Passive Righteousness

[user1234]

Love is to be without hypochrisy.
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love.
[size=+2]HELLO[/size]
I guess with God, He can give us the gift of the ability to hear and respond to Him and His gift, but He doesn't force us to accept Him and reply in love.

And with ppl, we can't force each other to hear and/or respond to each other either, even if God commands it.

I recall Jesus going to a Jewish festival where the Jews believed in the coming Messiah. He then asked someone if he wanted healing from his affliction. He didn't say do you want to ask me into your heart. He healed the person of his affliction. The person trusted in the coming of the Messiah so your proof of decision theology doesn't fit here with that verse.

It's not decision theology.
At least mine isnt, I dont think Ima's is , either, but let her say.
All I'm saying is God doesn't FORCE a person to be saved.
No, it is NOT by works of righteousness which WE have done. He chose to come into the world, go to the cross, pay for our sins.
HE did that. Then HE CHOSE the 'foolishness' of preaching, the 'foolishness' of the cross, even, to be the means to save us. He brought the Word to us, He quickened us to hear it...faith comes by HEARING The Word of God.
There are many that did not receive Him, many that did not accept this Way of salvation, by FAITH ALONE. They want their religious works, and that can include everything from Jewish OT law, ceremony, works, to modern-day christian works like water-baptism, communion elements, titheing, good deeds, turning from sin, obedience to some undefined standard, and on and on......
But to as many as received Him, to them He gave power to become the sons of God .... Even to them that BELIEVE on His name.
Believe. Faith. Yes, it's a gift. Yes ... God so loved the world, He GAVE His only begotten Son, that whosoever ...BELIEVES... in Him should not perish, but HAVE everlasting life.

Gotta run...maybe be back later. Peace.

 

[Josiah]

Hi. Not sure where youre getting sanctification from my post, if thats what you meant in your reply to it.

Jesus died for our sins ... ALL of them, and rose from the grave. BELIEVING that, trusting in Him, IS SALVATION. That's justification, Not sanctification.

Agreed. ANYTHING we do (cuz we're now alive and able to think/say/do/feel/live) is a result of justification - and thus is sanctification. As Lamm pointed out, a different subject for a different thread.

Believing...THAT's how the gift is appropriated...By FAITH.

Agreed. Justification is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (one inseparable truth) - and it's all "the gift of God lest any should boast."

He doesnt FORCE ppl into believing in Him

PERHAPS although there is NOTHING in Scripture that remotely states that....

I was GIVEN life on January 23, 1988 (well... I'd claim 9 months before that but let's move on). It wasn't FORCED on me but it was GIVEN to me. I don't agree that these are contradictions or conflicts.

My point is that love is not something God FORCES us to do.

Again, while there is nothing in Scripture that remotely teaches that, I"m okay with it..... I just don't agree that that in any way suggests that Christianity is wrong and that Jesus is not the Savior but just an Offerer, that God doesn't give life but rather commands us to take it (but some leave it). Again.... God GAVE me physical life.... I had NOTHING to do with my coming to life... but God didn't FORCE it upon me like some meanie.

And I know you're not saying that, Lämm, but I'm just saying that's what that kind of 'salvation-by-non-compliance' can imply or lead ppl to believe... salvation by force, and that's not love.

... except Lamm is NOT the ones INSISTING that self has a divine MANDATE to make God seem logical to us, a MANDATE to take what God said (AND DIDN'T say) - and extend it to conclusions that we like (or don't). Lamm is among those saying we should say what God does - and leave it at that. If what we end up with doesn't connect all the dots or isn't something all can wrap their puny, limited, fallen, ignorant brains around - that's okay, we are called to be stewards of the MYSTERIES of God, not Correctors and Completors of God to save God from looking silly and illogical or just incomplete. I think what Lamm and others are saying is that the modern THEORIES these Correctors and Completors have come up with actually contradicts a mess of Scriptures and threatens (if not destroys) the Gospel: Jesus is the Savior, God gives life, justification is the free gift of God not because of our works lest any have any reason to point to self.




.

 

[Lamb]

Here is the difference of passive and active:

Jesus giving life to Lazarus (passively received)
Lazarus walking out of the cave (actively doing)

Does that help? We contribute nothing to our reception of Christ's righteousness just like Adam contributed nothing when God breathed life into him or Lazarus returning to life.

