָֽה:

19 So then, after he had spoken to them, the Lord Yeshua was taken up into heaven and sat at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and proclaimed everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the message by the accompanying signs.


“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and frustrate the intelligence of the intelligent.”[a]



Where does that leave the philosopher, the Torah-teacher, or any of today’s thinkers? Hasn’t God made this world’s wisdom look pretty foolish? 21 For God’s wisdom ordained that the world, using its own wisdom, would not come to know him. Therefore God decided to use the “nonsense” of what we proclaim as his means of saving those who come to trust in it. 22 Precisely because Jews ask for signs and Greeks try to find wisdom, 23 we go on proclaiming a Messiah executed on a stake as a criminal! To Jews this is an obstacle, and to Greeks it is nonsense; 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, this same Messiah is God’s power and God’s wisdom! 25 For God’s “nonsense” is wiser than humanity’s “wisdom.”

And God’s “weakness” is stronger than humanity’s “strength.” 26 Just look at yourselves, brothers — look at those whom God has called! Not many of you are wise by the world’s standards, not many wield power or boast noble birth. 27 But God chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise; God chose what the world considers weak in order to shame the strong; 28 and God chose what the world looks down on as common or regards as nothing in order to bring to nothing what the world considers important; 29 so that no one should boast before God. 30 It is his doing that you are united with the Messiah Yeshua. He has become wisdom for us from God, and righteousness and holiness and redemption as well! 31 Therefore — as the Tanakh says —

“Let anyone who wants to boast, boast about Adonai.”


But as for me, Heaven forbid that I should boast about anything except the execution-stake of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah! Through him, as far as I am concerned, the world has been put to death on the stake; and through him, as far as the world is concerned, I have been put to death on the stake.
 

atpollard

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Perhaps it is just that you don't appreciate the point.

It's not the case that infants do not understand all the things of God perfectly--but that adults do!

How many adults actually do? I assure you that almost any teenager who memorizes some print material can be baptized in a congregation of a denomination that stands for "Believers Baptism." He does not have to understand much of anything about the Bible or of God or what a conversion experience is all about. No matter. He will be baptized.

The distinction between infants and such persons (or many people who are older, too) is a phony one.
What is the Biblical requirement to be saved?
 

Albion

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Who mentioned infants?

You, for one. My point was that this business of dividing up the human species on the basis of age for purposes of being eligible to receive the things of God is overwhelmingly arbitrary.
 

popsthebuilder

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You, for one. My point was that this business of dividing up the human species on the basis of age for purposes of being eligible to receive the things of God is overwhelmingly arbitrary.
I'm not sure that I disagree.

I only stated that a child should be able to grasp and explain the Gospel of salvation; do to simplicity of such; not related to any age of baptism or whatever else you may be thinking of.


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Albion

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I'm not sure that I disagree.

I only stated that a child should be able to grasp and explain the Gospel of salvation....

But there is no reason to take that position. Parents of young children make many, many decisions for them that are beneficial and effective. I used the example of inoculations against dread diseases. Are children supposed to understand immunology before they receive their shots? If they do receive them before that, are the shots inoperable?
 

popsthebuilder

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But there is no reason to take that position. Parents of young children make many, many decisions for them that are beneficial and effective. I used the example of inoculations against dread diseases. Are children supposed to understand immunology before they receive their shots? If they do receive them before that, are the shots inoperable?
You are veering off topic friend.

How is that pitting faith against reason?

Further; how does that have anything to do with a child being able to understand the Gospel?



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Josiah

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You are veering off topic friend.

How is that pitting faith against reason?

Further; how does that have anything to do with a child being able to understand the Gospel?


