annihilationism

[Andrew]

I don't think that fires, smoke, etc is the obvious way to describe the absence of God. Not at all. And definitely not, coming then after the many scriptural references to hell as a place of horror.

As you can see I can hardly bare the thought of hell... all emotion derives from either Fear or Love, God is Love and separation from it is pure Fear.. that I can accept

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[Albion]

As you can see I can hardly bare the thought of hell... all emotion derives from either Fear or Love, God is Love and separation from it is pure Fear.. that I can accept

Yes, I know that you can hardly bear the thought. That's not uncommon; many people feel the same way...and for good reason.

I learned a long time ago, however, that it is pointless for me to create my own religion--which is what we do when we decide what it is that we would like the Almighty to be or do, and only then agree to believe in him after we have made him acceptable to us.

I would advise anyone to be careful about accidentally falling into that frame of mind.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Paradise was in the earth then.

Scripture please

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[Andrew]

The OT mentions perish a lot. There was no everlasting life in the OT

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[Stravinsk]

The OT mentions perish a lot. There was no everlasting life in the OT

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The answer to the question of man's "eternal soul" ("living" in Hell or living in Heaven) is right in genesis first few chapters. God said on the day they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they will die. On the day. Not the day after, or hundreds of years after as Adam lived many hundreds of years. Nope, on the day.

Adam and Eve died on the day they disobeyed God just like God said they would. Since it was not their bodies that died on that day, the death must refer to something else.

The serpent says two things to Eve. It's the discerning reader's job to figure out which or both were a lie.

Btw - accepting this also means rejecting Saul/Paul's teaching that sin is physically inherited, which is a teaching that places sin in the hands of God through physical inheritance, not man on his own choices in life.

 

[Albion]

The answer to the question of man's "eternal soul" ("living" in Hell or living in Heaven) is right in genesis first few chapters. God said on the day they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they will die. On the day. Not the day after, or hundreds of years after as Adam lived many hundreds of years. Nope, on the day.

Adam and Eve died on the day they disobeyed God just like God said they would. Since it was not their bodies that died on that day, the death must refer to something else.

Customarily, this is understood to mean that on that day they became mortal, having previously been immortal in their physical forms. As God told them, they would have to bear children in pain, work for their existence, AND DIE.

You say that they died that very day, but you also wrote that what happened was that God said that they will die. The true meaning is more like saying they became "dead men walking," as we might word it these days.

 

[NewCreation435]

Customarily, this is understood to mean that on that day they became mortal, having previously been immortal in their physical forms. As God told them, they would have to bear children in pain, work for their existence, AND DIE.

You say that they died that very day, but you also wrote that what happened was that God said that they will die. The true meaning is more like saying they became "dead men walking," as we might word it these days.

Couldn't it simply mean that the dying process started at that point? In other words, all the millions of cells that make up the human body. All the organs and tissues and muscles that make up the body. Before they weren't dying but were immortal. But, when sin entered into the world so did death because the wages of sin is death.

 

[Stravinsk]

Couldn't it simply mean that the dying process started at that point? In other words, all the millions of cells that make up the human body. All the organs and tissues and muscles that make up the body. Before they weren't dying but were immortal. But, when sin entered into the world so did death because the wages of sin is death.

Now just imagine for a second that Adam and Eve didn't sin. Eve said no to the serpent, they multiplied as per God's command on the 6th day, and replenished the earth. Death just didn't happen.

If we've got our thinking caps on, do a little math. Adam and Eve would still be with us and the earth would be filled trillions upon trillions of people.

So as a believer in immortality (of the body and soul) from the beginning - which coincides with Saul/Paul's take on death and sin, one sort of has to accept that either the earth was going to be overpopulated in short order if death didn't happen, OR that "death and sin" were part of God's plan.

Or

The assumption of bodily immortality of Adam and Eve is wrong. Therefore, if physical death isn't being spoken of, then it's something else.



John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Was Christ wrong? After all He also taught He would die and did in fact die.

Edit: Post thought. In Genesis 6:3 God reduces how long man will live. The shortening of life span from hundreds of years to 120 years mentions nothing about dying sooner due to some sort of inherited sin nature.

Edit2: Infants who die of sudden death syndrome or some other reason also must have died with some relation to Adam and Eve's sin, right? While mass murderers can live 50,60 70 years or more. That's what follows when you believe Saul/Paul!

Lovely.

 

[Andrew]

Couldn't it simply mean that the dying process started at that point? In other words, all the millions of cells that make up the human body. All the organs and tissues and muscles that make up the body. Before they weren't dying but were immortal. But, when sin entered into the world so did death because the wages of sin is death.

Abel being the first premature death... the rest gradually inherited shorter and shorter lifespans... On a side note I heard theory on the caveman bones, they werent cave men at all but rather the bones of the thrice centurions, people who lived in the time of genesis. Apparently the bones have characteristics of old age progressions (imagine if we lived to 300 years old what we would look like? like a hunched over caveman)
Getting off the subject no?

 

[Stravinsk]

Abel being the first premature death... the rest gradually inherited shorter and shorter lifespans... On a side note I heard theory on the caveman bones, they werent cave men at all but rather the bones of the thrice centurions, people who lived in the time of genesis. Apparently the bones have characteristics of old age progressions (imagine if we lived to 300 years old what we would look like? like a hunched over caveman)
Getting off the subject no?