 

[Lamb]

It's not decision theology.
At least mine isnt, I dont think Ima's is , either, but let her say.
All I'm saying is God doesn't FORCE a person to be saved.
No, it is NOT by works of righteousness which WE have done. He chose to come into the world, go to the cross, pay for our sins.
HE did that. Then HE CHOSE the 'foolishness' of preaching, the 'foolishness' of the cross, even, to be the means to save us. He brought the Word to us, He quickened us to hear it...faith comes by HEARING The Word of God.
There are many that did not receive Him, many that did not accept this Way of salvation, by FAITH ALONE. They want their religious works, and that can include everything from Jewish OT law, ceremony, works, to modern-day christian works like water-baptism, communion elements, titheing, good deeds, turning from sin, obedience to some undefined standard, and on and on......
But to as many as received Him, to them He gave power to become the sons of God .... Even to them that BELIEVE on His name.
Believe. Faith. Yes, it's a gift. Yes ... God so loved the world, He GAVE His only begotten Son, that whosoever ...BELIEVES... in Him should not perish, but HAVE everlasting life.

Gotta run...maybe be back later. Peace.

Did God force Adam to breathe?

 

[Imalive]

It's not decision theology.
At least mine isnt, I dont think Ima's is , either, but let her say.
All I'm saying is God doesn't FORCE a person to be saved.
No, it is NOT by works of righteousness which WE have done. He chose to come into the world, go to the cross, pay for our sins.
HE did that. Then HE CHOSE the 'foolishness' of preaching, the 'foolishness' of the cross, even, to be the means to save us. He brought the Word to us, He quickened us to hear it...faith comes by HEARING The Word of God.
There are many that did not receive Him, many that did not accept this Way of salvation, by FAITH ALONE. They want their religious works, and that can include everything from Jewish OT law, ceremony, works, to modern-day christian works like water-baptism, communion elements, titheing, good deeds, turning from sin, obedience to some undefined standard, and on and on......
But to as many as received Him, to them He gave power to become the sons of God .... Even to them that BELIEVE on His name.
Believe. Faith. Yes, it's a gift. Yes ... God so loved the world, He GAVE His only begotten Son, that whosoever ...BELIEVES... in Him should not perish, but HAVE everlasting life.

Gotta run...maybe be back later. Peace.

I really dont care how they call it but the mom from the girl that got saved w christmas, just got saved too!! Revival is starting. Yay!! Oh I promised to be passive. Sorry. I knew I shouldnt say that. I cant.

 

[user1234]

:disgonbegood: ound:

Yay for that lady! Ty Jesus!

 

[Josiah]

Here is the difference of passive and active:

Jesus giving life to Lazarus (passively received)
Lazarus walking out of the cave (actively doing)

Does that help? We contribute nothing to our reception of Christ's righteousness just like Adam contributed nothing when God breathed life into him or Lazarus returning to life.

Well put.

And obviously, Lazarus coming out of the tomb was because Lazarus had been GIVEN life.... not because a DEAD man chose to give self life. Yes, Jesus commanded "come out!" (so that once alive, he'd be able to ear and do) but his coming to life was not the result of a DEAD man having good functional ears and a DEAD man choosing to obey.... he was GIVEN life and so could ear and obey. The GIVING life (the miracle and gift of life) is justification, the hearing and obeying belong to sanctification. Sanctification is irrelevant in the case of those still dead.

 

[MennoSota]

What does that have to do with anything?

Even the events that lead up to me hoping on GOD, that where seemingly by my own hand, where foreknown and willed by GOD that I would come to hope on Him.

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Perhaps I misunderstood your earlier post. It seemed you were advocating that you had a choice in God's pardon and redemption of your sins. I am making the point that it is God alone who chooses and wills to pardon us.

 

[MennoSota]

Then God just OFFERS the dead person something. In that case, God isn't the Savior but the Offerer. Jesus isn't the Savior. It's not mercy or grace or Jesus or the Cross. God doesn't give anything, just commands. It's Law. It's the dead choosing. Pure works righteousness on the part of the dead.

If it is an offer, then it isn't really a gift. A gift is given regardless of whether the person asks for it or not.

