Passive Righteousness

[Lamb]

Hey another 666
john 666 hebrews 666

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

That's Law talk. But the Gospel says that our sins ARE forgiven. Gospel trumps law.

 

[Lamb]

Could we please stick to the topic and stop reaching into Sanctification? That's not what this thread is about and there are way too many pages from members going astray into that area.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Being freed from sin is not what we do for ourselves. That's the topic of this thread.

Our works after is sanctification and NOT what this thread is about.

Oh....what is hoping on the Lord to you? Not that I am saying it is a work of man or GOD nessissarily.

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[popsthebuilder]

All my sins were forgiven at the cross. Don't you believe that yours are too? Even your future ones? Jesus died before I was born. All my sins were there at the cross. I have faith in that forgiveness of sins.

I have faith that my sins were forgiven in my ignorance, but that now I know the truth I am expected to fight to live by that truth due to the fact that I love GOD in turn and choose to be faithful and a bond servant to the Lord until my end, and beyond if GOD'S will.

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[MennoSota]

I repented of what I knew was wrong in my life before I ever knew GOD. however; that is not to say that it wasn't the will of GOD for such to take place beforehand.

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Criminals can repent of their actions before they see the judge, but it is useless unless the Judge chooses to pardon them.
The Judge holds all the power and authority in the decision to pardon or condemn the criminal. The criminal stands at the mercy of the court.
The President of the US may pardon a criminal regardless of whether the criminal repents or not. As the final judge, s/he gets to make that decision. The criminal has no say in the matter.
How much greater is the Sovereign King of Creation? How much greater say does God have than a US President?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Criminals can repent of their actions before they see the judge, but it is useless unless the Judge chooses to pardon them.
The Judge holds all the power and authority in the decision to pardon or condemn the criminal. The criminal stands at the mercy of the court.
The President of the US may pardon a criminal regardless of whether the criminal repents or not. As the final judge, s/he gets to make that decision. The criminal has no say in the matter.
How much greater is the Sovereign King of Creation? How much greater say does God have than a US President?

What does that have to do with anything?

Even the events that lead up to me hoping on GOD, that where seemingly by my own hand, where foreknown and willed by GOD that I would come to hope on Him.

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[Josiah]

.... we may choose to destroy life, not to create it. I agree, one who is ALIVE may commit "spiritual suicide" but I don't agree that the DEAD may choose life.


Again, Consider we are in a morgue.... looking at a DEAD body.... you can say "Choose to come alive! Decide to live! Follow the living!" You can shout that forever, at a deafening level - and I assure you, the DEAD body won't do a thing. You can say "Jesus OFFERS you life!" You can shout that to the DEAD body all day long, as loud as you can and the DEAD isn't going to do a thing. God doesn't just hold an OFFER in front of us, God GIVES it to us. Not sending a DEAD person a check in the mail which of course he cannot fetch much less cash.... God does a direct deposit, God GIVES us life, God SAVES us, God ENLIVENS us, God is the GIVER of life (not offerer of life), Jesus is the Savior (not just the Possibility-Maker).



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Yes yes God does it and He does it by telling someone to make a choice

Then God just OFFERS the dead person something. In that case, God isn't the Savior but the Offerer. Jesus isn't the Savior. It's not mercy or grace or Jesus or the Cross. God doesn't give anything, just commands. It's Law. It's the dead choosing. Pure works righteousness on the part of the dead.

 

[user1234]

Love is to be without hypochrisy.
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love.
[size=+2]HELLO[/size]
I guess with God, He can give us the gift of the ability to hear and respond to Him and His gift, but He doesn't force us to accept Him and reply in love.

And with ppl, we can't force each other to hear and/or respond to each other either, even if God commands it.

No we can't force anyone to hear. Only if God opens them up to hearing and sometimes it just is not the right time.

I certainly wish that sanctification would stop from being brought into this thread.

Hi. Not sure where youre getting sanctification from my post, if thats what you meant in your reply to it.

Jesus died for our sins ... ALL of them, and rose from the grave. BELIEVING that, trusting in Him, IS SALVATION. That's justification, Not sanctification.

Believing...THAT's how the gift is appropriated...By FAITH.
He doesnt FORCE ppl into believing in Him, He doesnt force ppl into His Kingdom. He gives us grace to respond in love, but He doesnt force us.

I was pointing out how we can't force ppl to hear and respond to us either, even though God's commandment is to love one another, many just don't, and they choose ignorance or indifference instead of love.

The first point with God is justification.
The second, I guess you could call part of the sanctification process, ok, I'll grant you that, but that wasnt the point I was making.
My point is that love is not something God FORCES us to do.

First we must receive God/Jesus by FAITH, then we can love Him in return (and we do) and then love others, especially fellow saved believers (and we often dont, but we should).

God continues to say, Today is the day of salvation...Today, if you will hear His voice, harden not your heart, but receive the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.