Sigh. Abel was murdered, he didn't die do to some inherited sin nature.

Also Genesis 6:3. God shortens man's lifespan in an instant. No gradual shorter and shorter lifespans. You made that up.

 

[NewCreation435]

Sigh. Abel was murdered, he didn't die do to some inherited sin nature.

Also Genesis 6:3. God shortens man's lifespan in an instant. No gradual shorter and shorter lifespans. You made that up.

No he's not. If you look at the progression of how long people lived it goes gradually lower. Genesis 6:3 isn't talking about that

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[Stravinsk]

No he's not. If you look at the progression of how long people lived it goes gradually lower. Genesis 6:3 isn't talking about that

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If you can find me someone who was born after this was spoken and lived past 120years, I'll concede the point. Noah and family were presumably already around and long lived. Joseph died at 110 and Moses at 120.

But go ahead. Maybe I missed something. List your progression.

Edit: Keep in mind Noah was 600 years old when the flood waters came: Genesis 7:6. He had sons and daughters and they were married also. So it's him, his children, his children's children etc.

 

[Stravinsk]

Couldn't it simply mean that the dying process started at that point? In other words, all the millions of cells that make up the human body. All the organs and tissues and muscles that make up the body. Before they weren't dying but were immortal. But, when sin entered into the world so did death because the wages of sin is death.

Abel being the first premature death... the rest gradually inherited shorter and shorter lifespans... On a side note I heard theory on the caveman bones, they werent cave men at all but rather the bones of the thrice centurions, people who lived in the time of genesis. Apparently the bones have characteristics of old age progressions (imagine if we lived to 300 years old what we would look like? like a hunched over caveman)
Getting off the subject no?

Sigh. Abel was murdered, he didn't die do to some inherited sin nature.

Also Genesis 6:3. God shortens man's lifespan in an instant. No gradual shorter and shorter lifespans. You made that up.

No he's not. If you look at the progression of how long people lived it goes gradually lower. Genesis 6:3 isn't talking about that

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I find this all very amusing. First the idea of gradual shorter lifespans is put forth to explain an apparently further reaching death that started with Adam and Eve.

Except, Noah lived 950 years and in that time had sons and daughters, who were also married. I guess the theory is not holding up so well at this point, lol.

Ok, but there was a gradual decrease in age at some point, right? Must have been in during Noah's family, and ONLY then, because at the end of Genesis we've got Joseph dying at 110.

So, the ever reaching Sin/Death theory resulting in lesser years lived only applies to one man's family, then stops. My gosh, am I glad to be in my 40's at this point...cuz if the Sin/Death thing continued and didn't start and stop in such a short period, I might have been lucky to just make it out of the crib!! ROFL.

 

[NewCreation435]

If you can find me someone who was born after this was spoken and lived past 120years, I'll concede the point. Noah and family were presumably already around and long lived. Joseph died at 110 and Moses at 120.

But go ahead. Maybe I missed something. List your progression.

Edit: Keep in mind Noah was 600 years old when the flood waters came: Genesis 7:6. He had sons and daughters and they were married also. So it's him, his children, his children's children etc.

You can look it up yourself.

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[Stravinsk]

You can look it up yourself.

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I did. It's not there. There is no gradual decrease in lifespan due to the sin nature as was suggested earlier. In fact, Noah, being many generations after Adam, actually outlived him by 20 years.

Grasping at straws.

 

[NewCreation435]

I did. It's not there. There is no gradual decrease in lifespan due to the sin nature as was suggested earlier. In fact, Noah, being many generations after Adam, actually outlived him by 20 years.

Grasping at straws.

I'm not looking stuff up for you

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[Stravinsk]

I'm not looking stuff up for you

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Lol, now why would you need to? You were the one that made this assertion:

No he's not. If you look at the progression of how long people lived it goes gradually lower. Genesis 6:3 isn't talking about that

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Hint - MOD who has shown very clearly on this board through various statements that you really don't like me, maybe you could show you have the sound judgement to just admit when you are mistaken.

 

[Imalive]

I did. It's not there. There is no gradual decrease in lifespan due to the sin nature as was suggested earlier. In fact, Noah, being many generations after Adam, actually outlived him by 20 years.

Grasping at straws.

Due to the sin nature? Due to the flood. The atmosphere changed. You see em gradually die earlier. Abraham still got quite old.

 

[NewCreation435]

Lol, now why would you need to? You were the one that made this assertion:




Hint - MOD who has shown very clearly on this board through various statements that you really don't like me, maybe you could show you have the sound judgement to just admit when you are mistaken.

There is no mistake. Adam and those early on lived 900 plus years those later lived progressively less
If you want to discuss personal issues then go to member services and start a thread.

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[Stravinsk]

There is no mistake. Adam and those early on lived 900 plus years those later lived progressively less
If you want to discuss personal issues then go to member services and start a thread.

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But you can't show it. You just keep stating it. When challenged, you need to "look it up". Thanks for illuminating the world how some people get their beliefs.

Member services to talk with you? No thanks. There are mods I would talk to in such an area, you aren't one of them.