 

[psalms 91]

If it is an offer, then it isn't really a gift. A gift is given regardless of whether the person asks for it or not.

Given yes, opened and accepted maybe not, say I am rich and offer 100 to everyone in a town, if they accept then they get it if not nope

 

[MennoSota]

Given yes, opened and accepted maybe not, say I am rich and offer 100 to everyone in a town, if they accept then they get it if not nope

But the gift is already yours by God's choice.
Salvation is given by God's choice. You are adopted by God...by God's choice.
What you do with your position as a child of God is your choice. That is what Paul is getting at in 1 Corinthians 3 when he says our offering can be gold, silver and precious stones or wood, hay and stubble.
Our obedience as a child of God is something we control. Our actually becoming children of God is something that only God decides. You cannot accept your adoption nor reject it. God either chooses to adopt you or he doesn't.

 

[Lamb]

Given yes, opened and accepted maybe not, say I am rich and offer 100 to everyone in a town, if they accept then they get it if not nope

God does direct deposit. It's in your account and yours. If you decide to throw it away that's your fault but you can't make it any more real by using the money in there.

 

[Josiah]

If it is an offer, then it isn't really a gift. A gift is given regardless of whether the person asks for it or not.

Agreed.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Then God just OFFERS the dead person something. In that case, God isn't the Savior but the Offerer. Jesus isn't the Savior. It's not mercy or grace or Jesus or the Cross. God doesn't give anything, just commands. It's Law. It's the dead choosing. Pure works righteousness on the part of the dead.

Is it valid to think that one has a change of heart prior to the gift of salvation. Why or why not please using scriptural reference please.

I ask you because I value your knowledged opinion. That in no way that I don't want anyone else's opinion on the matter.

Thanks,

peace

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[Lamb]

Is it valid to think that one has a change of heart prior to the gift of salvation. Why or why not please using scriptural reference please.

I ask you because I value your knowledged opinion. That in no way that I don't want anyone else's opinion on the matter.

Thanks,

peace

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Here are a variety of verses from both old and new testaments that speak of the unbeliever not being able to comprehend...that means that there is no change of heart because a change of heart means a change to God. Unbelievers cannot bring themselves to God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.


1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Isaiah 44:18 They do not know, nor do they understand, for He has smeared over their eyes so that they cannot see and their hearts so that they cannot comprehend.

Ezekial 12:2 "Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.

John 1:5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Matthew 13:13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Luke 8:10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Here are a variety of verses from both old and new testaments that speak of the unbeliever not being able to comprehend...that means that there is no change of heart because a change of heart means a change to God. Unbelievers cannot bring themselves to God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.


1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Isaiah 44:18 They do not know, nor do they understand, for He has smeared over their eyes so that they cannot see and their hearts so that they cannot comprehend.

Ezekial 12:2 "Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.

John 1:5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Matthew 13:13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Luke 8:10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

That isn't really what I asked Ms. Lamm.


To me unbeliever is knowing hypocrite and not the ignorant.
But thank you for the verses.

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[Lamb]

You asked Is it valid to think that one has a change of heart prior to the gift of salvation.

No change of heart (which is a change toward God) can happen outside of God turning that person to Him first because it is foolishness.

Unbelievers can have sorrow for their sins and do the right thing here on earth. But that's not what repentance is. Repentance has two parts. One is contrition and the other is by faith turning to God.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You asked Is it valid to think that one has a change of heart prior to the gift of salvation.

No change of heart (which is a change toward God) can happen outside of God turning that person to Him first because it is foolishness.

Unbelievers can have sorrow for their sins and do the right thing here on earth. But that's not what repentance is. Repentance has two parts. One is contrition and the other is by faith turning to God.

Repentance is to turn from/ stop.

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[Lamb]

Repentance is to turn from/ stop.

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AND to turn TO God. You just can't end it at turning away from sin. True repentance is the turning to God by faith.

 

[popsthebuilder]

AND to turn TO God. You just can't end it at turning away from sin. True repentance is the turning to God by faith.

Thats fine....but I am speaking of those rather ignorant of GOD and too speaking of turning to GOD in hope.

So can one turn to and or hope on the Lord prior to receiving faith that saves?

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