He doesnt say, Today, I'm forcing you into my kingdom, now on your knees and obey, you rotten wretch! That sounds more like the false god allah and false prophet muhammed, or religious works-righteousness, but not the true Triune God of love in the Bible.
And I know you're not saying that, Lämm, but I'm just saying that's what that kind of 'salvation-by-non-compliance' can imply or lead ppl to believe... salvation by force, and that's not love.

 

[Lamb]

Hi. Not sure where youre getting sanctification from my post, if thats what you meant in your reply to it.

Jesus died for our sins ... ALL of them, and rose from the grave. BELIEVING that, trusting in Him, IS SALVATION. That's justification, Not sanctification.

Believing...THAT's how the gift is appropriated...By FAITH.
He doesnt FORCE ppl into believing in Him, He doesnt force ppl into His Kingdom. He gives us grace to respond in love, but He doesnt force us.

I was pointing out how we can't force ppl to hear and respond to us either, even though God's commandment is to love one another, many just don't, and they choose ignorance or indifference instead of love.

The first point with God is justification.
The second, I guess you could call part of the sanctification process, ok, I'll grant you that, but that wasnt the point I was making.
My point is that love is not something God FORCES us to do.

First we must receive God/Jesus by FAITH, then we can love Him in return (and we do) and then love others, especially fellow saved believers (and we often dont, but we should).

God continues to say, Today is the day of salvation...Today, if you will hear His voice, harden not your heart, but receive the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.

He doesnt say, Today, I'm forcing you into my kingdom, now on your knees and obey, you rotten wretch! That sounds more like the false god allah and false prophet muhammed, or religious works-righteousness, but not the true Triune God of love in the Bible.
And I know you're not saying that, Lämm, but I'm just saying that's what that kind of 'salvation-by-non-compliance' can imply or lead ppl to believe... salvation by force, and that's not love.

How can you ever believe and trust in Jesus and the forgiveness of sins without faith first being given to you by God? You can't.

You say it isn't forced upon you. But yet, God goes and does something to you without your permission so you can have eternal life. He opens your ears. He opens your eyes. He gives you faith and you can believe. Why use a hostile word such as force? Rens used the word enable. And by enabling us, it's God working in us without our permission and He does so because He loves us and wants to save us. Like a Father saving a child. A father doesn't ask the child if he wants to be saved.

 

[Imalive]

Then God just OFFERS the dead person something. In that case, God isn't the Savior but the Offerer. Jesus isn't the Savior. It's not mercy or grace or Jesus or the Cross. God doesn't give anything, just commands. It's Law. It's the dead choosing. Pure works righteousness on the part of the dead.

Great. Tell God that cause He said it all the time in the Bible for instance Deuteronomy and Acts.

 

[Lamb]

Back to my opening post where I quoted this.. "Passive righteousness is the vertical relationship between God and man. God does the work. The only contribution that man brings into this equation is sin. This is a righteousness that is alien; it is completely outside of ourselves."

The righteousness we have is the one given to us by God because of Jesus.

For by grace you have been saved through faith (something done to you and you receive passively)
this most excellent righteousness—that of faith, I mean—which God imputes to us through Christ, without works (something done to you and you receive passively)
those who have been brought from death to life (something done to you and you receive passively)

As Christians our righteousness is Christ's. We are covered in His righteousness. It is done to us and we are one with Him. Anything after that does not pertain to this topic. So many want to say...yes, God gives us faith but then....or God enables us but then. Stop right there. Look at the beginnings...God gives us faith or God enables us or even God opened my ears and eyes. Those are things being done to you. That's the point.

 

[Imalive]

How can you ever believe and trust in Jesus and the forgiveness of sins without faith first being given to you by God? You can't.

You say it isn't forced upon you. But yet, God goes and does something to you without your permission so you can have eternal life. He opens your ears. He opens your eyes. He gives you faith and you can believe. Why use a hostile word such as force? Rens used the word enable. And by enabling us, it's God working in us without our permission and He does so because He loves us and wants to save us. Like a Father saving a child. A father doesn't ask the child if he wants to be saved.

What is wrong w asking that? Jesus even asked a man if he wanted to be made whole. What do you want Me to do?
Ask and you shall be given. Its just how He works.

 

[Lamb]

What is wrong w asking that? Jesus even asked a man if he wanted to be made whole. What do you want Me to do?
Ask and you shall be given. Its just how He works.

I recall Jesus going to a Jewish festival where the Jews believed in the coming Messiah. He then asked someone if he wanted healing from his affliction. He didn't say do you want to ask me into your heart. He healed the person of his affliction. The person trusted in the coming of the Messiah so your proof of decision theology doesn't fit here with that verse.

 

[Imalive]

I recall Jesus going to a Jewish festival where the Jews believed in the coming Messiah. He then asked someone if he wanted healing from his affliction. He didn't say do you want to ask me into your heart. He healed the person of his affliction. The person trusted in the coming of the Messiah so your proof of decision theology doesn't fit here with that verse.