NO ONE is capable of understanding the Gospel. That's what the Bible specifically, verbatim states. NO ONE. The Holy Spirit must first give them spiritual life, faith, regeneration; FIRST God must give them faith, FIRST God must give them life. Now that they are a Christian by the free gift of God, now that they are regenerated by the free gift of God, now that they are born again by the free gift of God - THEN they can receieve the Word. Thus, no one can come to faith by understanding the Gospel because NO unbeliever is CAPABLE of it - at all. NO ONE. Not the one minute old baby born with severe Downs Syndrome, not the 45 year old woman with an IQ of 200 and 3 Ph.D.'s and has memorized every word of the Bible. NEITHER is capable of understanding a thing without FIRST becoming a Christian. "NO one is able to understand God until the Holy Spirit enligtens them." Wanna see what people come up with without the Holy Spirit first making them a Christian? Study Hinduism....



- Josiah




.
 
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popsthebuilder

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NO ONE is capable of understanding the Gospel. That's what the Bible specifically, verbatim states. NO ONE. The Holy Spirit must first give them spiritual life, faith, regeneration; FIRST God must give them faith, FIRST God must give them life. Now that they are a Christian by the free gift of God, now that they are regenerated by the free gift of God, now that they are born again by the free gift of God - THEN they can receieve the Word. Thus, no one can come to faith by understanding the Gospel because NO unbeliever is CAPABLE of it - at all. NO ONE. Not the one minute old baby born with severe Downs Syndrome, not the 45 year old woman with an IQ of 200 and 3 Ph.D.'s and has memorized every word of the Bible. NEITHER is capable of understanding a thing without FIRST becoming a Christian. "NO one is able to understand God until the Holy Spirit enligtens them." Wanna see what people come up with without the Holy Spirit first making them a Christian? Study Hinduism....



- Josiah




.
Can you show where the bible expressly states that none can know or understand the Gospel of salvation please?

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psalms 91

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NO ONE is capable of understanding the Gospel. That's what the Bible specifically, verbatim states. NO ONE. The Holy Spirit must first give them spiritual life, faith, regeneration; FIRST God must give them faith, FIRST God must give them life. Now that they are a Christian by the free gift of God, now that they are regenerated by the free gift of God, now that they are born again by the free gift of God - THEN they can receieve the Word. Thus, no one can come to faith by understanding the Gospel because NO unbeliever is CAPABLE of it - at all. NO ONE. Not the one minute old baby born with severe Downs Syndrome, not the 45 year old woman with an IQ of 200 and 3 Ph.D.'s and has memorized every word of the Bible. NEITHER is capable of understanding a thing without FIRST becoming a Christian. "NO one is able to understand God until the Holy Spirit enligtens them." Wanna see what people come up with without the Holy Spirit first making them a Christian? Study Hinduism....



- Josiah




.

Funny, I thought the Holy Spirit was to be our guide and teacher concerning the Word of God and would teach us
 

Lamb

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Funny, I thought the Holy Spirit was to be our guide and teacher concerning the Word of God and would teach us

That's in his quoted post.
 

Josiah

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Funny, I thought the Holy Spirit was to be our guide and teacher concerning the Word of God and would teach us

Which is what I said. NO unbeliever is capable of understanding the things of God (even in tiny part) - REGARDLESS of age, IQ, education, conscienceness, race, color, gender or anything else; REGARDLESS of being 2 days old or 42 years old, regardless of having an IQ of 50 or 500. NO ONE. First the Holy Spirit needs to give us life, regenerate us, grant us faith.... and with that comes the Holy Spirit.... and yes, THEN - as a Christian with faith and life and the Holy Spirit - we can understand, at least to the degree we NEED to (we will NEVER wrap our puny brains around all the things of God.... if that were true, all Christians would know all things entotal and none of us would disagree with no other on anything nor need to ever read or study the Bible cuz we'd all know everything).
 

Albion

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popsthebuilder

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That is what the following sentence does:
Nonsense; faith in GOD is easy to expound on; a child can understand it quite simply.

It is not contrary to reason or logic or understanding, nor is it limited to such.

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Albion

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Well, you asked and I answered.

There's no need for you to think it was an invitation to a debate.
 

popsthebuilder

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Well, you asked and I answered.

There's no need for you to think it was an invitation to a debate.

Oh; I'm not attempting to debate really; just conversate.

We can disagree without fighting.



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