Peter said in Acts save yourself from this wicked generation. Repent. Get baptized. Now although He said that and they did that He still saved em. It was not their own good works. It was just a work of His given faith. But if you take this passive stuff too far and do not say to ppl: confess your sins and repent and get baptized and then He saves you, then you get those ppl here in Holland in those heavy reformed churches who apathically wait ages til maybe some day God is gonna save em if they are elected.
And if you take it too far the other way maybe ppl say: i am so good. i saved myself. I helped Him cuz He couldnt do it. Actually I've never heard anyone say that.

 

[Lamb]

Peter said in Acts save yourself from this wicked generation. Repent. Get baptized. Now although He said that and they did that He still saved em. It was not their own good works. It was just a work of His given faith. But if you take this passive stuff too far and do not say to ppl: confess your sins and repent and get baptized and then He saves you, then you get those ppl here in Holland in those heavy reformed churches who apathically wait ages til maybe some day God is gonna save em if they are elected.
And if you take it too far the other way maybe ppl say: i am so good. i saved myself. I helped Him cuz He couldnt do it. Actually I've never heard anyone say that.

The big confusion you have and I see it in others as well is not understanding that "Passive Righteousness" is not saying you are passive as a believer.

You still confuse justification with sanctification. We cannot confess our sins and want forgiveness without first God giving us faith in order to trust that He will forgive them. Repentance has 2 parts and an unbeliever cannot repent. Only after God gives faith can someone be truly repentant. Our receiving faith is passive. What we do once we have faith is active. You and others here are so intent on looking at only the active side that you deny the passive initial faith being given by God to us EVEN WHILE SAYING HE'S DOING IT.

 

[Lamb]

From the link in the OP

This alien righteousness, instilled in us without our works by grace alone—while the Father, to be sure, inwardly draws us to Christ—is set opposite original sin, likewise alien, which we acquire without our works by birth alone. Christ daily drives out the old Adam more and more in accordance with the extent to which faith and knowledge of Christ grow. - Martin Luther

This is why Romans describes man by saying, “No one is righteous - not even one.”

 

[Lamb]

Also from the link in the OP

The passive righteousness we have freely through faith; active righteousness requires that we serve those around us in the places that God places us.
Why this distinction matters?

A proper understanding of these two kinds of righteousness is important because we must not confuse the two.

If we confuse the two and think that active righteousness establishes our relationship with God, we will trust in ourselves for salvation. Instead of relying solely on God in the vertical relationship, we will find ourselves relying on our own ability to follow the commandments or serve our neighbors.

If we confuse the two and think that passive righteousness carries over from our vertical relationship into our horizontal relationships, we will end up ignoring the needs of our neighbors. When we ignore active righteousness, we ignore our callings to our family, to our communities, and in our careers.

Instead we must see these two kind of righteousness clearly. In our relationship with God, we are recipients. We, like beggars, receive the gifts that only God can give. And in relationship with the world, we actively seek to do good and serve our neighbors. And these two kinds of righteousness, while distinct, are also deeply connected.

 

[Imalive]

The big confusion you have and I see it in others as well is not understanding that "Passive Righteousness" is not saying you are passive as a believer.

You still confuse justification with sanctification. We cannot confess our sins and want forgiveness without first God giving us faith in order to trust that He will forgive them. Repentance has 2 parts and an unbeliever cannot repent. Only after God gives faith can someone be truly repentant. Our receiving faith is passive. What we do once we have faith is active. You and others here are so intent on looking at only the active side that you deny the passive initial faith being given by God to us EVEN WHILE SAYING HE'S DOING IT.

No I dont deny that. Its 2 sides of the same coin.

 

[Lamb]

No I dont deny that. Its 2 sides of the same coin.

This thread is about the righteousness you have that is given to you by God. You did nothing to earn it. You did not even ask for it. It is given when God gives us faith. Unbelievers do not ask for faith. They want nothing to do with God. The OP states that we don't bring anything into the relationship but our sin. So it is God who initiates and it is God who gives faith. It is God who gives us Christ's righteousness. We receive. That's all we do. Anything after that is considered active and is concerning Sanctification which can go in another thread that you or Bill or pops or tango or Snerfle choose to create.

 

[Imalive]

This thread is about the righteousness you have that is given to you by God. You did nothing to earn it. You did not even ask for it. It is given when God gives us faith. Unbelievers do not ask for faith. They want nothing to do with God. The OP states that we don't bring anything into the relationship but our sin. So it is God who initiates and it is God who gives faith. It is God who gives us Christ's righteousness. We receive. That's all we do. Anything after that is considered active and is concerning Sanctification which can go in another thread that you or Bill or pops or tango or Snerfle choose to create.

Okay. I promise to be passive in this thread then.